Author Topic: I surrender—let the NL have the DH  (Read 729 times)

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Offline EasyAce

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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2019, 11:36:48 PM »
Pitchers need to have more "skin" in the game, make 'em bat.
Hitting .115 as a whole all year long last year didn't give pitchers more skin in the game and didn't do their teams any big favours, either.

Offline The Ghost

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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2019, 11:43:28 PM »
The DH was a gimmick of a desperate lesser league.  A Bill Veeck type stunt that still stains the game today.  Veeck would try any stunt to please the fans. On August 19, 1951 he played Eddie Gaedel, who was 3 foot 7 inches tall and had the number 1/8 on his jersey. Gaedel's strike zone was so small no pitcher could have gotten strikes against him, and the little man was guaranteed to get on base with a walk. But the League banned excessively short players right after the game.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 11:44:00 PM by The Ghost »
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Offline SZonian

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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2019, 12:33:52 AM »
Hitting .115 as a whole all year long last year didn't give pitchers more skin in the game and didn't do their teams any big favours, either.
Yeah and will give them a bit more incentive to improve.  I'm an "old school" kind of fan, if and when you step up to the plate, you'd better be ready.  The DH "steals" that.  JMHO.
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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2019, 08:30:13 AM »
Major League baseball is the only professional sport that makes half of its teams play by a different set of rules than the other half. It's a joke.

Either put the DH in both leagues or get rid of it. But enough of this half-fast nonsense, and don't give me any of that "it takes away the strategy and gamesmanship!" It's called gimmickry. I'd also ask that if you're going to start making pitchers hit, put in another rule: if you swap out a pitcher with a pinch-hitter, the pinch-hitter can't be replaced until he takes the mound and gets at least one out. So, if you have a field position player, the pinch-hitter all of a sudden is going to be a liability on the defensive end, and that chickenscratch will stop pretty darn quick.

Like it or not, the designated hitter has been part of baseball for over 40 years now, and it's high time they start implementing it on a consistent basis.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 08:35:47 AM by jmyrlefuller »

Online Bigun

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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2019, 09:12:43 AM »
Major League baseball is the only professional sport that makes half of its teams play by a different set of rules than the other half. It's a joke.

Either put the DH in both leagues or get rid of it. But enough of this half-fast nonsense, and don't give me any of that "it takes away the strategy and gamesmanship!" It's called gimmickry. I'd also ask that if you're going to start making pitchers hit, put in another rule: if you swap out a pitcher with a pinch-hitter, the pinch-hitter can't be replaced until he takes the mound and gets at least one out. So, if you have a field position player, the pinch-hitter all of a sudden is going to be a liability on the defensive end, and that chickenscratch will stop pretty darn quick.

Like it or not, the designated hitter has been part of baseball for over 40 years now, and it's high time they start implementing it on a consistent basis.

Communists have been entrenched in our government for 100 years so I guess it's time to just lay down and let them have it!

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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2019, 09:53:39 AM »
Communists have been entrenched in our government for 100 years so I guess it's time to just lay down and let them have it!
Comparing the Designated Hitter Rule to Communism... what a hot take. Now I've heard everything.

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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2019, 09:55:45 AM »
Comparing the Designated Hitter Rule to Communism... what a hot take. Now I've heard everything.

Just illustrating how F'n stupid your statement above was!  Here it is again!
Quote
...the designated hitter has been part of baseball for over 40 years now, and it's high time they start implementing it on a consistent basis.

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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2019, 10:02:26 AM »
Just illustrating how F'n stupid your statement above was!  Here it is again!
In context, Bigun...

...my point was: either put the DH in both leagues, or don't do it at all. But again, you are comparing a baseball rule that affects only a few players to Communism. Whether a pitcher is required to go to the batter's plate in a baseball game is a wee bit (sarcasm) less important than the ruthless, totalitarian micromanagement of an entire nation's economy and its people's way of life.

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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2019, 10:05:23 AM »
In context, Bigun...

...my point was: either put the DH in both leagues, or don't do it at all. But again, you are comparing a baseball rule that affects only a few players to Communism. Whether a pitcher is required to go to the batter's plate in a baseball game is a wee bit (sarcasm) less important than the ruthless, totalitarian micromanagement of an entire nation's economy and its people's way of life.


NO! Just pointing out the complete absurdity of what you said! 

« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 10:06:26 AM by Bigun »

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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2019, 10:14:21 AM »

NO! Just pointing out the complete absurdity of what you said!
This is the second time in a week you've tried to goad me into a flame war over a piece of entertainment. Get over yourself.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2019, 10:44:35 AM »
Comparing the Designated Hitter Rule to Communism... what a hot take. Now I've heard everything.

And I for one agree with the comparison.   The DH is un-American!
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Offline EasyAce

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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2019, 01:27:47 PM »
The DH and Astroturf are the devil.
I don't know if I'd go far enough as to call the DH the devil, but regarding Astroturf . . .

I don't know---I've never smoked Astroturf---Mets relief pitcher Tug McGraw.
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Offline EasyAce

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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2019, 02:07:12 PM »
And I for one agree with the comparison.   The DH is un-American!
@Jazzhead

Are you calling Connie Mack un-American, then?  wink777

It was Mack, then the owner/manager of the Philadelphia Athletics, who first proposed a designated hitter to bat in place of a pitcher in the lineup . . . in 1906, when (so the story goes) he got tired of watching pitchers like Hall of Famers Eddie Plank and Chief Bender swinging at pitches as though they had cardboard bats.

Mack's idea went nowhere until 1928---when the National League's president, John Heydler, advocated for the DH but the American League turned it down. The National League even went far enough as to try it in a few spring exhibitions that year but ultimately rejected it.

In the late 1960s---especially after the Year of the Pitcher in 1968---the designated hitter began making a few noises. Both leagues tried it in spring training 1969, in select games, but while the two major leagues decided not to stay with it at that time the AAA International League and four other minor leagues brought the DH in to stay.

That caught the attention of Oakland A's owner Charlie Finley, who thought the DH might be a way for the American League to solve two problems with a little more run production: its slightly dwindling attendance, and the fact that American League pitchers including his own for the most part couldn't hit with garage doors. In 1972, the Mustache Gang's pitching staff hit a collective .165 with a .198 on-base percentage and a .203 slugging percentage. (The only A's pitcher who could hit even a little bit, really, was Hall of Fame relief pitcher Rollie Fingers, who actually hit .312---six hits in nineteen at-bats.) The rest of the American League's pitching staffs didn't hit much differently. (The 1972 Orioles, for example, featured a pitching staff who hit a collective .155.)

Strangely enough, considering they were usually about as compatible as a cobra and a mongoose, commissioner Bowie Kuhn agreed with Finley. Kuhn agreed to let the American League try the DH in 1973. Yankee first baseman/right fielder Ron Blomberg became the first American League designated hitter to bat in a regular season game---on Opening Day 1973, Blomberg worked a full-count walk off Luis Tiant his first time at the plate. In year one of the experiment the American League collectively out-hit the National League, and it wasn't long before the AL decided to make the DH permanent and just about all the minor leagues---even teams affiliated to National League clubs---adopted it.

And, after a few years of the American League out-drawing the National League at the turnstiles, the National League got very close to adopting the DH. They had a yes-or-no vote on it in 1980. And it looked at first as though the National League would go for it---until Kuhn advised them the change wouldn't come until 1982. That's when things got interesting and dicey:

* Phillies vice president Bill Giles wasn't sure how owner Ruly Carpenter wanted him to vote, and couldn't contact Carpenter at the time of the vote because Carpenter was on a fishing trip and incommunicado.

* Pirates general manager Harding Peterson was instructed to side with the Phillies. Oops.

* The Braves, the Mets, the Cardinals, and the Padres voted for the DH.

* The Cubs, the Reds, the Dodgers, the Expos, and the Giants voted against. (Which showed how aware the Reds were of their own history: the DH made its first World Series appearance in 1976, when it was in place for both opponents, as it would stay until 1986. The Reds swept the Yankees, and one of the Reds' best hitters in that series was their first baseman Dan Driessen who'd been named the team's DH for the entire Series and, as I said in my original essay, was technically the National League's first-ever designated hitter. And having that DH sure didn't stop the Reds from sweeping the Yankees. If anything, it might have helped the Reds---on an even field, the well-experienced Big Red Machine overmatched the Yankees who'd just returned to pennant competitiveness in the past couple of years but didn't have the Reds' offensive firepower.)

* The Phillies, the Pirates, and the Astros abstained.

* The National League's most vocal supporter of the DH at the time of the vote was Cardinals general manager John Clairborne. Five days after the vote, Clairborne was canned and manager Whitey Herzog was named to be the team's general manager as well.

National League teams haven't addressed the DH since. The leagues were merged into MLB and ceased to be separately operating leagues in 2000.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 02:12:30 PM by EasyAce »

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2019, 02:17:09 PM »
Interesting history, @EasyAce .   All I can say is that, as a fan (or more specifically, a Phan),  a part of the fun of the game would be lost if the DH takes hold in the National League.   I'm in a dice baseball league (APBA),  where we draft and assemble teams,  and then play a full season of games.   The fun's in being the manager,  and playing the chess match with your opponent.   Half the fun would be gone if I didn't have to balance sustaining a rally and conserving my bullpen, and try to force my opponent into confronting the same dilemma. 


Baseball is America's game,  and it's the most fun to follow as the battle of wits unfolds.   The DH takes a way a good measure of that fun.  And for that, I say it's un-American.   
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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2019, 02:27:41 PM »
I don't like the DH rule simply because a Pitcher never has to face a 95 MPH "haircut" and is thus more likely to throw them.

That and I truly loved watching Randy Johnson at the plate...  :silly:  That stance....
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2019, 02:32:55 PM »
I don't like the DH rule simply because a Pitcher never has to face a 95 MPH "haircut" and is thus more likely to throw them.

That and I truly loved watching Randy Johnson at the plate...  :silly:  That stance....

I had Bartolo Colon on my dice league team the year Big Sexy hit first and only home run.   Sure enough,  that homer appeared on his card the following year.  Sad to say I never rolled it,  but I had fun, at the end of the year when my team was already out of it, summoning him as a pinch hitter.   
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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2019, 02:36:25 PM »
I had Bartolo Colon on my dice league team the year Big Sexy hit first and only home run.   Sure enough,  that homer appeared on his card the following year.  Sad to say I never rolled it,  but I had fun, at the end of the year when my team was already out of it, summoning him as a pinch hitter.

Johnson was the most shocked person alive when he hit that homer.  Mark Grace laughed his butt off over it for years.
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Offline The Ghost

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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2019, 02:37:22 PM »
I don't like the DH rule simply because a Pitcher never has to face a 95 MPH "haircut" and is thus more likely to throw them.

That and I truly loved watching Randy Johnson at the plate...  :silly:  That stance....

The Big Unit was good.  But the best I ever saw was Sidd Finch.
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Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2019, 02:44:42 PM »
It is here in effect, anyway.
American League has it full time when they play each other.
The National League adopts it whenever they travel to an American League ballpark.
Frankly, it did bother me at first, but doesn't so much now.
Pitchers are yanked after 80 to 100 pitches now, so in either league, they may bat 2 times max.
So, you've taken out what is in effect, about 4 at bats total, by having a DH, since you would most likely start pinch hitting by the 5th or 6th inning anyway.

Proposed rule changes, such as having a runner on base to start extra innings, outlawing defensive shifts, and forcing relievers to face a minimum of 3 batters each, bother me more than have a universal DH rule.

Offline EasyAce

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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2019, 02:59:18 PM »
Baseball is America's game,  and it's the most fun to follow as the battle of wits unfolds.   The DH takes a way a good measure of that fun.  And for that, I say it's un-American.
Jazz, I know you're smarter than that. What fun is it to see pitchers who can't even be called banjo hitters (the banjo hitters are better) trying to hit even if they might maybe pop one with the frequency of Halley's Comet appearances? Sure it was fun the day Madison Bumgarner hit those two Opening Day home runs---but that was an outlier. It was fun to see Tony Cloninger hit those two grand slams in a game in 1966---but that was an outlier. (Cloninger lifetime was a .192 hitter, in case you were wondering.)

What fun is it to see rallies killed when a number 8 hitter gets pitched around so one pitcher can strike another pitcher out or get him to whack into a harmless inning-ending ground out or double play?

What fun is it to think of what might have been when such a rally got killed instead of a DH in the lineup allowing you to maybe put a virtual extra leadoff hitter in the number 9 lineup slot and move the line up enough to put an extra potential run producer in the number 2 hole? What fun is it for a manager who has no DH available to him but has a hot hand out of the bullpen on the mound that he has to freeze too soon because his lineup spot comes up in the next inning and he can't keep that hot hand on the mound another inning or two because he had to pinch hit for him while maybe his bench isn't as solid as it should be?

The battle of wits didn't disappear with the DH. It never really will. We all thought the advent of the specialty relief pitcher would kill the battle of wits, too---but it didn't.

Want to make sure the battle of wits doesn't disappear? Start pushing for hitters to quit worrying about their launch angles and start worrying about getting the bats on the balls, period---the power hitters are still going to hit their big bombs. Start pushing for an end to the ridiculous unwritten rules and start angling for hitters to take one look at those yummy open spaces the other way when the other guys put the overshifts on and say to themselves, "I don't give two damns if your guy has a no-hitter in the making, you give me that big a spot into which to hit, you've just bought yourself a busted no-no! Even if I decide I'm going to bunt the damn ball up that open space where nobody can get the ball and I've got my team a baserunner." Start reminding hitters that Joe DiMaggio was wrong, wrong, wrong, when he refused to hit the other way to take advantage of Yankee Stadium's shorter right field by saying, "I could piss it over that wall. That's not hitting." Start reminding them that it doesn't matter how you get the ball over the fence as long as you get it there in the first place---a home run's a home run whether it's a Ruthian parabola or an Aaron high line drive.

And while you're at it, start reminding pitchers that it takes more than trying to throw a lamb chop past a wolf to pitch. (If it didn't, Steve Dalkowski would have been a Hall of Famer.) Greg Maddux didn't go to the Hall of Fame or pitch a 23-season career or nail back-to-back -2.00 ERAs by trying to throw lamb chops past wolves; his fastball probably wouldn't have broken a window, but you remember the mantra of Maddux, Tom Glavine, John Smoltz, and all those Braves pitchers during their run of dominance---location, location, location. If you've got a natural bullet fastball you don't have to throw it hard to throw it fast. (Sandy Koufax learned that one the hard way, about his fastball and that voluptuous curve ball he threw---and boom! He went from nothing special to never better and to the Hall of Fame.)

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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2019, 03:17:55 PM »
It is here in effect, anyway.
American League has it full time when they play each other.
The National League adopts it whenever they travel to an American League ballpark.
Frankly, it did bother me at first, but doesn't so much now.
Pitchers are yanked after 80 to 100 pitches now, so in either league, they may bat 2 times max.
So, you've taken out what is in effect, about 4 at bats total, by having a DH, since you would most likely start pinch hitting by the 5th or 6th inning anyway.

Proposed rule changes, such as having a runner on base to start extra innings, outlawing defensive shifts, and forcing relievers to face a minimum of 3 batters each, bother me more than have a universal DH rule.

Damned straight.  Especially the Defensive Shift BS.  @EasyAce had a whole thread (couple hundred posts, IIRC) on that one.  A solution in desperate search of a problem.  If the Manager wants to shift, let him, then throw him a blanket party after the game when the batter drives a long one the other way.

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Offline EasyAce

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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2019, 03:44:23 PM »
Damned straight.  Especially the Defensive Shift BS.  @EasyAce had a whole thread (couple hundred posts, IIRC) on that one.  A solution in desperate search of a problem.  If the Manager wants to shift, let him, then throw him a blanket party after the game when the batter drives a long one the other way.

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I wrote this last April, after Baltimore's Chance Sisco got the Twins p.o.ed after he bunted against an overshift in the ninth:

The Twins put the overshift on against Sisco and handed him the left side of the field. What did they think he was supposed to do, take it as an April Fool's Day joke and thank the nice Twins by hitting it right into their packed right side and make an out like a good boy?

Uh, no.

The Orioles happened to be in the hole 7-0, with Twins starter Jose Berrios working on a one-hitter. In fact, Sisco himself accounted for the game's only hit to that point, ripping a third-inning double. But now, gifted the entire left side of the field, Sisco did only what any batter with the proverbial two brain cells to rub together should have done — accepted the gift for what it really was, damn foolishness on the part of a club with a 7-0 lead, which is exactly what Sisco did.

Berrios recovered enough to keep the shutout even if he surrendered a walk and another hit before he finished what he started and won the game. Not that he was thrilled about it. "I don't care if he's bunting," the pitcher said after the game. "I just know it's not good for baseball in that situation. That's it."

But Dozier was more blunt and foolish. "Obviously, we're not a fan of it," he fumed. "He's a young kid. I could've said something at second base but they have tremendous veteran leadership over there." He could have said something about what's wrong with over-shifting a hitter in the ninth when you have a 7-run lead, if it's that non-competitive a moment, but they must not have tremendous veteran leadership in the Twins' clubhouse just yet.

Here's hoping that tremendous Orioles veteran leadership took the kid to one side and said, "They're stupid enough to put a shift on you when they're up, 7-0, and you don't make them pay for it, you'll be fined dinner, drinks, and carfare for the whole team when we convene the next Kangaroo Court."

In the same week, Corey Kluber of the Indians had a no-hitter in the making when the Angels batted against him in the fifth. Third baseman Jose Ramirez played way too deep for Andrelton Simmons, the Angels' hitter. And with a gift like that, Simmons thought to himself the unwritten rules be damned, we're down 2-0, we need a baserunner---and dropped a perfect bunt up the third base line, Ramirez almost predictably unable to grab it in time to throw Simmons out. The Indians screamed blue murder while forgetting it wasn't exactly the ninth inning.

And after striking out Luis Valbuena to follow up, Kluber had to handle Shohei Ohtani, the eventual American League Rookie of the Year, in a week during which Ohtani beat the A's in his first pitching start and then cranked a three-run homer the night before he faced Kluber in this spot. And this time Ohtani tied the game with a monstrous two-run homer, the game staying tied until Zack Cozart (a former Indian as it happened) hit one into the bullpens in the bottom of the thirteenth to win it for the Angels.

(I repeat: You anti-DHers, don't even think about Ohtani for your defense. The Angels didn't let him hit on the days he pitched and didn't let him pitch on the days he was in the lineup. Ohtani is very much an outlier when it comes to good pitchers also being good hitters.)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 03:44:54 PM by EasyAce »

Online dfwgator

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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2019, 03:48:08 PM »
The problem is the Players' Union will never allow the AL to do away with the DH.

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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2019, 05:12:18 PM »
The problem is the Players' Union will never allow the AL to do away with the DH.

Could have stopped right there IMHO!

Offline AllThatJazzZ

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Re: I surrender—let the NL have the DH
« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2019, 05:58:16 PM »
I prefer the DH. Putting your pitcher in the batting rotation is like putting your quarterback on defense. Since I'm brand new to MLB, I'm don't have my heels dug in regarding how things were done back when. I had no idea there was a difference between the two leagues until I saw the 'Stros play the against an NL team. I wasn't happy to see our pitchers at the plate. I don't want them spending valuable time developing hitting skills. I want them honing their pitching skills. DH throughout MLB works for me.

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