Author Topic: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's tweet about workers being paid 'less than the value they create' is essen  (Read 1166 times)

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Offline Wingnut

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She is a good little Marxist!  Bless her ignant self.

Late last month, US Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez tweeted a criticism of Ivanka Trump, who had said she was against the idea of a guaranteed minimum wage because "I don't think most Americans, in their heart, want to be given something. ... People want to work for what they get. So, I think that this idea of a guaranteed minimum is not something most people want."

Ocasio-Cortez responded, "A living wage isn't a gift, it's a right. Workers are often paid far less than the value they create."

That caught my eye because it is essentially a restatement of Karl Marx's "Labour Theory of Value," and it's not often you see that discussed in the mainstream media.

If all workers are paid less than the value they create, then there will never be enough workers to buy the things they make
Prior to Marx, the "value" of any product was regarded as pretty much the same as its price in the marketplace. It's how much you would pay to avoid making the product yourself, according to Adam Smith (1723-1790). The reason you might spend $100 on a pair of shoes is because even though $100 is quite expensive, it's a lot easier than making a pair of shoes by hand, yourself, Smith said.

Marx (1818-1883), who was a big fan of Smith, was more interested in how products acquire value as they come into existence. A cow doesn't slaughter itself and magically transform into a pair of leather shoes. That only happens because workers apply labour to the cow's corpse, turning its skin into leather and then sewing that leather into shoes. Only after labour has been applied do shoes have any value. It's the labour that creates the value, not just the fact that the shoes can be traded for cash.




https://www.businessinsider.com/alexandria-ocasio-cortezs-tweet-workers-paid-far-less-than-the-value-they-create-2019-3
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 08:12:21 pm by The Ghost »
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Offline Free Vulcan

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Labor has zero connection to the value it produces. It's supply and demand like everything else.
The Republic is lost.

Bill Cipher

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Labor has zero connection to the value it produces. It's supply and demand like everything else.

Nonsense.  Marx’s problem wasn’t that he didn’t have a strong insight, it was that he and Engels took it too far and turned it into a quasi-religion. 

Offline jmyrlefuller

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Labor has zero connection to the value it produces. It's supply and demand like everything else.
If that's the case, then maybe it shouldn't be the standard way of making a living. It wasn't, really, up until the Industrial Revolution.
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Offline the_doc

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Labor has zero connection to the value it produces. It's supply and demand like everything else.

That's dead right. 

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If that's the case, then maybe it shouldn't be the standard way of making a living. It wasn't, really, up until the Industrial Revolution.

Really?  You mean all those serfs in the fields weren’t really laboring?

Offline skeeter

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Labor has zero connection to the value it produces. It's supply and demand like everything else.

Yep. Just like the price of a hammer has no relation to the value of the houses it builds.

Offline Free Vulcan

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Nonsense.  Marx’s problem wasn’t that he didn’t have a strong insight, it was that he and Engels took it too far and turned it into a quasi-religion.

Nonsense how, exactly?
The Republic is lost.

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Offline Free Vulcan

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That should be self-evident.

Then you should be able to state it.
The Republic is lost.

Offline goatprairie

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That should be self-evident.
If you build something/widget in your basement/workshop all by yourself taking hundreds of hours of your time to make, and you market it through some medium, but you don't sell one widget, how much is it worth?

Offline Victoria33

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Don't know why anyone would think Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez knows anything about anything.  Just because she won an election, does not mean she is knowledge about how government works or what this country needs.  She and the other new one with the headscarf (I assume she is Arab but I don't know that), are being covered by the news almost daily and I have never seen this happen with new ones until this time.

When she won, I read a piece that said the man who had been the Representative, had been in the job so long, he automatically won every time and no one rarely ran against him, so he had not campaigned, thinking he would win again.  She evidently rang door bells and her friends did that same, so she won.

Offline Wingnut

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Don't know why anyone would think Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez knows anything about anything. 

I think the same thing about most of your posts.   But I have to say, on this one thing you are spot on.
Carry on
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If you build something/widget in your basement/workshop all by yourself taking hundreds of hours of your time to make, and you market it through some medium, but you don't sell one widget, how much is it worth?

That is a different question from whether that value, whatever it is, was derived from my labor, as opposed to capital. 

Marx was correct in his insight that considerable value-add came from labor, but he was mistaken in thinking that the owners of capital were nothing but rent-seeking parasites, and AOC is mistaken in thinking that you can run the formula backwards and thinking that the mere fact that labor creates value ipso facto requires that this value be translated into a specific quantum of dollars. 

Offline mystery-ak

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I think the same thing about most of your posts.   But I have to say, on this one thing you are spot on.
Carry on

Well that was a back handed compliment...
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Offline Wingnut

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Well that was a back handed compliment...

It is what is what it was.  Some say,  I am growing.  Not many.  I was stunted.  Too many cigs and stuff at EIU
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Offline mystery-ak

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It is what is what it was.  Some say,  I am growing.  Not many.  I was stunted.  Too many cigs and stuff at EIU

Now that makes sense...EIU is nothing but a party school.....

You still have some *growing* to do...
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 12:28:19 am by mystery-ak »
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Offline Wingnut

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Now that makes sense...EIU is nothing but a party school.....

You still have some *growing* to do...

Admissions turned down.  So sad.
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Offline To-Whose-Benefit?

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Yep. Just like the price of a hammer has no relation to the value of the houses it builds.

Hah!

There are scads of fat, homely women who get 4 or more guys a night to Pay them $25 for sex.

That does not make them a shoe in for the next Miss America.
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Offline goatprairie

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That is a different question from whether that value, whatever it is, was derived from my labor, as opposed to capital. 

Marx was correct in his insight that considerable value-add came from labor, but he was mistaken in thinking that the owners of capital were nothing but rent-seeking parasites, and AOC is mistaken in thinking that you can run the formula backwards and thinking that the mere fact that labor creates value ipso facto requires that this value be translated into a specific quantum of dollars.
You made a statement that labor, in itself, holds material value. It doesn't hold any material value unless what it produces creates value.
It sounds cruel and inhuman to say so, but people are just like inanimate machines or fixtures in a factory. Labor is assigned a value by the business, and workers are units.  Robots are similarly units.
If a person or robot doesn't produce value for a business, they aren't worth anything. That is why businesses are always looking for ways to minimize costs by reducing the work force and using improved methods/machines.

Offline LegalAmerican

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I don't want to reinvent the wheel.  Dinesh says it well. Labor wants PROFITS too.  Why?  Will Labor take all the expenses or bankruptcy debt too?  The answer is NO.  TYPICAL, SELF ABSORBED, ENTITLED, "ME, ME PEOPLE". Right in the beginning, after wall issue. 


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« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 03:44:53 am by LegalAmerican »

Offline goatprairie

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I don't want to reinvent the wheel.  Dinesh says it well. Labor wants PROFITS too.  Why?  Will Labor take all the expenses or bankruptcy debt too?  The answer is NO.  TYPICAL, SELF ABSORBED, ENTITLED, "ME, ME PEOPLE". Right in the beginning, after wall issue. 


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Say some person starts up a small business and determines he or she needs a few people to help do certain jobs the owner can't do by him or herself.
After a period of time the workers decide that they are being treated unfairly (not paid enough, etc.) and form a union demanding extra money, better working conditions, etc.
The owner then finds a way to run his or her business without the workers  thanks to a new machine(s) or better way of organizing the business.
What should the owner do with the workers....dismiss them as superfluous to running the business or keep them on because people need jobs?
I'd bet a great many liberals would demand the owner keep them on "because people need jobs."
When some new business opens up in my area, reporters for the local rag as usually the first thing they ask is how many people they plan to employ.
Well, it's certainly great if any business hires a lot of people paying them good wages, but as any conservative knows a business only hires as many people as are needed to help run the business. Similarly, no business buys any more equipment than  is necessary.
Both people and machines are labor costs and have no inherent value other than what they contribute to the business.
If a business owner can run a business with just a laptop and no labor force, they'd be nuts not to do so.