Author Topic: Three dead after a Boeing 767 Atlas Air cargo jet operating for Amazon Prime Air plunges into a bay  (Read 1681 times)

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Offline mrpotatohead

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"But loss of instrumentation in a storm might."  True, the Airbus flight out of South America a number of years back bears that out.

What I'm saying is that most aircraft have some kind of glide slope (except helos) and even with engine loss, the APU should provide power and backup emergency hydraulics to control the aircraft. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider 

Nose diving in just brings us to other possible scenarios.
This guy who is a former 767 pilot and now a 777 pilot has his thoughts on the crash.  He's quite good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwki7Qutoas
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Online Elderberry

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Cockpit voice recorder found at Texas cargo plane crash site

https://www.kwtx.com/content/news/Cockpit-voice-recorder-found-at-Texas-cargo-plane-crash-site-506565021.html

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ANAHUAC, Texas (AP) Authorities say they have recovered the cockpit voice recorder from a Boeing 767 cargo plane that crashed into a Texas bay.

Local and federal officials have been scouring Trinity Bay for clues about the crash since Flight 3591 slammed nose-first into its shallow waters Saturday.

The National Transportation Safety Board says in a tweet that the voice recorder is being taken to the agency's labs in Washington, D.C. for analysis.
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Offline mrpotatohead

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Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

Online Elderberry

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Simply amazing how they can find those things.....

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https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-26/black-box-flight-recorders/5343456

Black boxes are fitted with an underwater locator beacon that starts emitting a pulse if its sensor touches water. They work to a depth of just over four kilometres, and can "ping" once a second for 30 days before the battery runs out,
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Offline SZonian

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This guy who is a former 767 pilot and now a 777 pilot has his thoughts on the crash.  He's quite good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwki7Qutoas
Yes he is, and good at informing.
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Offline NavyCanDo

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Not ruling out another automated Elevator Trim Tab failure....which could and has caused nose-down crashes.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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"But loss of instrumentation in a storm might."  True, the Airbus flight out of South America a number of years back bears that out.

What I'm saying is that most aircraft have some kind of glide slope (except helos) and even with engine loss, the APU should provide power and backup emergency hydraulics to control the aircraft. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider 

Nose diving in just brings us to other possible scenarios.
The Gimli Glider crew were blessed with clear air, good visibility, just no fuel. The absence of severe air movements found in thunderstorms doubtless helped, although they could have used quite a few more liters of fuel...

IIRC, the time for power up from dead to the APU kicking in is roughly two minutes.

A plane could get in a lot of trouble in those two minutes, and they didn't start with a lot of air between them and the ground.
Think sudden up and down drafts, turbulence, and no visual reference, no instruments....120 seconds is a long time.
We will know more when the flight recorder data comes out.

From your link:
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The 767 was one of the first airliners to include an electronic flight instrument system, which operated on the electricity generated by the aircraft's jet engines. With both engines stopped, the system went dead, leaving only a few basic battery-powered emergency flight instruments. While these provided sufficient information with which to land the aircraft, a vertical speed indicator—that would indicate the rate at which the aircraft was descending, information which could be used to predict how long it could glide unpowered—was not among them.

On airliners the size of the 767, the engines also supply power for the hydraulic systems, without which the aircraft cannot be controlled. Such aircraft are therefore required to be equipped with a means to compensate for this kind of power failure. With the 767, that compensation is usually achieved through the automated deployment of a ram air turbine, a backup generator that generates power from air movement, like a wind turbine.[9] As the Gimli pilots reduced speed for landing, the resultant reduced airflow meant a decrease in the hydraulic power, power that was critically needed for control during landing.

At issue is whether the engines were providing power during the sharp descent. If so, then the hydraulics and instrumentation should have also been functional, and that would lead us to other possibilities when it comes to the sharp descent.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Not ruling out another automated Elevator Trim Tab failure....which could and has caused nose-down crashes.
We can't rule out much at  this point, and a mechanical failure is a possibility.
Others include (possibly weather related) loss of power, control, or instrumentation.

Actions of flight crew either intentionally or unintentionally causing. the aircraft to dive.

The voice recorder has been recovered, so I reckon we're going to find out.
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Flight data recorder from Trinity Bay crash site found

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Flight-data-recorder-from-Trinity-Bay-crash-site-13659811.php

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A mud-caked flight data recorder was recovered Sunday from the site of a cargo jet wreckage in Trinity Bay.

The black box was one of two devices that National Transportation Safety Board investigators hope will shed light on what caused the Boeing 767 aircraft to crash in Anahuac during a Feb. 23 flight from Miami to Houston's Bush Intercontinental. Investigators will analyze the data — the plane's functions, altitude and other measures — in Washington D.C., officials said.

More at link above.
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NTSB Report: Cargo Plane That Crashed Near Anahuac Appears To Have Hit Turbulence

https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/2019/03/12/325021/ntsb-report-cargo-plane-that-crashed-near-anahuac-appears-to-have-hit-turbulence/

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According to the report, “small vertical accelerations” suggest Atlas Air Flight 3591 entered turbulence soon after the pilots had descended to avoid a band of precipitation as they approached Bush Intercontinental  Airport.

A preliminary report from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) about the deadly plane crash that occurred near Anahuac on February 23 indicates the aircraft appears to have hit turbulence a minute before it entered a steep descent that ended when the plane smashed into Trinity Bay.

According to the report, “small vertical accelerations” suggest Atlas Air Flight 3591 entered turbulence soon after the pilots had descended to avoid a band of precipitation as they approached Houston’s Bush Intercontinental  Airport. The three people aboard the aircraft, two pilots and a passenger, died in the accident.

Seconds after leveling off around 6,200 feet, the cargo plane’s engines surged to “maximum thrust” and it briefly pointed its nose 4 degrees up, according to flight data. The jet then rapidly swung to point 49 degrees downward and began its drop toward the muddy bay, the federal agency said.

NTSB spokesman, Keith Holloway, said the agency is still investigating the underlying cause of the sharp change in pitch. It’s a move that alarmed aviation experts.

More at link
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Online Elderberry

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“Obviously, going 49 degrees nose down is beyond a radical move,” said Todd Curtis, a former Boeing safety engineer who runs AirSafe.com. “That’s not something an airplane should be doing, especially at that altitude.”

Curtis said it remains unclear whether a problem with the plane’s systems or human action was primarily to blame for the crash. If it’s a technical issue, he said, that could warrant a broader review of the widely-used Boeing aircraft.

The NTSB previously said cockpit audio suggests the pilots lost control while passing over Trinity Bay, about 40 miles east of Bush Intercontinental Airport.

Before the crash, the plane’s stick shaker, which warns of an imminent engine stall, did not activate, according to the NTSB. That means it’s unlikely the pilots pointed the nose down to avoid stalling.

As the plane dropped, the agency said, it accelerated to 495 mph and gradually pulled up to a 20-degree descent. Curtis said this suggests the crew were trying to pull out of steep fall.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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If this was an autopilot/auto trim computer malfunction, that's two types involved. Is someone hacking Boeing's onboard software?
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