Steele admits he used posts from 'random individuals' on CNN website for Trump dossier

[Sanguine]

I can give you a hand fixing that up:

That's why there's a court, so the DoJ has the appearance of a check to keep it from being used as a tool for political purposes.

Sure looking like it.

[Cyber Liberty]

I can give you a hand fixing that up:

That's why there's a court, so the DoJ has the appearance of a check to keep it from being used as a tool for political purposes.

LOL!  I see your point, old friend.

[Smokin Joe]

I'm not sure that any of the judges eff'ed up.  Seems more like the FBI was lying and withholding information from them the entire time. and I do believe that each and every instance of their doing that is a felony.  Count them up.

The judge ruled on information provided. That, ultimately, is all they can do. If the information provided was false, and if Brady Material was withheld, then there are a few felonies involved. Someone had to swear an affidavit to get the warrant, or sign under penalty of perjury. Considering the DOJ is charged with upholding the law, doing so under color of law just adds to the pile.

Steele's picking up comments from CNN to fill out the dossier is akin to Dan Rather or 'just making sh*t up' because they wanted it to be true.

That isn't compatible with justice. There should be a long parade of orange jumpsuits over this, but it is likely that unless collusion can be shown, the judges are safe.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

This is incredible.  The judge that issued a FISA warrant based upon seven-year-old open bulletin board postings on a CNN website should be impeached.  And any Democrat still clinging to this notion that the Steele dossier holds any credibility should be laughed out of Congress.  Just within the last couple of days, we heard CNN's Erin Burnett saying that the Steele dossier was financed by the GOP and that most of it was proven true.  These people need to be held accountable for their lies.

Agreed. I can see why Trump wants to sue for libel, he should. if this can happen to Trump it can happen to any of us.

[edpc]

My bad.  I mistook ED for SD.

That is easy to understand, since the Manafort trial took place in the Eastern District of Virginia court. Hearing southern district and eastern district in the news the same week (though different states) can do that.

[Sanguine]

The judge ruled on information provided. That, ultimately, is all they can do. If the information provided was false, and if Brady Material was withheld, then there are a few felonies involved. Someone had to swear an affidavit to get the warrant, or sign under penalty of perjury. Considering the DOJ is charged with upholding the law, doing so under color of law just adds to the pile.

Steele's picking up comments from CNN to fill out the dossier is akin to Dan Rather or 'just making sh*t up' because they wanted it to be true.

That isn't compatible with justice. There should be a long parade of orange jumpsuits over this, but it is likely that unless collusion can be shown, the judges are safe.

Then the judges are useless.  If the FBI can come in and lie to them and the judges just accept that and don't say anything like: "that's a very serious charge against a newly elected president - are you sure of this and how?" then they are totally useless to protect Americans from their own government.

[truth_seeker]

Then the judges are useless.  If the FBI can come in and lie to them and the judges just accept that and don't say anything like: "that's a very serious charge against a newly elected president - are you sure of this and how?" then they are totally useless to protect Americans from their own government.

Exactly.


Doesn't a FISA judge report to CJ Roberts?


Are these people merely paper shufflers, or do people Stop-Ask Questions, make phone calls, when the targett is a candidate or recently elected President?

[Bigun]

Then the judges are useless.  If the FBI can come in and lie to them and the judges just accept that and don't say anything like: "that's a very serious charge against a newly elected president - are you sure of this and how?" then they are totally useless to protect Americans from their own government.

@Sanguine  @InHeavenThereIsNoBeer nailed this a few posts up.  These FISA judges are there for appearances only. To make the process LOOK better.

[Sanguine]

@Sanguine  @InHeavenThereIsNoBeer nailed this a few posts up.  These FISA judges are there for appearances only. To make the process LOOK better.

Yes, that's what I'm getting out of the story. 

[Bigun]

Yes, that's what I'm getting out of the story.

If the FBI failed to follow the rules and excluded exculpatory information from the applications they committed a felony each and every time they did that.  If the did include it and the judge approved the application anyway it's a whole new ballgame.  Can't know for sure without seeing the full, unredacted, applications.

[edpc]

If the FBI failed to follow the rules and excluded exculpatory information from the applications they committed a felony each and every time they did that.  If the did include it and the judge approved the application anyway it's a whole new ballgame.  Can't know for sure without seeing the full, unredacted, applications.

It’s highly unlikely you will ever see those unredacted applications. The most likely reason, is because it contains confirmed, multi-sourced Five Eyes intelligence. There are restrictions as to what US intel services can do domestically. That’s not the case with foreign services. What’s probable is we have an agreement with the other members of FE to share intel. That way, each nation can avoid problems with direct surveillance of their citizens, until other sources give them the necessary cause. It’s like rendition, where we send people to places where they can use interrogation techniques we can’t.

[Bigun]

It’s highly unlikely you will ever see those unredacted applications. The most likely reason, is because it contains confirmed, multi-sourced Five Eyes intelligence. There are restrictions as to what US intel services can do domestically. That’s not the case with foreign services. What’s probable is we have an agreement with the other members of FE to share intel. That way, each nation can avoid problems with direct surveillance of their citizens, until other sources give them the necessary cause. It’s like rendition, where we send people to places where they can use interrogation techniques we can’t.

Right!  And the FBI remains free to do as it damned well pleases here at home!

[Smokin Joe]

Then the judges are useless.  If the FBI can come in and lie to them and the judges just accept that and don't say anything like: "that's a very serious charge against a newly elected president - are you sure of this and how?" then they are totally useless to protect Americans from their own government.

The FBI are not supposed to LIE. If a sworn LEO comes before you as a judge, and swears to the veracity of their probable cause material to get a warrant, you rule on what you have. If there are glaring inconsistencies, you say "No".
But at what point should we have to deal with sworn LEOs like 'hood rats insofar as the veracity of their sworn testimony?

That those same LEOs withheld exculpatory material makes them all the more at fault, because they went in with the intent to deceive in order to get the warrant, in violation of their oaths.

I would have to see what they presented the judge before I could fault the judge. If there were obvious and glaring problems with the evidence presented to establish probable cause, then the judge should be in trouble, too, but I would think that what was presented was slick enough to pass muster to get a warrant, especially in light of the low threshhold for probable cause for conducting searches on ordinary folks.

[Sanguine]

It’s highly unlikely you will ever see those unredacted applications. The most likely reason, is because it contains confirmed, multi-sourced Five Eyes intelligence. There are restrictions as to what US intel services can do domestically. That’s not the case with foreign services. What’s probable is we have an agreement with the other members of FE to share intel. That way, each nation can avoid problems with direct surveillance of their citizens, until other sources give them the necessary cause. It’s like rendition, where we send people to places where they can use interrogation techniques we can’t.

That part I very strongly doubt.

[Sanguine]

The FBI are not supposed to LIE. If a sworn LEO comes before you as a judge, and swears to the veracity of their probable cause material to get a warrant, you rule on what you have. If there are glaring inconsistencies, you say "No".
But at what point should we have to deal with sworn LEOs like 'hood rats insofar as the veracity of their sworn testimony?

That those same LEOs withheld exculpatory material makes them all the more at fault, because they went in with the intent to deceive in order to get the warrant, in violation of their oaths.

I would have to see what they presented the judge before I could fault the judge. If there were obvious and glaring problems with the evidence presented to establish probable cause, then the judge should be in trouble, too, but I would think that what was presented was slick enough to pass muster to get a warrant, especially in light of the low threshhold for probable cause for conducting searches on ordinary folks.

Isn't that the point?  The FISA courts were set up so that the intelligence/law enforcement agencies could not lie or misrepresent in order to spy on American citizens?  And, this shows how cavalierly and easily they have been subverted?

[Bigun]

Isn't that the point?  The FISA courts were set up so that the intelligence/law enforcement agencies could not lie or misrepresent in order to spy on American citizens?  And, this shows how cavalierly and easily they have been subverted?

There IS  a record and SURELY there is someone with oversight authority who can look at it.

[edpc]

That part I very strongly doubt.

It makes a lot more sense than the entire FISA app being false. If it was, there’s absolutely no reason to not declassify it. It’s more advantageous for Trump to keep it under seal, say it was all based on lies, and not have to prove it. That keeps the issue open and base energized.

[Sanguine]

It makes a lot more sense than the entire FISA app being false. If it was, there’s absolutely no reason to not declassify it. It’s more advantageous for Trump to keep it under seal, say it was all based on lies, and not have to prove it. That keeps the issue open and base energized.

It's not an all or nothing situation.  Some of the information was false and perhaps some not. 

[Smokin Joe]

It's not an all or nothing situation.  Some of the information was false and perhaps some not.

And exculpatory material was left out, intentionally. That puts the rest in a different light as well, skewing the picture for the judge. That's on the people presenting their evidence in a biased fashion in order to obtain the warrant.

[Bigun]

It makes a lot more sense than the entire FISA app being false. If it was, there’s absolutely no reason to not declassify it. It’s more advantageous for Trump to keep it under seal, say it was all based on lies, and not have to prove it. That keeps the issue open and base energized.

IF the FISA application(s) were, as has been reported, based solely on the Steele document then they are 100% false and were known to be false when they were submitted!

[edpc]

It's not an all or nothing situation.  Some of the information was false and perhaps some not.

Then your previous assertion of doubt doesn’t make a lot of sense. Intel is ‘true’ because it’s confirmed by other sources.

[Sanguine]

Then your previous assertion of doubt doesn’t make a lot of sense. Intel is ‘true’ because it’s confirmed by other sources.

Sorry, Ed, that doesn't follow. 

[Cyber Liberty]

Then your previous assertion of doubt doesn’t make a lot of sense. Intel is ‘true’ because it’s confirmed by other sources.

Does information leaked by Steele to the press count as "confirmed" when the FBI cites the resulting press accounts in the application?  Comey's FBI said it does.

[edpc]

IF the FISA application(s) were, as has been reported, based solely on the Steele document then they are 100% false and were known to be false when they were submitted!

There’s the problem. If it is 100% false, there is no source or method to protect. The reason for the application remaining classified would be nonexistent.

[Smokin Joe]

There’s the problem. If it is 100% false, there is no source or method to protect. The reason for the application remaining classified would be nonexistent.

It may be to wait for the arrest and trial of the offenders. Putting the document in the press would bias potential juries.