(Auto) AFFORDABILITY: THE NEXT FRONTIER.

[Wingnut]

FEBRUARY 12, 2019 AT 04:53PM
By Peter M. DeLorenzo

Detroit. Since we’re in the midst of a market frenzy that prizes circus wagon-sized pickup trucks and SUVs – and the massive profits that they’re generating – as a manufacturer it’s difficult to retain perspective. And it’s easy to see why.

After all, the average transaction price of a new pickup is around $44,000, and fully loaded luxury pickups regularly go for $70,000+, with full-zoot luxury SUVs pushing well into six figures. Those numbers are staggering, and the profits, as I said, are equally staggering. In fact, they’re addictive to the manufacturers.

The pickup truck/SUV sales juggernaut is powering Ford, GM and FCA to new levels of sustainability, at least in the short term anyway. Or, it can be looked at another way, unfortunately, because without the sheer earnings power derived from pickup trucks and SUVs, there is legitimate concern as to whether these companies would even be functioning today.

But then again, as I said last week, this current frenzy is not going to last. The automobile business is at its core a fashion business, and there will come a time when parade float-rivaling SUVs and pickups will fall out of favor. And when the pendulum swings back, it may not be because of rising fuel prices. Instead, it will probably be because the cost of these machines is rising faster than the market can keep up with.
http://www.autoextremist.com/current/2019/2/12/affordability-the-next-frontier.html

[Fishrrman]

Who would pay $45-70,000 for a pickup truck?

I can see paying the lower amount for a work/business vehicle, but to be used as personal transportation?

I guess that's just me.

[Wingnut]

Who would pay $45-70,000 for a pickup truck?

I can see paying the lower amount for a work/business vehicle, but to be used as personal transportation?

I guess that's just me.

It is not just you.

[EdJames]

Count me in as well.  IIRC about $20-25,000 is what I've paid long ago.

[ABX]

Who would pay $45-70,000 for a pickup truck?

I can see paying the lower amount for a work/business vehicle, but to be used as personal transportation?

I guess that's just me.

Around here, two groups. 1. Semi-retired with too much money. And 2. Young guys, 20ish, who get oil field jobs pulling in $150K as their first or second job and don't have any common sense. We even have a Chevy/Dodge dealer here who set up a whole specialty lot to customized trucks, where they take those $50K-70K trucks and customize them up to close to $100K*, and they pour off the lot every time the oil fields hire....

...then, the used car lots are full of repos whenever there is a oil down-turn...



...you can always tell the experienced oilfield guys from the kids. The experienced guys have good, 4WD trucks, jeeps, etc, but never brand new, and never customized up like that. They get a good 30K workhorse and keep it for a decade and 300K miles.



*Example, MSRP, $71,000- Customized up to $94,460.

[Smokin Joe]

Who would pay $45-70,000 for a pickup truck?

I can see paying the lower amount for a work/business vehicle, but to be used as personal transportation?

I guess that's just me.

I paid 800 for mine.

[Wingnut]

The Wall Street Journal reported that the Federal Reserve Bank of New York said that a record seven million Americans are three months behind – or more – on their car loan payments, which is even more than after The Great Recession. It doesn’t take a Futurist to determine that this is a giant bowl of Not Good.

Stupid should hurt more than a repoman taking a morons truck.

[roamer_1]

Who would pay $45-70,000 for a pickup truck?

I can see paying the lower amount for a work/business vehicle, but to be used as personal transportation?

I guess that's just me.

I don't think it is entirely about the money.
There is a point in this about government regulations driving the car market into the dirt.
And another point in that there is nothing in the car market for a large family - If you have a family of six and live outside the city, you are pretty much going to own Suburbans. Because there simply is no other choice that will keep your family safe.

That being said, the most I have personally ever paid for a rig is a few thousand... Anybody that buys new is an idiot in my mind.

[dfwgator]

Stupid should hurt more than a repoman taking a morons truck.

"The life of a Repo Man is always intense."

[Hoodat]

"The life of a Repo Man is always intense."

You got that right.

[Wingnut]

"The life of a Repo Man is always intense."

"Bud lives by the Repo code"

[Smokin Joe]

I don't think it is entirely about the money.
There is a point in this about government regulations driving the car market into the dirt.
And another point in that there is nothing in the car market for a large family - If you have a family of six and live outside the city, you are pretty much going to own Suburbans. Because there simply is no other choice that will keep your family safe.

That being said, the most I have personally ever paid for a rig is a few thousand... Anybody that buys new is an idiot in my mind.

Now, now, people who buy new are the sainted bretheren who eventually fuel the used vehicle market.

The most i paid (after interest--it was the one loan I took out for a vehicle) was $7800.  The least, $20 (I drove that one for 2 years).

[roamer_1]

Now, now, people who buy new are the sainted bretheren who eventually fuel the used vehicle market.

Yeah, but their tastes and pansy asses have given us pickups that have butt-warmers and cup holders, but can't haul a decent load or take a beating on a rough road without the front end falling right out.

The most i paid (after interest--it was the one loan I took out for a vehicle) was $7800.  The least, $20 (I drove that one for 2 years).

Me: $3500... But that ain't fair, because I always by em broken. So I put some money into them fixin em. Shoot for my normal, I could buy one, put it back to right (and then some), jack it up on Swampers, and maybe even give it a porker for the money you are talking about... 

[rustynail]

Does it also show how we have debased our currency?

[Elderberry]

I don't think it is entirely about the money.
There is a point in this about government regulations driving the car market into the dirt.
And another point in that there is nothing in the car market for a large family - If you have a family of six and live outside the city, you are pretty much going to own Suburbans. Because there simply is no other choice that will keep your family safe.

That being said, the most I have personally ever paid for a rig is a few thousand... Anybody that buys new is an idiot in my mind.

I have only bought new twice. A 82 Chevy C10. I sold it when they were starting emissions testing. I wasn't about to put all that crap back on. It had over 300k but was still going strong. And a 2000 Expedition. I still have it. Its only just over 200k. I have a 56 Chevy 3/4 ton, a 98 Z71, and the use of my son's 07 2500HD Duramax that may be mine soon. I don't see the need of ever buying another truck.

[Smokin Joe]

Yeah, but their tastes and pansy asses have given us pickups that have butt-warmers and cup holders, but can't haul a decent load or take a beating on a rough road without the front end falling right out.

Me: $3500... But that ain't fair, because I always by em broken. So I put some money into them fixin em. Shoot for my normal, I could buy one, put it back to right (and then some), jack it up on Swampers, and maybe even give it a porker for the money you are talking about... 

Yeah, the expensive one only had two wheels...

For four wheeled ones, $3500 sounds about the tops I paid for one I could drive away (and usually across the country)--most took a little fixing and new skins in a year.

[roamer_1]

I have only bought new twice. A 82 Chevy C10. I sold it when they were starting emissions testing. I wasn't about to put all that crap back on. It had over 300k but was still going strong. And a 2000 Expedition. I still have it. Its only just over 200k. I have a 56 Chevy 3/4 ton, a 98 Z71, and the use of my son's 07 2500HD Duramax that may be mine soon. I don't see the need of ever buying another truck.

I am a tinker, so it is pretty natural for me to buy broken things and fix them...
But part of it is requirement - Straight axle, stick, and bulletproof drive train... By the time I had the money to buy new (90's), there wasn't nothing left to buy.

I keep trying, but I can't get out of the 80's, except for my 98 caravan.

I have one more truck on the docket...
Looking now to put together a 1T heavy dually dump bed.. Straight axle, 4" lift, with a nice flat-top 350, a Muncie 465 with a Rockwell drop-gear overdrive and a NP205 transfer. Dana60 front, Dana80 in back... 4:10s/4:55s... Something like that...

Probably 70's/80's, but it might be fun to take a late 90's 4dr, put a decent frame under it, turn it analog, and shove it all on there. Then I could have butt-warmers... and cup-holders, and haul some of my grandkids up fishing.

I will make one more, one more time, and won't need another.

Then I will take the one I have now, give it a porker, sky jack it, and use it to play.

[Elderberry]

My 56 has the earlier Muncie 420 and I swapped out the 14 bolt rear for a Dana 60. That 4.56 rear was too much for me. (Not as bad as the 5.38s in my Willys though) Went with a 3.56.  It still has the 235 six. My son wants a straight axle for his 07. That Allison trans he has is no slouch. The Z71 is all stock. Has around 265k and its done well.

[roamer_1]

My 56 has the earlier Muncie 420 and I swapped out the 14 bolt rear for a Dana 60. That 4.56 rear was too much for me. (Not as bad as the 5.38s in my Willys though) Went with a 3.56.  It still has the 235 six. My son wants a straight axle for his 07. That Allison trans he has is no slouch. The Z71 is all stock. Has around 265k and its done well.

Yeah- I have been inside an Allison or two... Sorry, I will stick to a stick. They almost literally never break, and when they do, it will likely be brass or a shifting fork. Same with Tcase - I am already gving some up to get into a NP205 - Bulletproof would be a Rockwell T221 Straight gear... But the 205 will do, and there ain't been a transfer case that's been made since.

[roamer_1]

@Elderberry
There's something where you can take the front of a NP203 and bolt it to the back of a 205... Called a doubler... The rock hounds around here do it...

http://www.offroaddesign.com/catalog/doubler.htm

That might be fun... And with that, a guy could come up to road gears in the diffs without sacrificing anything offroad or pulling...


I really want to try it out just to try it. :)

[Elderberry]

@Elderberry
There's something where you can take the front of a NP203 and bolt it to the back of a 205... Called a doubler... The rock hounds around here do it...

http://www.offroaddesign.com/catalog/doubler.htm

That might be fun... And with that, a guy could come up to road gears in the diffs without sacrificing anything offroad or pulling...


I really want to try it out just to try it. :)

That's interesting for sure. Reminds me of a neighbor I had back in the 70's. He was in his 80's and as a much younger man who grew up on the Mississippi. For a while, he had a contract to clear debris out of the river. He had 2 HD auto trans in his boat. They were inline with one mounted backwards so he had as many gears in reverse as forward. He could pull coming and going.

[roamer_1]

That's interesting for sure. Reminds me of a neighbor I had back in the 70's. He was in his 80's and as a much younger man who grew up on the Mississippi. For a while, he had a contract to clear debris out of the river. He had 2 HD auto trans in his boat. They were inline with one mounted backwards so he had as many gears in reverse as forward. He could pull coming and going.

Well, it's about bass ackwards from a drop gear overdrive (which is my intention)... It is basically a drop-gear reduction... That's why the rock crawlers love em... 94:1 low range plus a 4:1 reduction makes for a seriously low crawl...

But say you went with a 33/35/37" tire against, say, a 3:73 gear... That's super tall gears by the time that's done - You'd have to use low in the tranny just to get her moving... So it would sail down the highway, maybe just as good as with an OD...

But then say, you want you slip off onto the gravel or up into the woods... Just kick in the drop gear and you get a 4:1 reduction, and you are right back in the 4's somewhere...

That's nice. So you get a 2wd Hi/Lo BEFORE the transfer case... So even for backing up trailers and such, or hauling a heavy load...

I dunno. Just looks like fun.

As for the boat, yeah, that's something.  Not a boat guy myself... other than party barges, john boats and canoes/kayaks  But pulling stuff in water is a whole 'nother universe... That would be fun to figure out.

[thackney]

(Auto) AFFORDABILITY: THE NEXT FRONTIER.

Make that the past frontier:

[Jazzhead]

I think the danger lies in the substitution of lease deals for purchases.   And when those leased cars and trucks come off lease, they're on the market at a third or less of a new vehicles.

I used to buy new cars - the last time I did so was 14 years ago,  when I saw a Chrysler 300C in the color I wanted on a transport truck in the dealer's lot.  I bought it right off the truck.   Still have it, and still love it!

But every vehicle I've bought since has been an off-lease vehicle,  or even older.  Both my sister and I needed SUVs in the past year or so, and both of us did the exact same thing -  found 7-year old vehicles that stickered for over $50,000 when new for $15,000 with between 60,000 and 70,000 miles on 'em.   It no longer makes sense to buy rigs like these new.   

[Smokin Joe]

I think the danger lies in the substitution of lease deals for purchases.   And when those leased cars and trucks come off lease, they're on the market at a third or less of a new vehicles.

I used to buy new cars - the last time I did so was 14 years ago,  when I saw a Chrysler 300C in the color I wanted on a transport truck in the dealer's lot.  I bought it right off the truck.   Still have it, and still love it!

But every vehicle I've bought since has been an off-lease vehicle,  or even older.  Both my sister and I needed SUVs in the past year or so, and both of us did the exact same thing -  found 7-year old vehicles that stickered for over $50,000 when new for $15,000 with between 60,000 and 70,000 miles on 'em.   It no longer makes sense to buy rigs like these new.

Right. We shop estate sales, rental  company sales (similar to off-lease). The estate auctions can have some good vehicles cheap, with a lot of miles left on them.