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Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« on: April 09, 2019, 10:06:03 AM »
Are Women Malcontents?
Dennis Prager

Posted: Apr 09, 2019 12:01 AM

I have decided to finally read what is widely regarded as the literary work that unleashed the modern feminist movement, Betty Friedan's "The Feminine Mystique."

I am halfway through the book, and I find it to be a well-written cri de coeur (cry from the heart). Historically speaking, there was always much to lament regarding the status of women. Though I have none of the contempt Friedan has for "housewifery," her description of women who felt they had no sense of self because they were only someone's wife and some children's mother is emotionally compelling.

But a big and troubling thought hit me while reading the book. In the 56 years since "The Feminine Mystique" was published, every complaint Friedan made regarding the situation of the American woman has been addressed. Few American women are forced into "housewifery." The few women who choose to place marriage and home over career have truly chosen to do so; it is the rare young woman for whom marriage and family are greater goals than a successful career. Nor do women any longer go from high school to the wedding chapel. They go from high school to college and often graduate school. In fact, far more women go to college than men.

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https://townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/2019/04/09/are-women-malcontents-n2544465
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Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2019, 10:26:21 AM »
That's pretty much the schtick of every leftist identity group. No matter how great things are, it will always be pain, misery, dust bowls, whips cracking, starvation, oppression - let the list go on.

Until they get into power, then everything they wailed about will actually come true, just in reverse, while they lionize themselves at how glorious things are.

It's what the spawn of Stalin do. It's what they always do.
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Offline goatprairie

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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2019, 11:25:28 AM »
Simply stated, for people on the left, the glass is always half empty.

Offline QueenCatofAragon

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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2019, 12:06:44 PM »
A well-written cry from the heart?  I’ve read The Feminine Mystique.  The degree of anger and bitterness behind Friedan’s screed came through clearly.  To her, housewives were children in adult bodies, little princesses kept from fully maturing.  She was miserable in her own life, but instead of getting help, she needed to smear others. 



“...women who 'adjust' as housewives, who grow up wanting to be 'just a housewife,' are in as much danger as the millions who walked to their own death in the concentration camps...they ate suffering a slow death of mind and spirit.
Betty Friedan, The Feminine Mystique
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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2019, 12:58:04 PM »
Tribalism will be the death of the American experiment.   
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Offline goatprairie

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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2019, 01:13:19 PM »
A well-written cry from the heart?  I’ve read The Feminine Mystique.  The degree of anger and bitterness behind Friedan’s screed came through clearly.  To her, housewives were children in adult bodies, little princesses kept from fully maturing.  She was miserable in her own life, but instead of getting help, she needed to smear others. 



“...women who 'adjust' as housewives, who grow up wanting to be 'just a housewife,' are in as much danger as the millions who walked to their own death in the concentration camps...they ate suffering a slow death of mind and spirit.
Betty Friedan, The Feminine Mystique
What was disturbing about all the anger and hatred of their country coming from the sixties feminists was their whining about not having the same career opportunities as males.
In many cases that was true...many males were not ready to accept women as equal competitors in the marketplace.
But at the time events were changing rapidly. Since the end of WWII many young women were enrolling in institutions of higher learning.  The numbers of females were approaching the numbers of males who were going on to colleges and universities.
What people forget is that before WWII only a very small percentage of males went to college. In 1940 only about half the population, male or female, finished high school.
After WWII the numbers of both sexes going on to IOHL boomed.  It was inevitable that women would start entering fields previously mostly male or all male.
My point is that many leftists, especially angry, leftist feminists, fomented the idea that all American males had these wonderful jobs they loved while all women were relegated to their kitchens while being pregnant.
Until about fifty-sixty years ago a very large percentage of American males still worked hard, physical, many times dangerous jobs without great pay. Many of them still  work those types of jobs.
When I started working in an office at a Fortune 500 company in my hometown in the early seventies there were quite a few women who had been working there for many years before I started.  Many of them also had families and children. So the tale that all women were relegated to their homes before the seventies was false.
There was an inevitable lag time before women would start equaling men in numbers in certain professional positions, but they are now doing it.
However, few women wish to do the numerous dangerous, dirty jobs that still have to be done. If they want to do them, more power to them.
The idea of everybody having a great,wonderful career in whatever profession you choose is only a fairly recent one in the scheme of things for both sexes.   


Offline Millee

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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2019, 01:44:07 PM »
What was disturbing about all the anger and hatred of their country coming from the sixties feminists was their whining about not having the same career opportunities as males.
In many cases that was true...many males were not ready to accept women as equal competitors in the marketplace.
But at the time events were changing rapidly. Since the end of WWII many young women were enrolling in institutions of higher learning.  The numbers of females were approaching the numbers of males who were going on to colleges and universities.
What people forget is that before WWII only a very small percentage of males went to college. In 1940 only about half the population, male or female, finished high school.
After WWII the numbers of both sexes going on to IOHL boomed.  It was inevitable that women would start entering fields previously mostly male or all male.
My point is that many leftists, especially angry, leftist feminists, fomented the idea that all American males had these wonderful jobs they loved while all women were relegated to their kitchens while being pregnant.
Until about fifty-sixty years ago a very large percentage of American males still worked hard, physical, many times dangerous jobs without great pay. Many of them still  work those types of jobs.
When I started working in an office at a Fortune 500 company in my hometown in the early seventies there were quite a few women who had been working there for many years before I started.  Many of them also had families and children. So the tale that all women were relegated to their homes before the seventies was false.
There was an inevitable lag time before women would start equaling men in numbers in certain professional positions, but they are now doing it.
However, few women wish to do the numerous dangerous, dirty jobs that still have to be done. If they want to do them, more power to them.
The idea of everybody having a great,wonderful career in whatever profession you choose is only a fairly recent one in the scheme of things for both sexes.

 goopo

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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2019, 01:50:49 PM »
Tribalism will be the death of the American experiment.

"Tribalism"?   What do you think tribalism means?
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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2019, 01:54:09 PM »
The few women who choose to place marriage and home over career have truly chosen to do so; it is the rare young woman for whom marriage and family are greater goals than a successful career.

And that is a damn, cryin shame.

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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2019, 02:02:26 PM »
And that is a damn, cryin shame.

Today it's not a black and white issue.  You can have both and if you make some concessions and keep your priorities straight, neither will suffer.  We just don't have the crushing, overwhelming labor required to maintain a household properly that we had in the past, so it is possible and maybe even preferable to have a job too.

When you have small children, Mom needs to be there for them.  Infants and toddlers do not belong in day care for 10 hours a day.  They need to be home with mom.  And, if you have multiple children of school age, it's difficult to do right by a full time job.  But, when the kids go to high school or grow up and move out, there's no reason a woman can't work. 

Women have always worked, and frequently other than doing child- and house- care. For a fairly short period of time, and in the US, we achieved a level of prosperity that allowed women to stay at home and devote all of their time to maintaining the household.
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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2019, 02:10:49 PM »
Tribalism will be the death of the American experiment.
---------------------------------
Intuitive and on the mark!
Africa, Latin America as well as substantial portions of Asia,
remain bastions of this third world mentality.
Europe as a result of the wisdom of Greece and later Rome
rid themselves of tribalism allowing it to create and thrive.
Both the USA and Canada were the direct beneficiaries.

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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2019, 02:17:57 PM »
Today it's not a black and white issue. 

It is never, and has never been a black and white issue.

Quote
You can have both and if you make some concessions and keep your priorities straight, neither will suffer.  We just don't have the crushing, overwhelming labor required to maintain a household properly that we had in the past, so it is possible and maybe even preferable to have a job too.

I think that largely to be false - I think the things that women used to care about are being woefully neglected as a result. Primarily and especially, the children - Not only in the household, but in the larger scope that used to network neighborhoods and churches and etc.

Quote

When you have small children, Mom needs to be there for them.  Infants and toddlers do not belong in day care for 10 hours a day.  They need to be home with mom.  And, if you have multiple children of school age, it's difficult to do right by a full time job.  But, when the kids go to high school or grow up and move out, there's no reason a woman can't work. 

Never said otherwise. Though I will assert that home schooling is far superior... And that requires much more commitment, generally by the woman, and that networking I mentioned above, both of which are now absent.

Quote
Women have always worked, and frequently other than doing child- and house- care. For a fairly short period of time, and in the US, we achieved a level of prosperity that allowed women to stay at home and devote all of their time to maintaining the household.

Yes, women have always worked, but the priority was in care of the (greater) house, church, and community. That is still true, as proven in the fields that women choose to dominate. But in choosing careers helping and caring for others, they neglect their own - a precious commodity beyond all price. And I reiterate: It is a damn cryin shame.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2019, 02:27:50 PM »
It is never, and has never been a black and white issue.

I think that largely to be false - I think the things that women used to care about are being woefully neglected as a result. Primarily and especially, the children - Not only in the household, but in the larger scope that used to network neighborhoods and churches and etc.

Never said otherwise. Though I will assert that home schooling is far superior... And that requires much more commitment, generally by the woman, and that networking I mentioned above, both of which are now absent.

That I agree with.

Quote
Yes, women have always worked, but the priority was in care of the (greater) house, church, and community. That is still true, as proven in the fields that women choose to dominate. But in choosing careers helping and caring for others, they neglect their own - a precious commodity beyond all price. And I reiterate: It is a damn cryin shame.

No, it's not a damn cryin shame.  It's a great thing, if done right.  You ignored where I lined out that there are limits to what one woman can do, and you have to wait until you can go devote time and pursue a career, outside the house. 

And, where was this magical land where women didn't have to work?  Not in this world for most of humanity.
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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2019, 02:46:55 PM »
"Tribalism"?   What do you think tribalism means?

SoCons and Fiscons sticking together to keep Commies away from the levers of power.  If those Fiscons don't kick the Socon fanatics out of the party then it's Tribalism.  Kasich was the only answer (to a very stupid question) in 2016.
Don't call it the "Federal Government," that's an insult to the Founders.  It's a "National Government."
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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2019, 02:47:11 PM »
That I agree with.

No, it's not a damn cryin shame.  It's a great thing, if done right.  You ignored where I lined out that there are limits to what one woman can do, and you have to wait until you can go devote time and pursue a career, outside the house. 

And, where was this magical land where women didn't have to work?  Not in this world for most of humanity.

There is no such magical land - As I admitted above, it has never been a black and white issue.

As to the limits you have designed - That is not what is happening. It is quite the other way - Career women are pursuing college and careers in their youth and retiring early as the biological clock begins to sound the alarm.

But even that is not the mean. At the mean, women are working, and someone else is raising their children. They feed their children shit, because they no longer have the time for gardens and shopping. The household costs far more because she no longer has the time for canning, flea markets, garage sales, and Sally Ann's... In the larger scope, they are absent from PTA. They are absent from church activities. they are absent from the care of the children and elders of the greater House... Those that are still there are now overwhelmed and so it all is becoming neglected to the point of utter breakdown.

That which is priceless and precious goes wanting. And YES, it is a damn, crying shame.

Offline Absalom

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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2019, 02:51:28 PM »
"Tribalism"?   What do you think tribalism means?
-------------------------------
Tribalism is the exaltation of and loyalty to the group; it is the catalyst for
collectivism, socialism and Marxism.
Individualism is the exaltation of and loyalty to the self; promoting self-discipline,
responsibility and perseverance, among many attitudes and behaviors.
It is a foundational value of Western Civilization.

« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 11:44:13 PM by Absalom »

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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2019, 03:21:50 PM »
SoCons and Fiscons sticking together to keep Commies away from the levers of power.  If those Fiscons don't kick the Socon fanatics out of the party then it's Tribalism.  Kasich was the only answer (to a very stupid question) in 2016.

Yes, the current use of "tribalism" is a leftist meme, used generally to say "white people bad".  I was hoping @Jazzhead would think about what he was saying.   :shrug:
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2019, 03:22:39 PM »
There is no such magical land - As I admitted above, it has never been a black and white issue.

As to the limits you have designed - That is not what is happening. It is quite the other way - Career women are pursuing college and careers in their youth and retiring early as the biological clock begins to sound the alarm.

But even that is not the mean. At the mean, women are working, and someone else is raising their children. They feed their children shit, because they no longer have the time for gardens and shopping. The household costs far more because she no longer has the time for canning, flea markets, garage sales, and Sally Ann's... In the larger scope, they are absent from PTA. They are absent from church activities. they are absent from the care of the children and elders of the greater House... Those that are still there are now overwhelmed and so it all is becoming neglected to the point of utter breakdown.

That which is priceless and precious goes wanting. And YES, it is a damn, crying shame.

You and I aren't saying the same thing.  Your brush is way too broad.
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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2019, 03:25:53 PM »
Yes, the current use of "tribalism" is a leftist meme, used generally to say "white people bad".  I was hoping @Jazzhead would think about what he was saying.   :shrug:

I'm betting you won't see an answer that satisfies.  Just some repetion of an earlier post.  I'd like to know myself but I don't ask things like that because I know I'll get a politician's answer.
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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2019, 03:30:02 PM »
I'm betting you won't see an answer that satisfies.  Just some repetion of an earlier post.  I'd like to know myself but I don't ask things like that because I know I'll get a politician's answer.

I thought @Absalom had a decent answer, but, no, I don't expect @Jazzhead to respond.  It would make his head hurt.
"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." – George Mason, Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 1788

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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2019, 03:39:36 PM »
You and I aren't saying the same thing.  Your brush is way too broad.

Necessarily so - It is a categorical error - Similar in kind to @Absalom 's portrayal of tribal v. individual:

Absalom is not wrong in the context to which he refers, but is at a categorical error. Man is a tribal creature and will always be - The problem is really a misdirection of that tribal feature from the Clan/House into falsely erected 'groups' that have no basis for loyalty.

Similarly, at the point and in the context of the individual woman, you are entirely right. But at the categorical level, Woman is going against all instinct, and is being misdirected to believe in things that simply are not true or even desirable - All for a price that is usually entirely negated by the cost of the sitter.


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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2019, 03:44:17 PM »
I thought @Absalom had a decent answer, but, no, I don't expect @Jazzhead to respond.  It would make his head hurt.

I think @Absalom's answer was pretty good.  He's talked about it before, one of the things I've agreed with him about.
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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2019, 03:51:48 PM »
A well-written cry from the heart?  I’ve read The Feminine Mystique.  The degree of anger and bitterness behind Friedan’s screed came through clearly.  To her, housewives were children in adult bodies, little princesses kept from fully maturing.  She was miserable in her own life, but instead of getting help, she needed to smear others. 



“...women who 'adjust' as housewives, who grow up wanting to be 'just a housewife,' are in as much danger as the millions who walked to their own death in the concentration camps...they ate suffering a slow death of mind and spirit.
Betty Friedan, The Feminine Mystique

I thought she basically took Mary Wollenstonecraft’s book “A Vindication on the Rights of Women” 1792 and made it for modern times. Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinem were not the first women to want women’s rights.

Personally, I think if a woman wants to be a housewife and she can, no stigma. I know a lot of women who feel like they have to work and have careers and are miserable
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Offline QueenCatofAragon

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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2019, 04:47:37 PM »
What was disturbing about all the anger and hatred of their country coming from the sixties feminists was their whining about not having the same career opportunities as males.
In many cases that was true...many males were not ready to accept women as equal competitors in the marketplace.
But at the time events were changing rapidly. Since the end of WWII many young women were enrolling in institutions of higher learning.  The numbers of females were approaching the numbers of males who were going on to colleges and universities.
What people forget is that before WWII only a very small percentage of males went to college. In 1940 only about half the population, male or female, finished high school.
After WWII the numbers of both sexes going on to IOHL boomed.  It was inevitable that women would start entering fields previously mostly male or all male.
My point is that many leftists, especially angry, leftist feminists, fomented the idea that all American males had these wonderful jobs they loved while all women were relegated to their kitchens while being pregnant.
Until about fifty-sixty years ago a very large percentage of American males still worked hard, physical, many times dangerous jobs without great pay. Many of them still  work those types of jobs.
When I started working in an office at a Fortune 500 company in my hometown in the early seventies there were quite a few women who had been working there for many years before I started.  Many of them also had families and children. So the tale that all women were relegated to their homes before the seventies was false.
There was an inevitable lag time before women would start equaling men in numbers in certain professional positions, but they are now doing it.
However, few women wish to do the numerous dangerous, dirty jobs that still have to be done. If they want to do them, more power to them.
The idea of everybody having a great,wonderful career in whatever profession you choose is only a fairly recent one in the scheme of things for both sexes.

@goatprairie

Great post.

There are women who would like to be at home but can't, for various reasons.  There are also women who prefer to work and who would be driven crazy at home.  My husband's sister was one of them.  There wasn't a domestic bone in her body.  She's changed a little since remarrying.  Her nursing supervisor job was exhausting, and once she quit, she started to find out she actually liked being at home.  Now she's always dragging me to Hobby Lobby to look at something for the house.   :laugh:

Personally, working a job was nothing but stressful for me and my husband.  We ate a lot of takeout food, and I would find myself vaccuuming at eleven p.m., in a bad mood.  I wouldn't let him help me because I had my own way of doing things, which was silly.

 He kept telling me to quit, but I couldn't take that step.  Until management tried to increase my hours and told me I had no choice.  I said "Yes, I do," and walked out.  It was definitely right for us.

I would never try to tell women in general that they need to be at home because I don't know their situations.  When my sister-in-law was thinking about quitting her job, she said to me, honestly, "I don't know if I'll have an identity without my job."  I replied, okay, but what does it say if your identity is what you do nine-to-five and without it you're lost?

Some women say that being a homemaker is a waste of life.  When I die, I'll have made one man happy---the man God intended for me.  That's enough for me.

I say this to Beto fans, Trump fans, all fans of politicians: it is un-American, ridiculous, and dangerous to be a fan of a politician. They aren't pop stars. Support them if you agree with their policies. Criticize them when they go wrong. They are servants, not celebrities. —— Matt Walsh

Offline QueenCatofAragon

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Re: Are Women Malcontents?... Dennis Prager
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2019, 05:00:37 PM »
I thought she basically took Mary Wollenstonecraft’s book “A Vindication on the Rights of Women” 1792 and made it for modern times. Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinem were not the first women to want women’s rights.

Personally, I think if a woman wants to be a housewife and she can, no stigma. I know a lot of women who feel like they have to work and have careers and are miserable

@Freya

I haven't read that book, but I looked up some quotes, and I think I might add it to my list if it's on Kindle.  Mary Wollstonecraft's--and her contemporaries, and those who came after for a long time---genuinely wanted to end the status of women as property.  I can't put Steinem or Friedan in that class, though.  Steinem was the original leftwing man-hating feminist.  Much of what's wrong with third-wave feminism was originally rolled out by her.
I say this to Beto fans, Trump fans, all fans of politicians: it is un-American, ridiculous, and dangerous to be a fan of a politician. They aren't pop stars. Support them if you agree with their policies. Criticize them when they go wrong. They are servants, not celebrities. —— Matt Walsh


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