Author Topic: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales  (Read 6229 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jazzhead

  • Radicalized
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8,870
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2019, 01:05:22 PM »
Maybe you should take that up with Scalia, who clearly saw no necessary conflict between the prohibition on infringement and a reasonable regulation of firearms. 

As Scalia put it in his opinion in D.C. v. Heller, “Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited.”

Scalia was, I believe, an originalist, so unless he was paid off by the liberal cabal, then it is not as unlimited as all that.

QFT. 
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

   - Duke Ellington, upon hearing of the death of Louis Armstrong

"Not forever.  Just for now"

    - Jay Farrar

Offline thackney

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8,278
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2019, 01:09:12 PM »
Unlike some here,  I don't believe that some Constitutional rights are more equal than others.   (Note that I am not suggesting that the 2A is less equal than others because of the predicate clause, although liberals typically take that position.)     

Whether a Constitutional right is established by the text of the document or by operation of the Supreme Court's authority to interpret and construe the document,  it remains subject to reasonable regulation that does not infringe on the core right.    The State may regulate neither guns nor abortion out of existence.     But, as I said, if the State can require abortion providers to have hospital admitting privileges, it can require private firearms transactions to take place through the medium of a licensed gun dealer.   I'd like to see less hypocrisy of the "rights for me but not for thee" variety.

I believe the specific language of the constitution and amendments was chose for a reason, not arbitrarily.

I don't equate a right they found through interpretation having the same strength and clarity of one specifically spelled out.

Life is fragile, handle with prayer

Offline mrpotatohead

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,386
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2019, 01:10:40 PM »
The only result of such legislation will be to make criminals out of previously law-abiding citizens.

 Secondly to create advances in 3D printing.

No existing criminals will be impacted.
:amen:
Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

Offline Jazzhead

  • Radicalized
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8,870
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2019, 01:26:31 PM »
I believe the specific language of the constitution and amendments was chose for a reason, not arbitrarily.

I don't equate a right they found through interpretation having the same strength and clarity of one specifically spelled out.

Why?  Rights are rights.  Why should some Constitutional rights be second class?   

Ironically, many 2A advocates are concerned that the 2A is being treated as a second-class right; it's been a decade or so since the SCOTUS in Heller found an individual RKBA,  but it has rarely reviewed the numerous post -Heller attempts by the States to regulate guns and gun ownership.    Numerous courts are ready and willing to guard the abortion right against unconstitutional infringement;  but the same zeal to defend the 2A appears to be lacking.   
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

   - Duke Ellington, upon hearing of the death of Louis Armstrong

"Not forever.  Just for now"

    - Jay Farrar

Offline Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 38,391
  • "Heads I win, Tails you lose."
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2019, 01:31:41 PM »
I believe the specific language of the constitution and amendments was chose for a reason, not arbitrarily.

I don't equate a right they found through interpretation having the same strength and clarity of one specifically spelled out.

That's why we have clever lawyers:  To distort the plain words of the Constitution until they get interpreted the way they want.  The Rats and their fellow travelers have been at this for over a century.

Example:  "But but but...the 'Predicate clause' in the Second Amendment allows the States to erase the right to keep and bear arms because they don't have a Militia!!" 

Another example:  "But but but...the First Amendment creates a wall between the State and religion!"

"But but but...the 14th Amendment demands birthright citizenship!"

That's how plain meaning becomes something else by clever lawyering.
I will NOT comply.
                                                                                           :dontfeed:
Home Sweet Home!

Offline Jazzhead

  • Radicalized
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8,870
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2019, 02:24:51 PM »
That's why we have clever lawyers:  To distort the plain words of the Constitution until they get interpreted the way they want.  The Rats and their fellow travelers have been at this for over a century.

Example:  "But but but...the 'Predicate clause' in the Second Amendment allows the States to erase the right to keep and bear arms because they don't have a Militia!!" 

Another example:  "But but but...the First Amendment creates a wall between the State and religion!"

"But but but...the 14th Amendment demands birthright citizenship!"

That's how plain meaning becomes something else by clever lawyering.

Except that the "plain meaning" of the Constitution suggests the interpretations you're rejecting.   It took over 200 years and a SCOTUS opinion, for example, for an individual right to KBA to be recognized as a Constitutional right.    The 14th amendment says plainly that those born here are citizens.  And the First amendment's "shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"  has always suggested to me, as a literal matter,  Jefferson's wall of separation.   Indeed,  it is the "clever lawyers" who have urged the expansion or clarification of these "enumerated" rights to reach the conclusions you favor.   
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

   - Duke Ellington, upon hearing of the death of Louis Armstrong

"Not forever.  Just for now"

    - Jay Farrar

Offline Bill Cipher

  • Let's Make a Deal
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,856
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2019, 02:31:35 PM »
That's why we have clever lawyers:  To distort the plain words of the Constitution until they get interpreted the way they want.  The Rats and their fellow travelers have been at this for over a century.

Example:  "But but but...the 'Predicate clause' in the Second Amendment allows the States to erase the right to keep and bear arms because they don't have a Militia!!" 

Another example:  "But but but...the First Amendment creates a wall between the State and religion!"

"But but but...the 14th Amendment demands birthright citizenship!"

That's how plain meaning becomes something else by clever lawyering.

Keep in mind that, without “clever lawyers” the Bill of Rights would almost certainly not have been incorporated and applied to the states through the 14th Amendment, with the result that the states would be free to outright ban ownership of firearms, including 22 caliber plinkers. 

So, be careful whom one belittles.  They may have helped more than one imagines. 

Offline Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 38,391
  • "Heads I win, Tails you lose."
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2019, 02:55:40 PM »
Except that the "plain meaning" of the Constitution suggests the interpretations you're rejecting.   It took over 200 years and a SCOTUS opinion, for example, for an individual right to KBA to be recognized as a Constitutional right.    The 14th amendment says plainly that those born here are citizens.  And the First amendment's "shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"  has always suggested to me, as a literal matter,  Jefferson's wall of separation.   Indeed,  it is the "clever lawyers" who have urged the expansion or clarification of these "enumerated" rights to reach the conclusions you favor.   

In the words of Ronald Reagan:  "There you go again."
I will NOT comply.
                                                                                           :dontfeed:
Home Sweet Home!

Offline Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 38,391
  • "Heads I win, Tails you lose."
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2019, 02:57:35 PM »
Keep in mind that, without “clever lawyers” the Bill of Rights would almost certainly not have been incorporated and applied to the states through the 14th Amendment, with the result that the states would be free to outright ban ownership of firearms, including 22 caliber plinkers. 

So, be careful whom one belittles.  They may have helped more than one imagines.

Clever lawyers have informed me the 14th amendment does not apply to states regulating guns. Scroll a couple of posts up.
I will NOT comply.
                                                                                           :dontfeed:
Home Sweet Home!

Offline Bill Cipher

  • Let's Make a Deal
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,856
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2019, 02:58:20 PM »
In the words of Ronald Reagan:  "There you go again."

Wasn’t Reagan’s statement “there you go again, again”?  I always thought it was brilliant. 

Offline Bill Cipher

  • Let's Make a Deal
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,856
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #60 on: March 05, 2019, 03:01:18 PM »
Clever lawyers have informed me the 14th amendment does not apply to states regulating guns. Scroll a couple of posts up.

In McDonald v. Chicago the court applied the second to the states via the 14th Amendment. 

Offline Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 38,391
  • "Heads I win, Tails you lose."
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #61 on: March 05, 2019, 03:14:09 PM »
In McDonald v. Chicago the court applied the second to the states via the 14th Amendment.

Yes, but I've also been told here that unless Congress codifies Heller and McDonald, it isn't a right and a leftist court can erase it as easily as they created it.   :shrug:

"Rights are not inherent in the plain language of the Constitution, nor granted by some magical sky spirit.  They must be granted by a benevolent government."

I don't believe this claptrap, but it seems to be the prevalent understanding of "rights" in the 21st Century.  Health and child care are rights.  To not have to hear arguments that challenge one's beliefs are another right.  Silly things written into the Constitution are subject to interpretation.
I will NOT comply.
                                                                                           :dontfeed:
Home Sweet Home!

Offline Bill Cipher

  • Let's Make a Deal
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,856
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #62 on: March 05, 2019, 03:18:00 PM »
Yes, but I've also been told here that unless Congress codifies Heller and McDonald, it isn't a right and a leftist court can erase it as easily as they created it.   :shrug:

"Rights are not inherent in the plain language of the Constitution, nor granted by some magical sky spirit.  They must be granted by a benevolent government."

I don't believe this claptrap, but it seems to be the prevalent understanding of "rights" in the 21st Century.  Health and child care are rights.  To not have to hear arguments that challenge one's beliefs are another right.  Silly things written into the Constitution are subject to interpretation.

It’s unlikely at this point that it would get summarily reversed, for the same reason that Roe v. Wade won’t get reversed, but that is the problem with that prefatory language. 

Offline Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 38,391
  • "Heads I win, Tails you lose."
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #63 on: March 05, 2019, 03:22:14 PM »
It’s unlikely at this point that it would get summarily reversed, for the same reason that Roe v. Wade won’t get reversed, but that is the problem with that prefatory language.

Precisely.

A "right" is not a right if 18th Century language can be interpreted with evolving 21st Century English to mean the opposite of what it says.

"Elastic Clause."
I will NOT comply.
                                                                                           :dontfeed:
Home Sweet Home!

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 15,158
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #64 on: March 05, 2019, 03:23:20 PM »
Unlike some here,  I don't believe that some Constitutional rights are more equal than others.   (Note that I am not suggesting that the 2A is less equal than others because of the predicate clause, although liberals typically take that position.)     

Whether a Constitutional right is established by the text of the document or by operation of the Supreme Court's authority to interpret and construe the document,  it remains subject to reasonable regulation that does not infringe on the core right.    The State may regulate neither guns nor abortion out of existence.     But, as I said, if the State can require abortion providers to have hospital admitting privileges, it can require private firearms transactions to take place through the medium of a licensed gun dealer.   I'd like to see less hypocrisy of the "rights for me but not for thee" variety.

You might be right except for one thing: Abortion is not a right. Abortion is the murder of innocents, and is in no wise to be found in the Constitution, by any means. It stands directly against the first enumerated right - The Right to Life. It stands outside of the only means of sanctioning death that the government is Constitutionally allowed.

In that your argument is not only moribund and banal, but so easily dismissed as to not even require a moment of thought.

MEH.

Offline Bill Cipher

  • Let's Make a Deal
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,856
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #65 on: March 05, 2019, 03:24:20 PM »
Precisely.

A "right" is not a right if 18th Century language can be interpreted with evolving 21st Century English to mean the opposite of what it says.

"Elastic Clause."

Disagree. The right is there, the question is what are the contours and bounds of the language used.  The problem is that the Founders were too prolix for their own good and should have been clearer on what the right extended to.  They weren’t, which leads to the problem. 

Offline andy58-in-nh

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,059
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #66 on: March 05, 2019, 03:25:52 PM »
Yes, but I've also been told here that unless Congress codifies Heller and McDonald, it isn't a right and a leftist court can erase it as easily as they created it.   :shrug:

"Rights are not inherent in the plain language of the Constitution, nor granted by some magical sky spirit.  They must be granted by a benevolent government."

I don't believe this claptrap, but it seems to be the prevalent understanding of "rights" in the 21st Century.  Health and child care are rights.  To not have to hear arguments that challenge one's beliefs are another right.  Silly things written into the Constitution are subject to interpretation.

Rights come from our nature as sentient beings, or from the God that created us. Anyone who insists otherwise is trying to take one or more of them from you. The legitimacy of laws and of the government that is empowered to enforce them comes only from the people at whose pleasure the government serves, or else has no true moral or legal authority. Freedom is lost when citizens abdicate their personal responsibility, and instead allow fear, prejudice and envy to guide them.     
Socialism is like the monster in "It" - every thirty years or so it returns to devour the young.

Offline dfwgator

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 11,355
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #67 on: March 05, 2019, 03:27:13 PM »

 Secondly to create advances in 3D printing.

 

Can you 3D print bullets?

Offline thackney

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8,278
Life is fragile, handle with prayer

Offline Bill Cipher

  • Let's Make a Deal
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,856
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #69 on: March 05, 2019, 03:30:48 PM »
You might be right except for one thing: Abortion is not a right. Abortion is the murder of innocents, and is in no wise to be found in the Constitution, by any means. It stands directly against the first enumerated right - The Right to Life. It stands outside of the only means of sanctioning death that the government is Constitutionally allowed.

In that your argument is not only moribund and banal, but so easily dismissed as to not even require a moment of thought.

MEH.

Disagree.  It’s rather well spelled out in Roe itself. 

Offline Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 38,391
  • "Heads I win, Tails you lose."
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #70 on: March 05, 2019, 03:31:27 PM »
Rights come from our nature as sentient beings, or from the God that created us. Anyone who insists otherwise is trying to take one or more of them from you. The legitimacy of laws and of the government that is empowered to enforce them comes only from the people at whose pleasure the government serves, or else has no true moral or legal authority. Freedom is lost when citizens abdicate their personal responsibility, and instead allow fear, prejudice and envy to guide them.   

You, I and many others have been making that claim, which is brushed aside by clever lawyers who know all the answers.  You, I and the others are just ignorant fools, pining for a past that no longer exists never existed in the first place.
I will NOT comply.
                                                                                           :dontfeed:
Home Sweet Home!

Offline Bill Cipher

  • Let's Make a Deal
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,856
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2019, 03:31:48 PM »
Can you 3D print bullets?

With or without casings, primers, and propellant?

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 15,158
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #72 on: March 05, 2019, 03:32:51 PM »
Disagree.  It’s rather well spelled out in Roe itself.

Roe is wrong.

Offline Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 38,391
  • "Heads I win, Tails you lose."
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #73 on: March 05, 2019, 03:33:06 PM »
Disagree.  It’s rather well spelled out in Roe itself.

Perfect illustration of what I've been going on about:  Plain Language takes a back seat to interpretation.
I will NOT comply.
                                                                                           :dontfeed:
Home Sweet Home!

Offline Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 38,391
  • "Heads I win, Tails you lose."
Re: House passes bill to require universal background checks on gun sales
« Reply #74 on: March 05, 2019, 03:34:16 PM »
With or without casings, primers, and propellant?

I would presume not.  You described a "cartridge," not a "bullet."
I will NOT comply.
                                                                                           :dontfeed:
Home Sweet Home!


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf