Is cutting off aid to Central America the right choice?

[corbe]

   One viewpoint:


April 2nd, 2019

I Must Dissent

by Erick Erickson

In 2017, speaking to a group of leaders from Central America, Vice President Pence declared, “To further stem the flow of illegal immigration and illegal drugs into the United States, President Trump knows, as do all of you, that we must confront these problems at their source. We must meet them – and we must solve them – in Central and South America.” What Vice President Pence said then was correct. What President Trump is doing now — cutting aid — is wrong. I must respectfully dissent.

Fifteen years ago, Colombia was on the verge of collapse. The nation was overrun with drug traffickers, cartels, and local gangs. Crime and violence were rampant, people were fleeing the nation, and the government of Colombia teetered on the edge. The United States deployed its foreign aid budget and military resources to help the Colombian government stabilize, fight its domestic drug war, and beat the cartels. The nation went from the brink to being a stable leader in South America and a strategic ally of the United States. In the past decade, trade with Colombia has tripled to $14 billion, benefiting American businesses.

Since 2016, American assistance to Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador has declined 20% and, concurrent with that decline in American assistance, those countries have seen an increase in domestic crime, corruption, and flight of refugees headed towards the United States.

<..snip..>

https://theresurgent.com/2019/04/02/i-must-dissent/

[Sanguine]

Erick dissents on pretty much everything lately.

[Jazzhead]

It's called cutting off your nose to spite your face.    Ending assistance to these countries will just fuel the chaos, and the exodus.     

[Sanguine]

It's called cutting off your nose to spite your face.    Ending assistance to these countries will just fuel the chaos, and the exodus.   

How so, @Jazzhead?

[jafo2010]

With the problems we have domestically, I think it is time we end foreign aid as we know it.

Starting with Europe, I think we need to flip the ratio, with Europe paying 70-75% of NATO.  I think Japan, Korea and every other nation the USA is defending should be paying cost plus for the expense of our defense forces in their country.

[Jazzhead]

With the problems we have domestically, I think it is time we end foreign aid as we know it.

But some foreign aid directly helps our interests.     Every Central American that stays home is one less migrant at our border.   

[Sanguine]

But some foreign aid directly helps our interests.     Every Central American that stays home is one less migrant at our border.

I don't think you understand the numbers.  The numbers of central Americans who are now here.  I can understand that you are trying to minimize the problem, but in the interest of accuracy and honesty, we shouldn't.

[Jazzhead]

I don't think you understand the numbers.  The numbers of central Americans who are now here.  I can understand that you are trying to minimize the problem, but in the interest of accuracy and honesty, we shouldn't.

Why are you saying that I am trying to minimize the problem?   I'm one of the few here  who has been careful to differentiate between "illegal immigrants" and the unique situation of these Central American migrants seeking asylum.    I am one of the few here who's been saying the two problems are different, and demand different solutions.   

These folks are coming here because of intolerable conditions in their countries.   Not lack of jobs or opportunity per se,  but gang violence that causes mothers to fear for their sons.   To the extent we can assist these countries to resist corruption and address rampant lawlessness,  it will help stem the exodus of good people convinced they'd rather risk an uncertain future in a migrant detention center than become the certain victims of anarchy.   

[Sanguine]

Why are you saying that I am trying to minimize the problem?    These folks are coming here because of intolerable conditions in their countries.   Not lack of opportunity per se,  but gang violence that causes mothers to fear for their sons.   To the extent we can assist these countries to resist corruption and address rampant lawlessness,  it will help stem the exodus of good people convinced they'd rather risk an uncertain future in a migrant detention center than become the certain victims of anarchy.

Why am I saying that you are minimizing the problem that you are minimizing?   

Who the hell created the anarchy that they are fleeing?  How will fleeing what they have created solve the problems?

They are coming here rather than cleaning their own home.  And, you don't know if they are "good people" or not.  You just assume.

Even if they are that totally misses the point.

[skeeter]

Why are you saying that I am trying to minimize the problem?   I'm one of the few here  who has been careful to differentiate between the issues of "illegal immigration" and the unique situation of these Central American migrants.    I am one of the few here who's been saying the two problems are different, and demand different solutions.   

These folks are coming here because of intolerable conditions in their countries.   Not lack of jobs or opportunity per se,  but gang violence that causes mothers to fear for their sons.   To the extent we can assist these countries to resist corruption and address rampant lawlessness,  it will help stem the exodus of good people convinced they'd rather risk an uncertain future in a migrant detention center than become the certain victims of anarchy.

Thats the media narrative and its a load of crap. Gangs have been in central America for decades, and if they've gotten stronger its by the drug trade which has been enhanced by our lax border.

Whats happening now is a coordinated effort to overwhelm our system. These people are being coached to take advantage of the asylum laws and their journey is funded. There's no way so many could make the trip so fast without major logistical support.

Good grief even Jake Tapper knows this now.

[Absalom]

Why are you saying that I am trying to minimize the problem?   I'm one of the few here  who has been careful to differentiate between "illegal immigrants" and the unique situation of these Central American migrants seeking asylum.    I am one of the few here who's been saying the two problems are different, and demand different solutions.   

These folks are coming here because of intolerable conditions in their countries.   Not lack of jobs or opportunity per se,  but gang violence that causes mothers to fear for their sons.   To the extent we can assist these countries to resist corruption and address rampant lawlessness,  it will help stem the exodus of good people convinced they'd rather risk an uncertain future in a migrant detention center than become the certain victims of anarchy.

--------------------------------------
The Fertile Crescent was a catalyst for the development of the nation/state which emerged
in ancient Egypt, then Greece and Rome, allowing these cultures/societies to abandon tribalism.
South America remains trapped in tribalism; its Aztec, Inca and Toltec legacy which it won't abandon.
Their chaos and corruption is of their own making and we owe them nothing!!!

[truth_seeker]

These folks are coming here because of intolerable conditions in their countries.   

That has been true, for most of the world, for most of  time.

The US does NOT have a moral responsibility to solve an age old problem.

We SHOULD ONLY give aid, on a quid pro quo basis; We help you to help your country, provided you keep your people there to reap the benefits.


BUT if you fail to keep your people there, you lose aid. Simple and fair.


 

[libertybele]

Why are you saying that I am trying to minimize the problem?   I'm one of the few here  who has been careful to differentiate between "illegal immigrants" and the unique situation of these Central American migrants seeking asylum.    I am one of the few here who's been saying the two problems are different, and demand different solutions.   

These folks are coming here because of intolerable conditions in their countries.   Not lack of jobs or opportunity per se,  but gang violence that causes mothers to fear for their sons.   To the extent we can assist these countries to resist corruption and address rampant lawlessness,  it will help stem the exodus of good people convinced they'd rather risk an uncertain future in a migrant detention center than become the certain victims of anarchy.

@Jazzhead look at the flip side.  We keep pumping money into countries that only seems to grow their drug trafficking and gang violence, many of those come here to make more money by drug trafficing and gang violence.  So, not all those who come here are doing so because of intolerable conditions. 

Secondly, just because you throw money at a situation doesn't mean its going to get better. Sometimes it makes the situation worse.  Throwing money at these countries makes them dependent on us and gives them little incentive to improve themselves.  I can give you an example right here in the U.S.; Detroit.  Having lived in the Detroit area for years, major revitalization were done to the downtown area numerous times and the people of Detroit destroyed what they were given instead of taking care of it and maintaining their city on their own.  There was no incentive as the people of Detroit didn't have to work for the restoration and in addition they expected a check to go along with it to feed, clothe and house them.  Illegals coming in are little different.  They've been told that they will get a free ride, all they have to do is come here.  What incentive then is it for them to take the money that is being poured into their country and build a better life?  None.  What incentive is there for their government to improve their country and the lives for their citizens?  None, because the money keeps coming in regardless of what they do.

[Cyber Liberty]

--------------------------------------
The Fertile Crescent was a catalyst for the development of the nation/state which emerged
in ancient Egypt, then Greece and Rome, allowing these cultures/societies to abandon tribalism.
South America remains trapped in tribalism; its Aztec, Inca and Toltec legacy which it won't abandon.
Their chaos and corruption is of their own making and we owe them nothing!!!

I think you make a good point about the tribalism.  In the Mexican State south of me, Sonora, Mayans are the tribe.  In addition to this issue, Latin America is also plagued by a history of Spanish/Portuguese conquest, as opposed to colonization.  Northern Europeans came for land, the Conquistadors came to loot the countryside.

And, yeah, we owe them nothing.  Same with others holding a hand out.

[Cyber Liberty]

That has been true, for most of the world, for most of  time.

The US does NOT have a moral responsibility to solve an age old problem.

We SHOULD ONLY give aid, on a quid pro quo basis; We help you to help your country, provided you keep your people there to reap the benefits.


BUT if you fail to keep your people there, you lose aid. Simple and fair.

The people in those places don't reap any benefit, because their rulers are totally corrupt and keep all the aid for themselves.  Bottom line, they lose the aid, and that is simple and fair.

[Jazzhead]

@Jazzhead look at the flip side.  We keep pumping money into countries that only seems to grow their drug trafficking and gang violence, many of those come here to make more money by drug trafficing and gang violence.  So, not all those who come here are doing so because of intolerable conditions. 

I am not suggesting that asylum seekers not be vetted.    Those who come here to commit crimes deserve no sanctuary.   They should be deported, pronto.

But we need to recognize that the recent asylum seekers have in large part consisted of families fleeing gang violence.    That's a fundamentally different problem than Mexicans coming here to harvest crops and do other blue collar work.   As I've pointed out before,  those sorts of illegals are a symptom of a booming economy -  many had returned home under Obama's shit economy.    When there is demand for labor,  the labor supply rationally reacts.

But asylum seekers aren't coming here because we demand their labor.   They are fleeing intolerable conditions,  especially for their kids.   In that context, it is rational to ask whether the crisis can most efficiently addressed by getting to the root of the problem,  by offering assistance to address the conditions that cause so many to flee.   (And that includes addressing Americans' demand for the illegal drugs that are the lifeblood of the gangs.)   

[libertybele]

I am not suggesting that asylum seekers not be vetted.    Those who come here to commit crimes deserve no sanctuary.   They should be deported, pronto.

But we need to recognize that the recent asylum seekers have in large part consisted of families fleeing gang violence.    That's a fundamentally different problem than Mexicans coming here to harvest crops and do other blue collar work.   As I've pointed out before,  those sorts of illegals are a symptom of a booming economy -  many had returned home under Obama's shit economy.    When there is demand for labor,  the labor supply rationally reacts.

But asylum seekers aren't coming here because we demand their labor.   They are fleeing intolerable conditions,  especially for their kids.   In that context, it is rational to ask whether the crisis can most efficiently addressed by getting to the root of the problem,  by offering assistance to address the conditions that cause so many to flee.   (And that includes addressing Americans' demand for the illegal drugs that are the lifeblood of the gangs.)   

First of all, there are so many coming through right now, that they are NOT being vetted, in fact, they are being let in on our side by border patrol!  Border patrol has it's own problems with corruption and Trump has few options left. 

Not ALL and I would lay odds that MOST that are coming through right now are NOT seeking asylum because of intolerable conditions; that are leaving because they know that they will be given a free ride and won't have to work.  All they have to do is come here. That also leaves the door open for all their relatives.  It is a problem that Trump has allowed to snowball out of control.  Again, he has few options and cutting off aid is one of them.  Whether or not that will deliver any kind of success is yet to be seen.

[Smokin Joe]

But some foreign aid directly helps our interests.     Every Central American that stays home is one less migrant at our border.

Great. We feed their corrupt armies and political cronies, while the food for the masses gets burned at the border. Foreign aid has kept more tinpot dictators in power than anything else. Same thing happens in Africa.

In the meantime, we have the fattest poor people on the planet.

The more you subsidize something, the fatter it gets. And we tax productive Americans to do this.

[Sanguine]

@Jazzhead, that was a very selective answering of questions.  Not going to answer the tougher ones?

[Jazzhead]

Great. We feed their corrupt armies and political cronies, while the food for the masses gets burned at the border.

What are you talking about?    You seem to be describing Venezuela,  not the Central American nations that have had trouble maintaining law and order where most of the asylum seekers are (at least right now) coming from.   

[Jazzhead]

@Jazzhead, that was a very selective answering of questions.  Not going to answer the tougher ones?

The situation in Honduras is not comparable to the situation in Detroit.   Are you suggesting that our policy approach to Honduras and Detroit be the same?   

[Sanguine]

The situation in Honduras is not comparable to the situation in Detroit.   Are you suggesting that our policy approach to Honduras and Detroit be the same?

That's disappointing.  Not even a good deflection.

[Jazzhead]

That's disappointing.  Not even a good deflection.

Sorry, Sanguine.   Gotta lot of work to do this morning. 

[Sanguine]

Sorry, Sanguine.   Gotta lot of work to do this morning.

So, your comments are just thoughtless bits of rhetoric? 

[Jazzhead]

So, your comments are just thoughtless bits of rhetoric?

Yep, that's it.   

Just like Trump's own thoughtlessness in cutting off his nose to spite his face.