Author Topic: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy  (Read 14801 times)

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Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #75 on: January 17, 2019, 12:56:57 am »
I'm sorry @Smokin Joe but that is incorrect as well!  I do believe we revolted over a tax on Tea which is considered a food where I come from.

As to Some consumption not being optimal, that is precisely why the Fairtax would put consumers back in the driver's seat and is EXACTLY what was being discussed in the excerpt from Federalist 21 I posted!


I just wish the same understand of such things that the founders possessed were around today!  If it were, The Marxist income tax would have been history already and I could move on to something else!



And BTW: Obamacare would have been and impossible dream had the Fairtax been in place at the time!

Tax on tea was one of many things the colonists were unhappy about.

The revolt started when the crown tried to take the guns.
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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #76 on: January 17, 2019, 12:59:31 am »
Tax on tea was one of many things the colonists were unhappy about.

The revolt started when the crown tried to take the guns.

This is true!  That was the last straw and, IMHO will be again soon.
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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #77 on: January 17, 2019, 02:02:45 am »
I'm sorry @Smokin Joe but that is incorrect as well!  I do believe we revolted over a tax on Tea which is considered a food where I come from.

As to Some consumption not being optimal, that is precisely why the Fairtax would put consumers back in the driver's seat and is EXACTLY what was being discussed in the excerpt from Federalist 21 I posted!


I just wish the same understand of such things that the founders possessed were around today!  If it were, The Marxist income tax would have been history already and I could move on to something else!



And BTW: Obamacare would have been and impossible dream had the Fairtax been in place at the time!
THe Marxist Income tax would never have happened, nor most of the programs it supports.

However, Tea (imported) was subject to duties as an import. People drank all sorts of things, and still do, and call them tea. However, the stimulant beverage was a mainstay (and still is) among the English, among other peoples worldwide. Americans, in response to that tax (and out of rebellion) became coffee drinkers (my drug of choice). Other items taxed included paper, and virtually anything imported--which became a bone of contention over tariffs 80 years later to the point that helped ignite another war. However, the Congress had the Constitutional authority to levy tariffs.
Study the history of our marxist income tax, and you will find that initially, it was a tax on profit from investments, not common labor. It was the jump in reasoning which led to the exchange  of time and skill for something more readily traded for other things or those things themselves being defined as "income". If I trade you a five dollar bill for five ones, is that taxable (generally, no, because we have only exchanged items of equal value. If you trade me a weaner pig for doing a valve job on your pickup, is that income? According to the Government, it is! Even though we mutually set the value of those things as equal and made an exchange. Ther's the rub--wages were not 'income'--yet today, in order to inadequately finance growing socialist programs and control the masses, such exchanges ("barter") are considered "income".

Tea, while nice, was not a necessity, despite being a drink heavily entrenched in English tradition. And the total tax levied was small--far smaller than most states' sales taxes today (if the state has a sales tax).

I;m not against the consumption tax model, but I do have issues with "prebates" because that is a decision to refund the taxes on something that may well be a necessity, something not all NEED in equal measure, and something people cannot live without (like heat in North Dakota in Winter). "Prebating" a portion of the taxes levied on heat is to decide that the surplus taxed is somehow not a necessity, when in fact it is, based on some formula that some bureaucrat concots.   That is the government deciding how much you need, arbitrarily, and only refunding the tax on that fraction they consider essential.

That requires studies, bureaucracy, just to set the prebates which should vary from year to year depending on temperature. which would require more study, and if the people doing the studies are using AGW doctrine to predict the future, the gap between real needs and refunded taxes will increase, while those in more tropical latitudes are allotted more prebate for cooling. Heat kills, sure, but cold will get you quicker. I knew a couple of people who froze to death, one right in town.

Now, there is a way around all that. To reduce the allotment bureaucracy to a mere sliver of itself, and that is to not tax the broadly defined categories of food, clothing, shelter (one domicile), medical care, and energy, things which universally are understood as necessities, whether energy be defined locally as electricity from nuclear power or a dung fire.

That permits the person in Minnesota with Reynaud's Syndrome to heat their house adequately, the person in Corpus Christi to run the AC, without fear of going over their limit and having to pay taxes on it. People can eat what and as much as they see fit. They can see the doctor and not have to pay 30% tax on their chemo drugs or Cardiac Cath. They can live in as nice a house as they can afford, (not 30% less), and buy or sell that primary house without fear of losing 30% every time. They can wear clothing adequate to their climate, whether that be for subzero weather or a sunny day at the beach, again without being penalized for the needs imposed locally. ANd there is a bonus.

Any time the government issues payments, there are things to keep track of. Who died, who moved,who never existed. There will be those who are intent of defrauding that payment system, those who won't get their payment because someone typed in the wrong number or address. That takes an army of people to sort out, facilities and equipment to do so.

You an vastly reduce those needs by not collecting that tax on things which fall into the categories above. In fact, what you would need is only a smaller group to decide what does and doesn't fit under those headings and levy the taxes accordingly.

People would keep more of what they make, would not be taxed on the basics needed to live and stay alive, and the other items, the durable goods, the televisions, the appliances, automobiles, the hangers in the walk-in closet (or the ikea dresser) would be taxed. If someone wanted to scrounge pallet lumber and make furniture rather than have a house full of valuable antiques, that would be up to them.

My biggest problems with consumption taxes are that:

 1 Some people will need more than others, simply to live. If the necessities aren't taxed,then the tax is more fair, and more of a tax on egregious and optional consumption instead of a tax on living (my biggest objection to the ACA, too).

2 Prebates will mean the government has to assign a level of sustenance expenditures to refund the tax on. In essence, this is the government telling us what we need to live, without any regard for the needs of the individual--an arbitrary and possibly capricious number. With the government's track record for getting things right, someone is going to get seriously screwed, and others will benefit. The government will pick winners and losers based on nutritional requirements, location (weather), and body size, as well as caloric output during the average day. (Workouts are optional, work is not. A large man who does heavy manual labor will need as much as three times the caloric input as someone who weighs 100 lbs soaking wet and has an office job. Yet the large guy who sweats for his money will pay three times the tax, just to fuel his efforts. Food, clothing, shelter (primary residence), medicine, energy, all vary wildly depending on the needs of the individual. They aren't, at some point, optional. Don't tax them.

3 Prebates also mean the government will have to have an administrative bureaucracy with armies of employees to administer, monitor for fraud, change addresses, keep the systems running, issue the payments, etc. Doing away with the prebate does away with that need. Only the enforcement division need remain, and those who count the money coming in.

So, I'm not against the consumption tax, written carefully, but I am against the prebate scheme.

Having everyone on a  hunt for their government check is not the answer to being more free.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #78 on: January 17, 2019, 03:32:35 am »
THe Marxist Income tax would never have happened, nor most of the programs it supports.

However, Tea (imported) was subject to duties as an import. People drank all sorts of things, and still do, and call them tea. However, the stimulant beverage was a mainstay (and still is) among the English, among other peoples worldwide. Americans, in response to that tax (and out of rebellion) became coffee drinkers (my drug of choice). Other items taxed included paper, and virtually anything imported--which became a bone of contention over tariffs 80 years later to the point that helped ignite another war. However, the Congress had the Constitutional authority to levy tariffs.
Study the history of our marxist income tax, and you will find that initially, it was a tax on profit from investments, not common labor. It was the jump in reasoning which led to the exchange  of time and skill for something more readily traded for other things or those things themselves being defined as "income". If I trade you a five dollar bill for five ones, is that taxable (generally, no, because we have only exchanged items of equal value. If you trade me a weaner pig for doing a valve job on your pickup, is that income? According to the Government, it is! Even though we mutually set the value of those things as equal and made an exchange. Ther's the rub--wages were not 'income'--yet today, in order to inadequately finance growing socialist programs and control the masses, such exchanges ("barter") are considered "income".

Tea, while nice, was not a necessity, despite being a drink heavily entrenched in English tradition. And the total tax levied was small--far smaller than most states' sales taxes today (if the state has a sales tax).

I;m not against the consumption tax model, but I do have issues with "prebates" because that is a decision to refund the taxes on something that may well be a necessity, something not all NEED in equal measure, and something people cannot live without (like heat in North Dakota in Winter). "Prebating" a portion of the taxes levied on heat is to decide that the surplus taxed is somehow not a necessity, when in fact it is, based on some formula that some bureaucrat concots.   That is the government deciding how much you need, arbitrarily, and only refunding the tax on that fraction they consider essential.

That requires studies, bureaucracy, just to set the prebates which should vary from year to year depending on temperature. which would require more study, and if the people doing the studies are using AGW doctrine to predict the future, the gap between real needs and refunded taxes will increase, while those in more tropical latitudes are allotted more prebate for cooling. Heat kills, sure, but cold will get you quicker. I knew a couple of people who froze to death, one right in town.

Now, there is a way around all that. To reduce the allotment bureaucracy to a mere sliver of itself, and that is to not tax the broadly defined categories of food, clothing, shelter (one domicile), medical care, and energy, things which universally are understood as necessities, whether energy be defined locally as electricity from nuclear power or a dung fire.

That permits the person in Minnesota with Reynaud's Syndrome to heat their house adequately, the person in Corpus Christi to run the AC, without fear of going over their limit and having to pay taxes on it. People can eat what and as much as they see fit. They can see the doctor and not have to pay 30% tax on their chemo drugs or Cardiac Cath. They can live in as nice a house as they can afford, (not 30% less), and buy or sell that primary house without fear of losing 30% every time. They can wear clothing adequate to their climate, whether that be for subzero weather or a sunny day at the beach, again without being penalized for the needs imposed locally. ANd there is a bonus.

Any time the government issues payments, there are things to keep track of. Who died, who moved,who never existed. There will be those who are intent of defrauding that payment system, those who won't get their payment because someone typed in the wrong number or address. That takes an army of people to sort out, facilities and equipment to do so.

You an vastly reduce those needs by not collecting that tax on things which fall into the categories above. In fact, what you would need is only a smaller group to decide what does and doesn't fit under those headings and levy the taxes accordingly.

People would keep more of what they make, would not be taxed on the basics needed to live and stay alive, and the other items, the durable goods, the televisions, the appliances, automobiles, the hangers in the walk-in closet (or the ikea dresser) would be taxed. If someone wanted to scrounge pallet lumber and make furniture rather than have a house full of valuable antiques, that would be up to them.

My biggest problems with consumption taxes are that:

 1 Some people will need more than others, simply to live. If the necessities aren't taxed,then the tax is more fair, and more of a tax on egregious and optional consumption instead of a tax on living (my biggest objection to the ACA, too).

2 Prebates will mean the government has to assign a level of sustenance expenditures to refund the tax on. In essence, this is the government telling us what we need to live, without any regard for the needs of the individual--an arbitrary and possibly capricious number. With the government's track record for getting things right, someone is going to get seriously screwed, and others will benefit. The government will pick winners and losers based on nutritional requirements, location (weather), and body size, as well as caloric output during the average day. (Workouts are optional, work is not. A large man who does heavy manual labor will need as much as three times the caloric input as someone who weighs 100 lbs soaking wet and has an office job. Yet the large guy who sweats for his money will pay three times the tax, just to fuel his efforts. Food, clothing, shelter (primary residence), medicine, energy, all vary wildly depending on the needs of the individual. They aren't, at some point, optional. Don't tax them.

3 Prebates also mean the government will have to have an administrative bureaucracy with armies of employees to administer, monitor for fraud, change addresses, keep the systems running, issue the payments, etc. Doing away with the prebate does away with that need. Only the enforcement division need remain, and those who count the money coming in.

So, I'm not against the consumption tax, written carefully, but I am against the prebate scheme.

Having everyone on a  hunt for their government check is not the answer to being more free.

Mostly wroong across the board but I'll take it up tomorrow.

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #79 on: January 17, 2019, 03:42:20 am »
I had to go visit with the neurosurgeon who performed my surgery today so I'm late getting to this @jmyrlefuller but would you mind explaining to me just how allowing you to keep your entire paycheck (zero federal deductions period) favors the rich over the poor?
Because 40 percent of Americans pay no income tax at all. And how are you going to pay Socialist Security if you're eliminating FICA? Payouts are based on what they put in. So, if we stop tracking what goes in, how do we know what to give out? We don't.

Then perhaps you can tell me how being able to earn all you want to earn, from any source you want, without having to think about taxes, even for a second, favors the rich over the poor. 
That's not an argument, that's a sales pitch.

The poor do not have enough money to make substantial income from investment. At a generous 7% APR, one would need to have a seed of $300,000 invested to have even a meager $21,000 a year from investment, a level of savings it would take the typical working-class person in this country decades to achieve. Yet someone who is already wealthy can make that kind of money doing nothing.

Someone without those kinds of resources has to rely on unskilled labor (easy to find but is woefully inefficient), skilled labor (not always accessible) or luck (e.g. winning the lottery). And when you have less income to work with... then we get back to my original point.

Then maybe you can explain how the federal government not knowing how much, or from what sources, you derive your income favors the rich over the poor.  And then you can tell me how protecting you from paying ANY taxes what so ever up to whatever the DHS says the poverty level is favors the rich over the poor.
That is not even remotely feasible. To do that, you'd have to 1) centralize a person's entire spending system into one, centralized government-monitored account (bye bye cash), then 2) track each account's every expenditure, PLUS 3) monitor whether each person is married, cohabiting, having children the same way the welfare system does now, because poverty is defined differently in each case.

Of course the FairTax doesn't propose anything of the sort. They propose universal basic income. They call it a prebate, but it's the same thing. You want to tax everything, then let the government hand you a free paycheck to compensate for the taxes they want to take from you.

After you get done with that, you might tell me how wringing out ALL of the taxes and compliance costs currently hidden in the prices of every thin produced in this country favors the rich over the poor.
Again, corporate taxes and personal income taxes are two totally different sections of the tax code. What they pay is already nowhere near what an individual making the same amount of money pays. The rates are lower and the deductions are a lot higher.

I have MANY more such question should you be willing to answer them.
Don't waste your time.

And BTW:  Herman Cain is a HUGE proponent of the Fairtax!
Which even he knew was not workable in the short term, hence why he promoted 9-9-9 instead. The only reason he claims to be is because he got his job from Neal Boortz, the primary charlatan behind this scheme, and got commissions from every book sold.
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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #80 on: January 17, 2019, 04:03:30 am »
Mostly wroong across the board but I'll take it up tomorrow.
Good. you'll have plenty of time to come up with something more believable than just saying "Wroong."

Make your case, support it in your own words, right here.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #81 on: January 17, 2019, 04:33:36 am »
Good. you'll have plenty of time to come up with something more believable than just saying "Wroong."

Make your case, support it in your own words, right here.

If I'm still breathing you can count on me doing EXACTLY that!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #82 on: January 17, 2019, 05:07:33 am »
If I'm still breathing you can count on me doing EXACTLY that!
Good. I'm looking forward to you being able to disabuse me of what I have said, with rational and reasonable argument, and not jingoism. We agree on many things, but in no wise does the prebate make sense to me, except as a sales gimmick to have stupid and greedy people looking forward to a check in the proverbial mailbox. They do that already, once a year, getting back a fraction of the money they let the government have for a year for free (a no interest loan), and act like the Government 'gave' them money when it just gave them their own money back. :shrug:

I'm also waiting for you to tell me how this will function without a whole 'nother bureaucracy. (Another government agency). How that will be more efficient than any other government agency in history.

And how the amount of prebate will be set, considering most Americans live well south of this latitude, in a way that will be fair to those who cannot live without heating their homes.

How that prebate will be figured,and how that isn't government telling us what we need and don't. (like the ACA).

See ya tomorrow. :seeya:
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #83 on: January 17, 2019, 03:36:55 pm »
THe Marxist Income tax would never have happened, nor most of the programs it supports.


My biggest problems with consumption taxes are that:

 1 Some people will need more than others, simply to live. If the necessities aren't taxed,then the tax is more fair, and more of a tax on egregious and optional consumption instead of a tax on living (my biggest objection to the ACA, too).

Are your necessities the same as mine @Smokin Joe?  Do you REALLY want some government beauracrat deciding what a "necessity" is and getting rich in the process due to K Street bastards being MORE than willing to compensate him handsomely in order to get THEIR pet good or service deemed a "necessity" just as they currently do defining the word "income" in the tax code!  The ACA could NEVER have happened with the Fairtax in place as the law of the land!

Quote

2 Prebates will mean the government has to assign a level of sustenance expenditures to refund the tax on. In essence, this is the government telling us what we need to live, without any regard for the needs of the individual--an arbitrary and possibly capricious number. With the government's track record for getting things right, someone is going to get seriously screwed, and others will benefit. The government will pick winners and losers based on nutritional requirements, location (weather), and body size, as well as caloric output during the average day. (Workouts are optional, work is not. A large man who does heavy manual labor will need as much as three times the caloric input as someone who weighs 100 lbs soaking wet and has an office job. Yet the large guy who sweats for his money will pay three times the tax, just to fuel his efforts. Food, clothing, shelter (primary residence), medicine, energy, all vary wildly depending on the needs of the individual. They aren't, at some point, optional. Don't tax them.

I follow what you are saying and don't particularly like the prebate feature either. I would be just as happy without it in the bill and tried to get it outl but was told no dice!  The prebate is what makes the fairtax "progressive" and it hs zero chance of seeing the light of day in today's Washington without it.  Doesn't matter now either way with the Democrats running the House.

Let's look at some things here and use Jim, Joe, Jack, and Juan as models.  The Health and Human Services department says that earnings up to $20K is poverty level.

Jim is a clerk at the local Grocery store and earns $20K. Joe is an engineer making $200K.  Jack dropped out of school in the 8th grade and has no visible means of support and "survives" by selling drugs to your kids down by the Jr. HS.  Juan is in the country illegally and works at whatever he can find that will pay him in cash under the table.

Under the current system:

Jim pays $0.00 income tax but gets hit on every dollar of his $20K for with FICA and Medicare deductions amounting to 7.65% off the top of his $20K before he sees a dime leaving him with $18,470 from which he must purchase everything he needs to get by.  In truth, he really pays his employers 7.65% share as well because his employer is compelled to consider that a part of his wage and benefit package.

Joe is in the 28% income tax bracket and has the same 7.65% deducted from his pay before he sees a single dime to do his personal business leaving him with 128,700 after his Uncle Sam gets done with him. 

Jack took in $300K, paid not one dime of tax, and get's every form of public assistance payment known to man! 

Juan also pays nothing and gets all manner of public support payments.

Under the Fairtax without the prebate feature:

Jim, Joe, Jack and Juan all pay the same 17% (What the Sales tax rate would be without the prebate feature) on every purchase they make.

Jim spends his entire $20K just making ends meet and pays $3400 in taxes to his Uncle for the privilege of living in the good ole USA!  Joe is a frugal man and manages to spend the same $20K on his necessities of life leaving him $180K to invest, or just save for a rainy day.

Jack and Juan are crying like babies because, for the first time ever, the tax man hits them HARD like he does everyone else including Mr. Billionaire who lives large and paid next to nothing under the income tax because most of his revenue did not meet the definition of "Income" under that code.

Under the Fairtax WITH the prebate feature:

Jim and Joe pay $0.00 in taxes while Jack and Juan get hit with the full $.23 of every dollar they spend going to uncle sugar!   If Joe decided to live twice as well and spent $40K he would wind up having paid his uncle 11.5 cents of every dollar to his uncle.

Jack pays on every dollar he spends after the first 20K and Juan gets hit for the full $.23 on every single dollar he spends because he is not eligible for the prebate.

Quote
3 Prebates also mean the government will have to have an administrative bureaucracy with armies of employees to administer, monitor for fraud, change addresses, keep the systems running, issue the payments, etc. Doing away with the prebate does away with that need. Only the enforcement division need remain, and those who count the money coming in.


They already do!  It's call the Social Security Administration and that's who would handle it under the fairtax.

Quote
So, I'm not against the consumption tax, written carefully, but I am against the prebate scheme.

Having everyone on a  hunt for their government check is not the answer to being more free.

As I said earlier, I don't much care for it either but the SAD fact is it HAS to be there to make it remotely palatable to the income redistribution artists in Washington these days!  God forbid we all just paid the same flat rate without the gooberment knowing a single thing about how much or from what source(s) we derive our income!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline thackney

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #84 on: January 17, 2019, 03:40:31 pm »
The prebate alone is reason not to accept this system.

The government knowingly overtaxes and then decides how much to give back.  And then it will be to who...
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #85 on: January 17, 2019, 03:55:01 pm »
I would argue that high tax rates do work in today's economy since the effect of taxes is to inhibit growth.  Subsidize something, you get more of it.  Tax something, you get less of it.  And it still holds true that high tax rates are spectacularly successful at destroying economic growth.
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #86 on: January 17, 2019, 04:01:29 pm »
The prebate alone is reason not to accept this system.

The government knowingly overtaxes and then decides how much to give back.  And then it will be to who...

So, don't just reject it out of hand; propose something else, and/or identify parts that need to be changed.  To simply reject it has the effect of supporting the current system.

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #87 on: January 17, 2019, 04:05:45 pm »
So, don't just reject it out of hand; propose something else, and/or identify parts that need to be changed.  To simply reject it has the effect of supporting the current system.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Sanguine

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #88 on: January 17, 2019, 04:11:53 pm »

Online Bigun

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #89 on: January 17, 2019, 04:38:13 pm »
Quote from: Bigun on January 16, 2019, 08:17:34 PM
I had to go visit with the neurosurgeon who performed my surgery today so I'm late getting to this @jmyrlefuller but would you mind explaining to me just how allowing you to keep your entire paycheck (zero federal deductions period) favors the rich over the poor?

@jmyrlefuller responds:

Because 40 percent of Americans pay no income tax at all. And how are you going to pay Socialist Security if you're eliminating FICA? Payouts are based on what they put in. So, if we stop tracking what goes in, how do we know what to give out? We don't.

Bigun responds:

40% don't pay any INCOME tax but, if they have a job, they pay 7.65% on the very first dollar they earn, and every single dollar they earn afterward! (In reality, they pay the full 15.3%) 

Employers would report your WAGES the Social Security Administration to allow for benefit determinations.

Quote from: Bigun on January 16, 2019, 08:17:34 PM
Then perhaps you can tell me how being able to earn all you want to earn, from any source you want, without having to think about taxes, even for a second, favors the rich over the poor.

jmyrlefuller responds:

That's not an argument, that's a sales pitch.

The poor do not have enough money to make substantial income from investment. At a generous 7% APR, one would need to have a seed of $300,000 invested to have even a meager $21,000 a year from investment, a level of savings it would take the typical working-class person in this country decades to achieve. Yet someone who is already wealthy can make that kind of money doing nothing.

Someone without those kinds of resources has to rely on unskilled labor (easy to find but is woefully inefficient), skilled labor (not always accessible) or luck (e.g. winning the lottery). And when you have less income to work with... then we get back to my original point.

Of course the FairTax doesn't propose anything of the sort. They propose universal basic income. They call it a prebate, but it's the same thing. You want to tax everything, then let the government hand you a free paycheck to compensate for the taxes they want to take from you.
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Bigun responds:

No, it's not!  It an absolutely TRUE statement of FACT!   WHY on earth do you think you should be limited in your earnings? 

You are right to say that the rich can take in tons to money under the current system while paying little to no INCOME tax!  They pay their K Street people handsomely to ensure that remains so.  They would, however, pay through the nose for their extravagant lifestyles with the sales tax in place!

The prebate is just what it says it is!  A rebate of taxes paid up up front!


Quote from: Bigun on January 16, 2019, 08:17:34 PM
Then maybe you can explain how the federal government not knowing how much, or from what sources, you derive your income favors the rich over the poor.  And then you can tell me how protecting you from paying ANY taxes what so ever up to whatever the DHS says the poverty level is favors the rich over the poor.

jmyrlefuller responds:


That is not even remotely feasible. To do that, you'd have to 1) centralize a person's entire spending system into one, centralized government-monitored account (bye bye cash), then 2) track each account's every expenditure, PLUS 3) monitor whether each person is married, cohabiting, having children the same way the welfare system does now, because poverty is defined differently in each case.

Bigun Responds:

Absolute BS!  Under the Fairtax, the States would do the tax collecting and be compensated for doing so as would every single merchant. 45 of them already have those mechanisms in place and those that don't can easily implement them!  In addation, those states that currently have sales taxes could conform their states base to the Fairtax base and lower the state rate substantially while taking in the same revenue. Under the fairtax the State wouldn't have to know even so much as your name! Receiving the prebate is NOT mandatory!

Quote from: Bigun on January 16, 2019, 08:17:34 PM
After you get done with that, you might tell me how wringing out ALL of the taxes and compliance costs currently hidden in the prices of every thin produced in this country favors the rich over the poor.

jmyrlefuller responds:

Again, corporate taxes and personal income taxes are two totally different sections of the tax code. What they pay is already nowhere near what an individual making the same amount of money pays. The rates are lower and the deductions are a lot higher.


Bigun responds:

Yes! The corporate Income tax is indeed a separate section of the tax code but beyond that, you simply have NO idea as to what you are talking about!

The Corporate income tax is a functionally a VAT and every person in this country pays it along with all of the costs of compliance whether or not they understand that they are doing so!  It is a MAJOR reason why most of the jobs that were once here no longer are. And every one of those jobs would come back virtually overnight IF we created an environment where anyone could open or expand a business without having to give even one second's worth of consideration to the tax implications of doing so!

Quote from: Bigun on January 16, 2019, 08:17:34 PM
I have MANY more such question should you be willing to answer them.

jmyrlefuller responds:

Don't waste your time.

Bigun responds:

OK!  Your wish is my command!  You can reamin as ignorant as you want for as long as you want!


Quote from: Bigun on January 16, 2019, 08:17:34 PM

And BTW:  Herman Cain is a HUGE proponent of the Fairtax!


jmyrlefuller responds:

Which even he knew was not workable in the short term, hence why he promoted 9-9-9 instead. The only reason he claims to be is because he got his job from Neal Boortz, the primary charlatan behind this scheme, and got commissions from every book sold.

MORE bovine fecal matter!  9-9-9 was supposed to be the short term bridge to the fairtax!  It just so happens that I am acquainted with the economist who wrote it if you would like to hear it from him instead of me I can probably arrange that!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #90 on: January 17, 2019, 05:04:59 pm »
I would argue that high tax rates do work in today's economy since the effect of taxes is to inhibit growth.  Subsidize something, you get more of it.  Tax something, you get less of it.  And it still holds true that high tax rates are spectacularly successful at destroying economic growth.

@Hoodat

Indeed!  And that is especially true of taxes that are hidden in prices and put every single good or service produced in that economy at a competitive disadvantage in the marketplace.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Hoodat

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #91 on: January 17, 2019, 05:27:54 pm »
The poor do not have enough money to make substantial income from investment. At a generous 7% APR, one would need to have a seed of $300,000 invested to have even a meager $21,000 a year from investment, a level of savings it would take the typical working-class person in this country decades to achieve.

Putting away $21/wk every week from age 20 to age 65 would yield just over $300,000 at age 65, which would yield a retirement income 39% higher than minimum wage.  This is pretty stout considering that a minimum wage worker working full time already gives up $37 in Social Security taxes.  If that $37 was invested instead at the above rate, that minimum wage worker would have over half a million dollars when they turn 65, yielding a retirement income of $37K - 2½ times greater than their minimum wage income.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Online Bigun

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #92 on: January 17, 2019, 05:33:47 pm »
@jmyrlefuller

One more little thing before I go.

EVERYONE I know does their taxes, Takes a look at the bottom line, and says something like this "I made 100K last year and the Government took $23K of it (23%)!  That is the tax expressed as a tax inclusive rate.

I don't know anyone who says  " I made $100K last year, the gooberment took $23K of it leaving me with only $77K. WOW! $23K is 30% of $77K(the tax exclusive rate) but if you want to be the only guy in America that does that be my guest!  The gooberment still got $23K either way.

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline thackney

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #93 on: January 17, 2019, 05:36:20 pm »
So, don't just reject it out of hand; propose something else, and/or identify parts that need to be changed.  To simply reject it has the effect of supporting the current system.

If the option is a consumption tax with a prebate, then I support the current system.
Life is fragile, handle with prayer

Online Bigun

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #94 on: January 17, 2019, 05:37:28 pm »
Putting away $21/wk every week from age 20 to age 65 would yield just over $300,000 at age 65, which would yield a retirement income 39% higher than minimum wage.  This is pretty stout considering that a minimum wage worker working full time already gives up $37 in Social Security taxes.  If that $37 was invested instead at the above rate, that minimum wage worker would have over half a million dollars when they turn 65, yielding a retirement income of $37K - 2½ times greater than their minimum wage income.

Absolutely right!  100%  888high58888
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #95 on: January 17, 2019, 05:40:20 pm »
If the option is a consumption tax with a prebate, then I support the current system.

That fine! You are perfectly entitled to do that but I'll tell you this, you will never again be a TRULY free man for so long as the Marxist income tax and the IRS remain in existence.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Hoodat

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #96 on: January 17, 2019, 05:41:34 pm »
I don't know anyone who says  " I made $100K last year, the gooberment took $23K of it leaving me with only $77K. WOW!

I have actually had liberals tell me that all of your income belongs to the government and out of their paternal generosity, they let you have some of it.  They justify this by saying that you wouldn't have the ability to earn anything without the government.  Dead serious.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Online Bigun

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #97 on: January 17, 2019, 05:45:57 pm »
I have actually had liberals tell me that all of your income belongs to the government and out of their paternal generosity, they let you have some of it.  They justify this by saying that you wouldn't have the ability to earn anything without the government.  Dead serious.

@Hoodat

Unfortunately, under the Marxist income tax system that would be a true statement. There is nothing in the law that limits how much they can take if they want to.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline thackney

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #98 on: January 17, 2019, 06:06:18 pm »
That fine! You are perfectly entitled to do that but I'll tell you this, you will never again be a TRULY free man for so long as the Marxist income tax and the IRS remain in existence.

Yes, nothing says "free" like paying 30% tax on food and basic necessities for your entire life.  And waiting for your government check to coming in...
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Offline aligncare

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #99 on: January 17, 2019, 06:07:57 pm »
That fine! You are perfectly entitled to do that but I'll tell you this, you will never again be a TRULY free man for so long as the Marxist income tax and the IRS remain in existence.

You are exactly correct @Bigun This morning I heard Stephen Moore (co-author “Trumponomics: Inside the America First Plan to Revive Our Economy," with Art Laffer and Larry Kudlow) say to Mark Simone that the income tax was the worst mistake lawmakers ever made.

No doubt the legislation changed society for the worse.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 06:09:50 pm by aligncare »