Author Topic: HAMMER: Roberts And Kavanaugh’s Death Penalty Betrayal Again Shows Why Conservatives Never Win The L  (Read 6815 times)

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Offline TomSea

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There was that terrible case, I know some hoodlums killed a pizza parlor worker, may have been a driver. I thought that was just horrible. He was doing nothing yet, and this happened in Tennessee, I'm not sure they are pursuing the death penalty in that case. It cause an outrage, maybe other people remember it. And in some parts of the country, those convenience stores get knocked over all the time and I'd say in all parts of the country, it happens from time to time. There might be some fairly safe locations at that.

Online roamer_1

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Electrocute/hang/gas/shoot/inject the b@stards, after they have been found guilty, of course.


Well, to be fair, that's a little much... Any one will do...

Offline Smokin Joe

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Nuremberg is international law.

Even if a pervert kills someone heinously, what if you have some guy who kills two people in a street robbery? How about in a gangland execution?  Kills a clerk in a hotel robbery? How are these less worthy of the death penalty?

I will skip the Bible part as this is not a religious forum and it was my error to bring that up.

We have generally reserved the death penalty for the most horrific crimes, committed with malice, with forethought. This requires an element of planning to commit the crime, the outcome (up until the arrest of the perpetrator) being something desired and worked toward.
Commonly the condemned has perpetrated multiple crimes, often similar in nature, and often involving some sort of distinct sexual, predatory, perverse, or otherwise unacceptable act, based on the nature of the act and sometimes the age and type of victim. Cannibalism is not unknown.

There is a world of difference between the street thug who reacts to a robbery 'going bad' by shooting and killing his intended victim in order to escape, and someone who surveils a child in order to abduct them, perform sex acts or torture upon them, and murder them. Wouldn't you agree?

In the first instance, murder is not the objective, stealing is. Murder is a possibility, given that force is available and may be perceived as necessary to complete the robbery or to deter resistance, but not the objective.

In the second, aside from whatever twisted sexual gratification the perpetrator gets, murder is the objective.

If the murder of innocent children isn't enough to cross that threshold where the perpetrator should be eliminated from society, permanently, the sexual violation and murder of children isn't, how about a terrorist act? How about a mass murderer? (Don't hide behind Nuremberg being "international law" this time.)

How about for Treason?

Do you just say "no" to capital punishment for any and all crimes, no matter how heinous?
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline TomSea

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Someone texting while driving may kill a loved one, a father, a mother, a sister, a brother, friend and so on.

Though, you have cases of torture and heinous acts,   the death penalty is rarely done,  I know what qualifies but I'm sure a lot of other heinous acts are NOT given the death penalty.

You can say, okay, then there should be 500 executions a year say, even 1,500 but that is not the reality of the situation, that is unreal and should not be considered. It's our 16,000 murders a year in the USA and around 25 executed a year.

All of the killings have victims and victims' families.  Where's there closure.

Someone texts and kills, 5 years, out on probation in 3 for an example, rob a liquor store, probably even a worse sentence. That doesn't seem exactly just.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 04:48:47 am by TomSea »

Offline TomSea

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We have generally reserved the death penalty for the most horrific crimes, committed with malice, with forethought. This requires an element of planning to commit the crime, the outcome (up until the arrest of the perpetrator) being something desired and worked toward.
Commonly the condemned has perpetrated multiple crimes, often similar in nature, and often involving some sort of distinct sexual, predatory, perverse, or otherwise unacceptable act, based on the nature of the act and sometimes the age and type of victim. Cannibalism is not unknown.

There is a world of difference between the street thug who reacts to a robbery 'going bad' by shooting and killing his intended victim in order to escape, and someone who surveils a child in order to abduct them, perform sex acts or torture upon them, and murder them. Wouldn't you agree?

In the first instance, murder is not the objective, stealing is. Murder is a possibility, given that force is available and may be perceived as necessary to complete the robbery or to deter resistance, but not the objective.

In the second, aside from whatever twisted sexual gratification the perpetrator gets, murder is the objective.

If the murder of innocent children isn't enough to cross that threshold where the perpetrator should be eliminated from society, permanently, the sexual violation and murder of children isn't, how about a terrorist act? How about a mass murderer? (Don't hide behind Nuremberg being "international law" this time.)

How about for Treason?

Do you just say "no" to capital punishment for any and all crimes, no matter how heinous?

So, the street thug kills an innocent person but his family is not worth as much as the other person who was treated heinously? You talked of victims but these others are victims too. Do you just say tough luck? Aren't you robbing them of justice then?

Online roamer_1

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Of course @XenaLee , which is why I'd like to know if being dismissive about the killing of an innocent by the state is something we now subscribe to (as the poster does).  If so, how do we reconcile this with the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?


That is a rather warped view of what I said @Right_in_Virginia .
I am neither dismissive nor do I subscribe to the state taking innocent life.
What I said is that mistakes are bound to happen, and I can live with that - That mistakes DO happen, in any system, no matter how rigid.

That is not to sanction those mistakes.

But neither will I subscribe to your alternative which does not give the murderer (or rapist too, in my mind) his due, nor does it cause the malcontent to ponder his chances while premeditating an escalation into murder.

Your sophistry is no solution, and precisely why murderers are free in under a decade... And you may want to check out the recidivism rates.

Offline TomSea

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Anyway, this case in the supreme court, is not a general debate about the death penalty, I'm not against the death penalty, it should be explored.

However, at this time, to only give the death penalty to .005 of death row, does not seem like justice. The other persons murdered have a right to justice but are not being given that justice.  You can't tell me, with the motive of killing, that taking one life is worse, than taking another. Even with pre-planning the murder and so forth. I don't see why. That is how the law judges it. Georgia had an execution where the woman who paid to have her husband murdered was executed or scheduled, I think they executed her but the actual killer was not executed. There are some nuances.

And we don't have 3,000 executions a year. Take Texas, will they have 5 executions from say, as an example, 1000 murders in a year? That's not a very good percentage of justice then.

There are weaknesses in the system and this is dealing with the reality of it; the execution rate is low.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Someone texting while driving may kill a loved one, a father, a mother, a sister, a brother, friend and so on.

Though, you have cases of torture and heinous acts,   the death penalty is rarely done,  I know what qualifies but I'm sure a lot of other heinous acts are given the death penalty.

You can say, okay, then there should be 500 executions a year say, even 1,500 but that is not the reality of the situation, that is unreal and should not be considered. It's our 16,000 murders a year in the USA and around 25 executed a year.

All of the killings have victims and victims' families.  Where's there closure.
First off, texting, while grievous stupidity, is far from hunting down a child for perverse acts and their eventual murder.

As for establishing a number, a quota, there is no worse way to subvert justice.
 "Oops, you are number 16,000. Sorry about that, but you will be an example to jaywalkers everywhere! "
Yep. That'll make 'em use the crosswalks.

You speak of 16,000 murders a year, but many (40% nationwide) of those will go unsolved. Hard to pronounce sentence on someone when you don't know who that is. The perpetrator may even have been the victim of a reprisal. In that sense, the death penalty may have been carried out unofficially, but that sort of vigilantism often breeds more reprisals, and leads to gang warfare, blood feuds, and the like. It is neither policy, nor official, but it adds to the body count while not showing up as either a solved crime nor a sentence fulfilled.

The percentage of unsolved murders varies by state, and here are the top ten for not getting their perpetrator.
(The full list is here: http://www.unz.com/anepigone/rates-of-unsolved-murder-by-state/ )

State    Unknown
1. District of Columbia    56.1%
2. Illinois    55.4%
3. Maryland    46.1%
4. New York    44.0%
5. California    43.9%
6. Massachusetts    43.8%
7. Rhode Island    42.0%
8. New Jersey    41.8%
9. Michigan    38.8%
10. Connecticut    37.1%

The percentages are the unsolved homicides.
Only one of those jurisdictions has the option of sentencing a convict to death.

For the number of murders by state, (2017) look here: https://www.statista.com/statistics/195331/number-of-murders-in-the-us-by-state/

(I am fortunate enough to live in a state with both few murders and very few unsolved ones. )

So, of the 16000 (national) homicides, fully 6400 go unsolved. That leaves 9600 homicides, many of which occur in non-death penalty states.

Comparing those few cases where the death penalty is invoked to the entire nation is sketchy logic at best.

Levying of the death penalty is something which should be done only after careful consideration of the individual case. As an effective deterrent, it is questionable, with the average time from sentencing to execution of 15 years, many (except the victims/victims relatives) have forgotten the crime, long lost in the short attention span news cycle.
But for those who remember, it will eat away at the lives of the survivors for that long and longer. The person whose innocence, mother, father, brother, sister, child, wife, husband, and/or friend they lost will be gone for the rest of their lives.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 06:25:23 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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That is a rather warped view of what I said @Right_in_Virginia .
I am neither dismissive nor do I subscribe to the state taking innocent life.
What I said is that mistakes are bound to happen, and I can live with that - That mistakes DO happen, in any system, no matter how rigid.

That is not to sanction those mistakes. 

It's not a warped view @roamer_1 of what you said ... it is your direct quote. 

I simply do not agree with your plan that we "restore the dead man's good name and take care of his widow" is an acceptable remedy for the state killing an undeserving soul.  What ever happened to it is better to let 100 guilty go free than incarcerate one innocent?  Shouldn't this also apply to a state killing?  Isn't this what we should be fighting for?

There was a time when your statement --- and attempts to justify it ---  would have been considered an antonym to the conservative first principles of life and liberty. 

I think the opinion you expressed is chilling ... and takes us more than half way down a dark and slippery slope.  There is no argument, no insult that will change my mind. 

Enjoy your Friday.

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It's not a warped view @roamer_1 of what you said ... it is your direct quote. 

I simply do not agree with your plan that we "restore the dead man's good name and take care of his widow" is an acceptable remedy for the state killing an undeserving soul.  What ever happened to it is better to let 100 guilty go free than incarcerate one innocent?  Shouldn't this also apply to a state killing?  Isn't this what we should be fighting for?


You may fight for it all you like @Right_in_Virginia (and I would join you in that to a certain point). But not to the point of the dysfunction of rule-of-law, a point we had reached long before today. Including the absurd proposition that the death penalty should be removed. Removed, hell no. We need a fast lane.

Not only is that a Conservative position, it has been so my whole life long.

Quote
There was a time when your statement --- and attempts to justify it ---  would have been considered an antonym to the conservative first principles of life and liberty. 

That is not true. Historically, the death penalty was exercised far more liberally than it is today. You know, back when children could play in the streets, and shopkeepers didn't need 24hr video cams.

Quote
I think the opinion you expressed is chilling ... and takes us more than half way down a dark and slippery slope.  There is no argument, no insult that will change my mind. 

Reality's a bitch, ain't it? I wonder how your opinion would change if you had a personal stake in it?
I wonder how you'd think about it if you had a personal friend who was brutally raped for days, and tortuously murdered, and the POS that did it was still breathing air, not to mention free and living in your town... I wonder how you'd be if you were the mother, forced to relive the death of a child as you travel every four years to a prison to confront your child's killer, over and over to keep that bastard from getting parole, and at least keep his sorry ass locked up. I wonder who your heart would bleed for then?

Quote

Enjoy your Friday.

You too.

Offline XenaLee

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You may fight for it all you like @Right_in_Virginia (and I would join you in that to a certain point). But not to the point of the dysfunction of rule-of-law, a point we had reached long before today. Including the absurd proposition that the death penalty should be removed. Removed, hell no. We need a fast lane.

Not only is that a Conservative position, it has been so my whole life long.

That is not true. Historically, the death penalty was exercised far more liberally than it is today. You know, back when children could play in the streets, and shopkeepers didn't need 24hr video cams.

Reality's a bitch, ain't it? I wonder how your opinion would change if you had a personal stake in it?
I wonder how you'd think about it if you had a personal friend who was brutally raped for days, and tortuously murdered, and the POS that did it was still breathing air, not to mention free and living in your town... I wonder how you'd be if you were the mother, forced to relive the death of a child as you travel every four years to a prison to confront your child's killer, over and over to keep that bastard from getting parole, and at least keep his sorry ass locked up. I wonder who your heart would bleed for then?

You too.

Funny how... it's always different... and their opinions change.... if/when it's one of their family members or kids that gets killed or is victimized by one of the slimebags on death row.  And what's even more hypocritical of the anti-death penalty morons is.... they're all-in re: abortion and support it 100%.  No to killing the convicted guilty, Yes to killing the innocent unborn.  As usual, the illogicality reeks.
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Funny how... it's always different... and their opinions change.... if/when it's one of their family members or kids that gets killed or is victimized by one of the slimebags on death row.  And what's even more hypocritical of the anti-death penalty morons is.... they're all-in re: abortion and support it 100%.  No to killing the convicted guilty, Yes to killing the innocent unborn.  As usual, the illogicality reeks.

That's right.

Offline txradioguy

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Funny how... it's always different... and their opinions change.... if/when it's one of their family members or kids that gets killed or is victimized by one of the slimebags on death row.  And what's even more hypocritical of the anti-death penalty morons is.... they're all-in re: abortion and support it 100%.  No to killing the convicted guilty, Yes to killing the innocent unborn.  As usual, the illogicality reeks.

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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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@Smokin Joe

But crime victims are killed by the heinous act of an individual. The death sentence is an act carried out by the state. Seems to me there’s a difference.

We can’t anticipate nor rationalize random violence. But, we can control what we as a state will accept as humane treatment for the guilty.

Islamists accept beheadings with the head placed on a pike in the public square. A civil society shouldn’t ever accept such a obscene act.
Why?

I think it is very civil procedure to protect our citizenry by ensuring the consequences of crime meted out is seen and understood by all.

Are you more for hiding these consequences?

Clear viewing of ramifications is easily comprehended even for the dumbest individuals in our society.
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Offline aligncare

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Why?

I think it is very civil procedure to protect our citizenry by ensuring the consequences of crime meted out is seen and understood by all.

Are you more for hiding these consequences?

Clear viewing of ramifications is easily comprehended even for the dumbest individuals in our society.

I’m sorry to bring this part up, but I don’t think children should see that sort of thing. I find it upsetting myself, I can only imagine what those images can do to a small child. Do we want to raise our children into that universe? Is that the kind of world we want to build for the future? Or, is there another way?

Yes, man fell from grace; the Bible tells me that sin is in our nature. But, there must be room for goodness, cooperation, compassion, sympathy in this world, even in the heart of sinful mankind.

Offline Smokin Joe

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I’m sorry to bring this part up, but I don’t think children should see that sort of thing. I find it upsetting myself, I can only imagine what those images can do to a small child. Do we want to raise our children into that universe? Is that the kind of world we want to build for the future? Or, is there another way?

Yes, man fell from grace; the Bible tells me that sin is in our nature. But, there must be room for goodness, cooperation, compassion, sympathy in this world, even in the heart of sinful mankind.
Well, don't let the kiddies watch.
We used to limit children's exposure to violence, drugs, drunks, and other seedier things in our world.

They can always sit in front of the TV or read the walls in the can at Walmart.  (/sarc, sorta)

But as far as the worst of the worst criminals go, when those murdering SOBs are gone, there will be a little more room for goodness, cooperation, compassion, and sympathy in the world.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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I’m sorry to bring this part up, but I don’t think children should see that sort of thing. I find it upsetting myself, I can only imagine what those images can do to a small child. Do we want to raise our children into that universe? Is that the kind of world we want to build for the future? Or, is there another way?

Yes, man fell from grace; the Bible tells me that sin is in our nature. But, there must be room for goodness, cooperation, compassion, sympathy in this world, even in the heart of sinful mankind.
Parents are the controlling force here, so whether a kid watches or not is up to them.

So that is a very poor excuse for hiding from the public what happens to a convicted murderer the ultimate consequences of his actions.

Discouraging the maintenance of a safe public environment because a few do not perform their parental duties does not wash for me or most Americans.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Online sneakypete

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Parents are the controlling force here, so whether a kid watches or not is up to them.

So that is a very poor excuse for hiding from the public what happens to a convicted murderer the ultimate consequences of his actions.

Discouraging the maintenance of a safe public environment because a few do not perform their parental duties does not wash for me or most Americans.

@IsailedawayfromFR

The state of Va used to have a "rolling electric chair tour" that traveled the state to show people an actual electric chair used in executions. Sort of a public warning if you are planning on being naughty instead of nice.

My mother insisted on taking me on that tour every time it showed up. Never once took me to a movie,a baseball game,or anywhere else,but I never missed the electric chair tour.

Looking back,it seems she had low  expectations for me. As for me,I thought it was cool.
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Offline aligncare

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@IsailedawayfromFR

The state of Va used to have a "rolling electric chair tour" that traveled the state to show people an actual electric chair used in executions. Sort of a public warning if you are planning on being naughty instead of nice.

My mother insisted on taking me on that tour every time it showed up. Never once took me to a movie,a baseball game,or anywhere else,but I never missed the electric chair tour.

Looking back,it seems she had low  expectations for me. As for me,I thought it was cool.

OK, now what if your mother had taking you to see a live electrocution. How do you think you would have reacted to that?

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OK, now what if your mother had taking you to see a live electrocution. How do you think you would have reacted to that?

@aligncare

Beats me. I don't even know why you would ask such a thing.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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OK, now what if your mother had taking you to see a live electrocution. How do you think you would have reacted to that?
I would not have reacted nearly as bad as the 12 year old and 16 year old who witnessed the brutal death of their parents here.  http://murderpedia.org/male.H/h1/hatch-steven-keith.htm

Yeah, this is a real life example rather than some made-up hyperbole.

And this is real close to me, as the two murdered were the pastor who married me and his wife.

@aligncare
« Last Edit: February 23, 2019, 03:48:59 pm by IsailedawayfromFR »
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline XenaLee

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I’m sorry to bring this part up, but I don’t think children should see that sort of thing. I find it upsetting myself, I can only imagine what those images can do to a small child. Do we want to raise our children into that universe? Is that the kind of world we want to build for the future? Or, is there another way?

Yes, man fell from grace; the Bible tells me that sin is in our nature. But, there must be room for goodness, cooperation, compassion, sympathy in this world, even in the heart of sinful mankind.

You say that with a straight face .... yet the left is doing everything they can do to remove that type of reaction ... what I call the (gasp!) Christian reaction... from America as we speak.

Just look at how the Christian Covington kids were treated.... not just because of the MAGA hats, but because they were Christians.  It's getting to the point where if you are Christian... and white.... and not a leftist...

you have a target on you automatically.  So don't expect any such compassion from the left.  You'll be disappointed every time.
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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You may fight for it all you like @Right_in_Virginia (and I would join you in that to a certain point). But not to the point of the dysfunction of rule-of-law, a point we had reached long before today. Including the absurd proposition that the death penalty should be removed. Removed, hell no. We need a fast lane. 

I don't think the death penalty should be eliminated .... nor do I think we need a fast lane.

I think we need to make absolutely shit sure certain the state is killing someone based on complete and uncontested evidence @roamer_1   An "oopsie" every now and then after the needle is injected should not be built into expectations and tolerated.  Not only does this conflict with the conservative promise to protective the right to life and liberty, it is barbaric.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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I don't think the death penalty should be eliminated .... nor do I think we need a fast lane.

I think we need to make absolutely shit sure certain the state is killing someone based on complete and uncontested evidence @roamer_1   An "oopsie" every now and then after the needle is injected should not be built into expectations and tolerated.  Not only does this conflict with the conservative promise to protective the right to life and liberty, it is barbaric.
Rather than rambling on about hypotheticals, got a list of concrete examples where this has occurred?

The list should be quite long as there are about 20,000 murders committed in this country for just a single year and you must be talking about many years.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Rather than rambling on about hypotheticals, got a list of concrete examples where this has occurred?

While anyone has the right to jump into the middle of an ongoing conversation @IsailedawayfromFR this is an example of why it's usually not a good idea.

Go back and read the thread.  You'll better understand my comments after you do.

If you don't .... you're on your own.