Author Topic: Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp signs controversial 'heartbeat' bill into law  (Read 3683 times)

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Offline Elderberry

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Fox News By Caleb Parke 5/7/2019

Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp signed the "heartbeat" bill into law Tuesday morning.

Kemp kept his campaign promise in signing the bill, HB 481, technically called the "Living Infants Fairness and Equality (LIFE) Act," which will prohibit abortions in the state after a heartbeat is detected, as early as six weeks into a pregnancy. The law allows exceptions in the case of rape, incest, or if the life of the mother is in danger.

Before the signing of the bill, State Rep. Ed Setzler pointed to science, law, and the simple fact that common sense says a beating heart is a sign of life and those children should receive the full protection of the law. State Sen. Renee Unterman, a former nurse who ushered the bill through the state Senate, said she has waited her entire time as a legislator for this moment, calling it the "culmination of my political career."

"Georgia is a state that values life," Kemp said before putting his signature to the LIFE Act. "We stand up for those who are unable to speak for themselves."

More: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/georgia-gov-brian-kemp-signs-controversial-heartbeat-bill-into-law

Offline Elderberry

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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Hillary Clinton blast Georgia's 'heartbeat bill'

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/05/08/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-hillary-clinton-criticized-heartbeat-bill/1140744001/

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Progressives heavily criticized the signing of a Georgia bill that would make it illegal to receive an abortion after a heartbeat was detected in the womb, about six weeks into a pregnancy. Georgia lawmakers had passed the bill in April, but it did not become law until Governor Brian Kemp signed it on Monday.

The bill, which does not take effect until Jan. 1, 2020, will one of the most restrictive abortion bills in the country. Current Georgia state law allows abortions up until the 20th week of pregnancy.

Progressives slammed the bill on social media.

"Most of the men writing these bills don't know the first thing about a woman's body outside of the things they want from it. It's relatively common for a woman to have a late period + not be pregnant," Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y., wrote on Twitter.

"This is a backdoor ban," she continued, arguing that a potential abortion ban at six weeks of pregnancy would be equivalent to being two weeks late on a period — meaning that "this law ignores basic biology."

Offline Wingnut

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Offline Jazzhead

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This is unconstitutional and will never be implemented.  Bank on it.   
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Offline Hoodat

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This is unconstitutional and will never be implemented.  Bank on it.

What part of the Constitution does this violate?  Please be specific.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

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Offline Jazzhead

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What part of the Constitution does this violate?  Please be specific.

It deprives the woman of her essential liberty and right to self-determination.  What part of the Constitution gives any rights whatsoever, vis a vis the mother, to a six-week old fetus?   

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Offline Hoodat

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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Hillary Clinton blast Georgia's 'heartbeat bill'

What business of it is theirs?  They can have whatever abortion law they please in New York, and no one in Georgia will do a thing to stop them.  So when it comes to Georgia law, if you ain't from here, shut the hell up.  Amendment X, baby.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

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Offline Hoodat

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It deprives the woman of her essential liberty and right to self-determination.

Again, what part of the Constitution does the Georgia law violate?  Please be specific.



What part of the Constitution gives any rights whatsoever, vis a vis the mother, to a six-week old fetus?

I give up.  What part does that, not that that has a single thing to do with the Constitutionality of the new Georgia.  A better question would be, 'What prohibits Georgia from establishing its own abortion laws in light of the Tenth Amendment?'



If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Online dfwgator

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There's that word "Controversial" again.

Why is it that everything the Left opposes is "Controversial"?

Offline Wingnut

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There's that word "Controversial" again.

Why is it that everything the Left opposes is "Controversial"?
 

It is how they roll.
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Offline Jazzhead

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A better question would be, 'What prohibits Georgia from establishing its own abortion laws in light of the Tenth Amendment?'

If I have a right under the U.S. Constitution,  it cannot be denied by a State on the basis of the Tenth Amendment.

Georgia can regulate the abortion right guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution, but cannot take it away.   Think of the SCOTUS decision re handguns in Heller.   According to Heller, the Constitution says that a citizen's essential liberty includes the right of personal self defense.   Yet, the District of Columbia passed a law effectively banning the ownership of handguns, thereby depriving a city dweller of any effective means of protecting himself in his own home.   

A state has the right under the Tenth Amendment to regulate gun ownership, but not to make it impossible.   The Federal Constitution's right - found by means of a SCOTUS majority - to personal self defense trumps the State's ability to take such right away. 

Same goes for the abortion right.    Take the right away after viability, because the woman will by then have had at least 4 - 5 months to decide whether to exercise the right.  But after only six weeks?  The woman may not even know by then that she's pregnant.

The heartbeat bill is clearly unconstitutional.       
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Offline Hoodat

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Georgia can regulate the abortion right guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution, but cannot take it away.

Where in the US Constitution can I find this abortion right?  Please be specific.



Same goes for the abortion right.    Take the right away after viability, because the woman will by then have had at least 4 - 5 months to decide whether to exercise the right.

Whoa, wait just a minute here.  What does 'viability' have to do with this.  Either a woman has a Constitutional right to an abortion, or she does not.  By injecting 'viability' into the equation, you are clearly making up as you go since you have zero Constitutional basis to draw upon.


The heartbeat bill is clearly unconstitutional.     

Again, what part of the Constitution does this bill violate?  Please be specific.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline Smokin Joe

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This is unconstitutional and will never be implemented.  Bank on it.
You are saying a beating heart does not mean life? Really?

Seems to me that stopping a heartbeat, intentionally, means you killed it, whatever it was. (Something that transcends the species barrier). If it is genetically human, has a heartbeat, it must be alive, and human. A human life.

Why would you deny that human it's fundamental Rights for the convenience of another?

How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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It deprives the woman of her essential liberty and right to self-determination.  What part of the Constitution gives any rights whatsoever, vis a vis the mother, to a six-week old fetus?
She had the essential liberty and right to self-determination when she engaged in a sexual act without utilizing any of the variety of methods to prevent becoming pregnant. She had her self determination when she engaged in that sex act.
It isn't as if she hasn't had plenty of times to choose and prevent pregnancy.

But with conception, a line has been crossed, a genetically unique human has been formed. A new life.
You are only arguing for her ability to take that life, to kill that child in sacrifice for her lack of planning, to kill an innocent to atone for her actions.

Whatsamatter? Can't wait until they are born to toss the virgins into the volcano?

Sick puppy. **nononono*
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

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Whoa, wait just a minute here.  What does 'viability' have to do with this.  Either a woman has a Constitutional right to an abortion, or she does not.  By injecting 'viability' into the equation, you are clearly making up as you go since you have zero Constitutional basis to draw upon.

No,  every woman does not have a Constitutional right to an abortion.   She has the Constitutional right to choose the circumstances of her life.   If she can make that choice within the first four to five months of pregnancy,  before the fetus is viable,  then that choice is real and meaningful,  even if the State of Georgia then says her choice is cut off.   But if the State of Georgia insists she make that choice within the first month and a half of pregnancy,  perhaps even before she knows for sure she's pregnant,  then her choice has been effectively denied.

Just as the District of Columbia effectively denied a citizen's right to self defense in his own home by barring his ability to own a handgun.

Rights are not absolute, rights can be reasonably regulated.  But they cannot be denied entirely.   Not the gun right.  And not a woman's FUNDAMENTAL right to choose whether or not to reproduce.   
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 12:43:54 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Jazzhead

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She had the essential liberty and right to self-determination when she engaged in a sexual act without utilizing any of the variety of methods to prevent becoming pregnant. She had her self determination when she engaged in that sex act.
It isn't as if she hasn't had plenty of times to choose and prevent pregnancy.

But with conception, a line has been crossed, a genetically unique human has been formed. A new life.
You are only arguing for her ability to take that life, to kill that child in sacrifice for her lack of planning, to kill an innocent to atone for her actions.

Whatsamatter? Can't wait until they are born to toss the virgins into the volcano?

Sick puppy. **nononono*

You're making a moral judgment (a rather sexist one, but no matter).    You as an individual,  as a parent,  as a friend,  as a Christian, can make that moral judgement.   So, of course,  can God.   God in His infinite wisdom may condemn the woman who "couldn't keep her legs closed", or may extend to her His compassion when an unexpected pregnancy leaves her in poverty and partner-less.   You think the former,  I think the latter. 

But the bottom line is simple.   It is not the role of the State to make that moral judgement,  and deny at the point of a government gun a woman's most basic freedom to decide for herself whether to endure an unanticipated pregnancy.   

Make your moral case for the fetus, within the framework of a woman's liberty guaranteed by the Constitution.    The woman's right to choose shall not be infringed.   
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 12:51:56 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Hoodat

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No,  every woman does not have a Constitutional right to an abortion.

Glad to see you finally come around.


She has the Constitutional right to choose the circumstances of her life.

No one here has said otherwise.


If she can make that choice within the first four to five months of pregnancy,  .  .  .

Hold it right there.  If she is pregnant, then she has already exercised her "Constitutional right to choose the circumstances of her life".  And the consequence of her choice resulted in the creation of a wholly singular life.


.  .  .  before the fetus is viable .  .  .

Oh, so now we're back to that 'viability' thing?  Again, what is your Constitutional basis?  You cannot arbitrarily issue rights based on some made-up self-defined condition.  Again, either she has that right or she does not.  And according to your first sentence, she does not.



If she can make that choice within the first four to five months of pregnancy,  before the fetus is viable,  then that choice is real and meaningful,  even if the State of Georgia then says her choice is cut off.   But if the State of Georgia insists she make that choice within the first month and a half of pregnancy,  perhaps even before she knows for sure she's pregnant,  then her choice has been effectively denied.

Just as the District of Columbia effectively denied a citizen's right to self defense in his own home by barring his ability to own a handgun.

Rights are not absolute, rights can be reasonably regulated.  But they cannot be denied entirely.   Not the gun right.  And not a woman's FUNDAMENTAL right to choose whether or not to reproduce.



.  .  .  then that choice is real and meaningful  .  .  .

The choice is ALWAYS meaningful to the life that is destroyed.  Always, regardless of your own personal viability judgment.


.  .  .   even if the State of Georgia then says her choice is cut off.

What gives the State of Georgia to decide this?  (Hint: unlike your 'abortion' right, this right actually can be found in the Constitution)


But if the State of Georgia insists she make that choice within the first month and a half of pregnancy,  perhaps even before she knows for sure she's pregnant,  then her choice has been effectively denied.

Her choice to engage in sexual intercourse (with full knowledge that her action could lead to pregnancy), was not denied nor has it ever been denied by the State of Georgia.  And even with the new law, if a woman is late with her period, she can still get a pregnancy test and rush to a black neighborhood to find a Planned Parenthood clinic, and have that life inside of her terminated before anyone realizes it is a life.  Except that Planned Parenthood won't be able to charge as much for the abortion, and they won't get any good fetal tissue that they can sell.  They much prefer allowing the babies to grow bigger inside their hosts before they are harvested.


Rights are not absolute, rights can be reasonably regulated.  But they cannot be denied entirely.

Again, show me where in the Constitution I can find this right.


And not a woman's FUNDAMENTAL right to choose whether or not to reproduce.

No one is denying any woman that fundamental right.  When a woman (who has complete control over her body) chooses to allow a man to ejaculate inside of her, she is actively exercising a choice that can and will result in pregnancy.  It happens to be one of those 'we are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable' rights.  But when it comes to the destruction of another life, that is a power that falls upon the State.  (See:  Amendment X)
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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You're making a moral judgment (a rather sexist one, but no matter).    You as an individual,  as a parent,  as a friend,  as a Christian, can make that moral judgement.   So, of course,  can God.   God in His infinite wisdom may condemn the woman who "couldn't keep her legs closed", or may extend to her His compassion when an unexpected pregnancy leaves her in poverty and partner-less.   You think the former,  I think the latter. 

But the bottom line is simple.   It is not the role of the State to make that moral judgement,  and deny at the point of a government gun a woman's most basic freedom to decide for herself whether to endure an unanticipated pregnancy.

What a bunch of hogwash.  Are you really going to sit here and argue that a State does not have the right to outlaw murder, shoplifting, fraud, theft, assault, property rights, etc?  All are moral judgments.  Every single one of them.  The problem here is that you wish to impose your moral judgment on the rest of us while denying our right to shape our society through the establishment of our own laws.  There is a word for that.  It is called 'tyranny'.  So before you dismiss this, ask yourself this one question:  "Why are you unable to cite a single word of the Constitution that backs up your own moral imposition regarding the abortion right?"  Because I have shown you again and again and again the Constitutional basis for the right of the State of Georgia to regulate abortion.  And you have shown me nothing - nothing except your insistence that "abortion must remain legal" because you say so.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 02:08:18 pm by Hoodat »
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline Smokin Joe

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No,  every woman does not have a Constitutional right to an abortion.   She has the Constitutional right to choose the circumstances of her life.   If she can make that choice within the first four to five months of pregnancy,  before the fetus is viable,  then that choice is real and meaningful,  even if the State of Georgia then says her choice is cut off.   But if the State of Georgia insists she make that choice within the first month and a half of pregnancy,  perhaps even before she knows for sure she's pregnant,  then her choice has been effectively denied.

Just as the District of Columbia effectively denied a citizen's right to self defense in his own home by barring his ability to own a handgun.

Rights are not absolute, rights can be reasonably regulated.  But they cannot be denied entirely.   Not the gun right.  And not a woman's FUNDAMENTAL right to choose whether or not to reproduce.
The time to choose is before she becomes pregnant. That's all her life, she can do or not do what she pleases.
After she becomes pregnant, she HAS reproduced, past tense, and there is another life in the picture. Handguns have jack sh*t to do with this. She is the mother, or contracts for the killer. The baby doesn't have the means for self-defense, otherwise, I am sure it would fight being dismembered and shredded with every means available.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

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@Hoodat

I used viability as a lawful line of demarcation, but it is not the only one.  The states could choose to outlaw abortion after, say, 20 weeks (that's similar to how some European nations do it).    The point is to preserve a woman's meaningful ability to choose whether or not to continue with a pregnancy.    The right - like the individual gun right - can be regulated but not denied.   The heartbeat bill would ban abortion before the time a woman will know for sure she is pregnant and can make a decision.   It is, therefore, clearly unconstititutional. 

The Constitution is designed to address both that (i) we are endowed with certain individual liberties by our Creator, and (ii) the government's role is to preserve those liberties.   Some of those liberties are spelled out plainly in the Constitution, such as the freedom of speech and association,  but other similarly critical liberties are not,  but have been found to nevertheless be protected by the federal Constitution.   These include the right of personal privacy (the underpinning of the choice right) and the right to individual self defense.   Each of these rights is protected by reason of the Constitution's interpretation by the Supreme Court.    You individual right to own a gun for reasons of self defense is just as much Constitutionally protected by reason of the Heller decision as a woman's right to reproductive self-determination is Constitutionally protected by reason of Roe v. Wade.     

(The Constitution's protection of each of these rights is potentially at risk in the event these Court decisions were to be overturned,  which is why I've long advocated that they be codified.   It is no coincidence that the most contentious fault lines in our culture today are abortion and guns,  because both women and gun owners believe, with justification, that their precious rights are subject to the whims of the political winds.)

Hoodat,  I understand that you consider abortion to be a moral wrong, and demand the State enforce your moral perspective regarding the "rights" of a six-week old fetus.   But consider the damage that's been done by pro-lifers'  attempts to elevate a moral issue into a political one.     Far more abortions would be prevented if folks of good will could work together to educate women about what abortion is and to offer support to those who seek to do the right thing.  Unfortunately,  women feel justifiably threatened that a choice they must retain may be taken away - just as you feel threatened that your right to own a gun for your own defense has been politicized and is in danger of being denied.   
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 04:35:23 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Jazzhead

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The time to choose is before she becomes pregnant.

That's what you say, and you're welcome to your opinion.   But it is not up to the State to say.

The reality is that many abortions are the result of a partner's reaction to an unplanned pregnancy,  with the man leaving the woman and leaving her destitute, alone and without options.   Rather than demanding the State force her to bear an unwanted child under such circumstances,  why not band together with other like-minded folks to offer her financial and other support and assistance to do the right thing?    Wouldn't the pro-life movement be better received and appreciated if it focused on providing such support, rather than on taking a woman's rights away?   
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Offline Smokin Joe

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@Hoodat

I used viability as a lawful line of demarcation, but it is not the only one.  The states could choose to outlaw abortion after, say, 20 weeks (that's similar to how some European nations do it).    The point is to preserve a woman's meaningful ability to choose whether or not to continue with a pregnancy.    The right - like the individual gun right - can be regulated but not denied.   The heartbeat bill would ban abortion before the time a woman will know for sure she is pregnant and can make a decision.   It is, therefore, clearly unconstititutional. 
Oh, piffle.
Women know they are pregnant, especially the second and subsequent times, with exceptions. Morning sickness, absence of menses, etc. The baby will cause changes in everything from food input (cravings) to body chemistry which an EPT can detect as early as three weeks.

But deciding when to say you can kill the baby because the mother doesn't want to be a mom, well, what keeps that line from being extended through the terrible twos or some other age? Not one damned thing except you can hear them scream. So you don't think its okay to throw your kids in a woodchipper when they're five years old, why would you subject them to that when they're five months along?

Quote
The Constitution is designed to address both that (i) we are endowed with certain individual liberties by our Creator, and (ii) the government's role is to preserve those liberties.   Some of those liberties are spelled out plainly in the Constitution, such as the freedom of speech and association,  but other similarly critical liberties are not,  but have been found to nevertheless protected by the Constitution.   These include the right of personal privacy (the underpinning of the choice right) and the right to individual self defense.   Each of these rights is protected by reason of the Constitution's interpretation by the Supreme Court.    You individual right to own a gun for reasons of self defense is just as much Constitutionally protected by reason of the Heller decision as a woman's right to reproductive self-determination is Constitutionally protected by reason of Roe v. Wade.     

 Do you honestly think our Creator, who has known us since before we were formed, would say it's okay for you to shred that life at any time? The Constitution exists to protect the Rights of the weak in our society, not as an excuse to murder them. You simply cannot convince me that the men who wrote that document would have in any way ever intended the slaughter of 60 million of their fellow Americans in the name of convenience, nor that they would have ever intended for that alleged right to be inferred in that document nor the Bill of Rights.
 
Quote
(The Constitution's protection of each of these rights is potentially at risk in the event these Court decisions were to be overturned,  which is why I've long advocated that they be codified.   It is no coincidence that the most contentious fault lines in our culture today are abortion and guns,  because both women and gun owners believe, with justification, that their precious rights are subject to the whims of the political winds.)

There you go, conflating the natural right of self-defense with murder for convenience.
 
What about the precious rights of the 60,000,000 who have been murdered in this quest for convenience? Where is their right to self-defense? Aren't we the sort of culture who protects the weak among us? Otherwise, we have taken a great retrograde leap in our level of civilization.  The means have existed to prevent conception since well before the ruling of the few who have sanctioned this slaughter, claiming to find some Right in a document written by men who would never have sanctioned this slaughter. The time to choose is before conception, not after the fact. The right to choose whether or not to engage in sexual activity still exists, along with the Right to choose who to engage thus with. The ability to choose whether or not to conceive exists, and was even one of the flagship arguments for the imposition of Obamacare, despite the usurpation of the right to decide whether or not to purchase a service.

Quote
Hoodat,  I understand that you consider abortion to be a moral wrong, and demand the State enforce your moral perspective regarding the "rights" of a six-week old fetus.   But consider the damage that's been done by pro-lifers'  attempts to elevate a moral issue into a political one.     Far more abortions would be prevented if folks of good will could work together to educate women about what abortion is and to offer support to those who seek to do the right thing.  Unfortunately,  women feel justifiably threatened that a choice they must retain may be taken away - just as you feel threatened that your right to own a gun for your own defense has been politicized and is in danger of being denied.   
The Right to Keep and Bear Arms has been codified, directly, as a Right of the People.
That Right was discussed at length in the communications of the Federalists, the logic laid out. 

No such codification exists in the Constitution for abortion, no discussion of that alleged right, nor any support for that position was ever laid out in the founders' communications. It is a fabrication solely emanating from the eugenicists and others whose philosophies are in conflict with the whole concepts of Life and Liberty as expressed by the Founders.   The ruling in Roe v Wade is a stain on American Jurisprudence, a damned spot that won't wash out. Like typical liberals, though, those who were wrong, double down, time and again, claiming something that never was.

In the meantime, the slaughter continues.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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That's what you say, and you're welcome to your opinion.   But it is not up to the State to say.

The reality is that many abortions are the result of a partner's reaction to an unplanned pregnancy,  with the man leaving the woman and leaving her destitute, alone and without options.   Rather than demanding the State force her to bear an unwanted child under such circumstances,  why not band together with other like-minded folks to offer her financial and other support and assistance to do the right thing?    Wouldn't the pro-life movement be better received and appreciated if it focused on providing such support, rather than on taking a woman's rights away?
"Unplanned pregnancies" are preventable. Just as I noted above, and have been since well before Roe. One of the reasons given for the imposition of Obamacare was so Georgetown Law Students could afford common and inexpensive contraceptives.
Rather than have the State (us) sanction the wholesale slaughter of our fellow citizens, how about we ban that practice?
But support for those who choose life continues, and has cost the taxpayers of this nation fortunes, so that is a weak argument. It becomes a question of passing down the death sentence on an innocent for the irresponsibility of their parent, for the sake of convenience, far more often than not, using means of execution we would not use on the most heinous criminal duly convicted of their crimes.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Hoodat

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@Hoodat

I used viability as a lawful line of demarcation, but it is not the only one.

@Jazzhead

You used viability as a subjective term that you get to define to suit your purpose.  Nothing lawful about that.  No legal definition written anywhere.  Besides, there is already on record healthy surviving babies that pre-dated Roe's arbitrary lawless 'viability' rule.  Not that any of this has a thing to do with Georgia's right under the US Constitution to establish it's own laws on viability - a right which you feel compelled to arbitrarily deny them based on the asinine legal argument that "abortion must remain legal".


The states could choose to outlaw abortion after, say, 20 weeks (that's similar to how some European nations do it).

The States could also choose to do what their citizens want them to do instead of what you want them to do.  Seriously, if you want Pennsylvania to do one thing, then by all means petition your Commonwealth government.  As for Georgia, we will do what our citizens want under the Constitution of the United States of America.


The point is to preserve a woman's meaningful ability to choose whether or not to continue with a pregnancy.    The right - like the individual gun right - can be regulated but not denied.

So which is it?  A right?  Or a "woman's meaningful ability"?  And again, where is this "right" defined?  Certainly not in the US Constitution.  If it actually existed, you would have cited it already.  So stop pushing judicial tyranny as being Constitutional.


The heartbeat bill would ban abortion before the time a woman will know for sure she is pregnant and can make a decision.   

Are you seriously suggesting that pregnancy tests do not work?  Besides, by the time she gets pregnant, she would have already made a decision.0


It is, therefore, clearly unconstititutional.

Based on what?  For the umpteenth time, please show me the portion of the Constitution that is being violated here?  We will see how it lines up against Amendment X.


The Constitution is designed to address both that (i) we are endowed with certain individual liberties by our Creator, and (ii) the government's role is to preserve those liberties.   

Finally, the truth comes out.  Your case is essentially that it is our Creator that endowed us with the inalienable right to kill babies in the womb, in direct contrast to God's prohibition against sacrificing our children.  I have been wondering for quite some time if you were ever going to get down to this.  You finally did.  At least we all know now that you believe in a god that believes abortion is on equal terms with free speech and self-defense.


Some of those liberties are spelled out plainly in the Constitution, such as the freedom of speech and association,  but other similarly critical liberties are not,  but have been found to nevertheless be protected by the federal Constitution.   These include the right of personal privacy (the underpinning of the choice right) and the right to individual self defense.

So basically, they aren't actually in the Constitution, but they are deemed so by some tyrannical judge.  Got it.


Each of these rights is protected by reason of the Constitution's interpretation by the Supreme Court.    You individual right to own a gun for reasons of self defense is just as much Constitutionally protected by reason of the Heller decision as a woman's right to reproductive self-determination is Constitutionally protected by reason of Roe v. Wade.

The primary difference here is that the right to bear arms can actually be found in the Constitution (Amendment II) while your right to an abortion cannot.


(The Constitution's protection of each of these rights is potentially at risk in the event these Court decisions were to be overturned,  which is why I've long advocated that they be codified.   It is no coincidence that the most contentious fault lines in our culture today are abortion and guns,  because both women and gun owners believe, with justification, that their precious rights are subject to the whims of the political winds.)

How odd.  The Constitution itself remains unchanged.  Yet you are worried that judicial tyranny could turn against you.  Wouldn't it be much better if our courts followed the Constitution instead of making it up as they go?


Hoodat,  I understand that you consider abortion to be a moral wrong, and demand the State enforce your moral perspective regarding the "rights" of a six-week old fetus.

My personal position on abortion has zero bearing on the right of Georgia to shape its own society through the formulation of laws through the people's duly elected representatives, or by open referendum.  If a statewide referendum that legalized abortion up until age 2 was passed in Georgia, I would live by that decision.  And I definitely would not want some black-robed tyrant making everything OK for me by trampling all over the Constitution of the United States of America.  Personally, I believe that life should be valued.  And I will continue to lend my voice to society in support of that valuation.  But my personal views do not in any way change the wording of the Bill of Rights.


But consider the damage that's been done by pro-lifers'  attempts to elevate a moral issue into a political one.     Far more abortions would be prevented if folks of good will could work together to educate women about what abortion is and to offer support to those who seek to do the right thing.

Judicial fiat is what has made this a political issue.  Once the rules were discarded - the very Constitution itself - the quest for power took over.  And that is why we have people such as yourself relying on political decisions like Roe, Doe, and Obergefell while ignoring the Constitution.


Unfortunately,  women feel justifiably threatened that a choice they must retain may be taken away - just as you feel threatened that your right to own a gun for your own defense has been politicized and is in danger of being denied.   

There you go with that word "must" again.  Why must they retain it?  Why?  What is so important about that decision that you would trash the Constitution over it?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline Jazzhead

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The SCOTUS finding that the Constitution protects a citizen's natural right to choose for herself her own future,  or to own a gun for self-defense,  is not "tyranny".   It is the SCOTUS acting consistent with the intent of the Founders that the purpose of government is to secure our natural rights as individuals. 

I applaud the pro-life movement for raising the moral dilemma that is abortion.   It is never an easy decision, because in the typical situation the woman has no good choices.    A ban on the procedure (which is effectively what the "heartbeat" bill is) will force many woman into destitution or a back alley.   This is simply not the g-damn business of the government.  In other contexts,  this will easily be seen as the conservative, liberty-centric position.   And so it is here. 

It is difficult to overstate the damage that has been done to the American fabric by the 40-year battle over abortion.   The two political parties,  whatever their other differences, are divided on the issue of abortion,  with the Dems taking the libertarian view and the GOP the authoritarian view.   It is bass-ackwards from the positions each party usually takes.   On issue after issue,  I agree with my conservative colleagues except for this one.    Isn't it well past time to concede that the government cannot police a woman's womb,  and to focus instead on actually reducing the number of abortions?   Think of what progress could be made if we could all agree that abortions should be safe, legal and RARE.    Instead,  the Dems react to pro-life extremism with extremism of their own, pushing unconscionable laws permitting near-infanticide.   

Extremism begets extremism folks.   And while the abortion wars continue,  what progress has been made on the only thing that ought to matter?   
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide