Author Topic: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy  (Read 14510 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,297
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2019, 08:53:34 pm »
Don't tax the basic necessities: Food (Whatever you eat, no tax), Shelter (just one home to live in--you want ten, pay the tax on the other nine, You want a huge house, fine, no tax---even a really big house is going to be filled with taxable stuff), Medical care, clothing (because they won't let you run around naked, and you'd freeze to death without it here), and the energy to heat/cool your home.
Whether you use more or less of those, is up to you, but it isn't taxed. and no army of gubmint employees to determine how much you get prebated on however much they think you need.

I am inclined the same way - I think one's primary property should not be taxed, and should be able to be moved... IOW, that first property you own, and then sell to buy another, and all the way onward till death, that chain of residence should not be taxed in any way, and should be wholly inheritable likewise.

Reasonable levels of food and clothing also should not be taxed - what it takes to live in moderate quality should be considered as subsistence. That should not extend to 1500 dollar shoes or kobe beef - I don't know where that line is exactly, but you get what I am saying here, no doubt. Roughly, what you can buy from the Safeway or Wally World, or Kmart in the way of clothing and food should just be 'means of living' and withheld from the taxable structure... That, I think would be controlled at the point of retail sale. 

Medical should never be taxed - from Bandaids and Bactine on up. To include services of hospitals and doctors.

What it takes for a man and his family to 'be' should be out of the loop.

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,331
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #51 on: January 15, 2019, 09:02:42 pm »
I am inclined the same way - I think one's primary property should not be taxed, and should be able to be moved... IOW, that first property you own, and then sell to buy another, and all the way onward till death, that chain of residence should not be taxed in any way, and should be wholly inheritable likewise.

Reasonable levels of food and clothing also should not be taxed - what it takes to live in moderate quality should be considered as subsistence. That should not extend to 1500 dollar shoes or kobe beef - I don't know where that line is exactly, but you get what I am saying here, no doubt. Roughly, what you can buy from the Safeway or Wally World, or Kmart in the way of clothing and food should just be 'means of living' and withheld from the taxable structure... That, I think would be controlled at the point of retail sale. 

Medical should never be taxed - from Bandaids and Bactine on up. To include services of hospitals and doctors.

What it takes for a man and his family to 'be' should be out of the loop.

The instant you put a single exemption in the law you open the door for the K Street bastards to return to Washington @roamer_1 !  IMHO it is MUCH better to let YOU decide what YOUR necessities are!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,402
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #52 on: January 15, 2019, 09:14:23 pm »
I am inclined the same way - I think one's primary property should not be taxed, and should be able to be moved... IOW, that first property you own, and then sell to buy another, and all the way onward till death, that chain of residence should not be taxed in any way, and should be wholly inheritable likewise.

Reasonable levels of food and clothing also should not be taxed - what it takes to live in moderate quality should be considered as subsistence. That should not extend to 1500 dollar shoes or kobe beef - I don't know where that line is exactly, but you get what I am saying here, no doubt. Roughly, what you can buy from the Safeway or Wally World, or Kmart in the way of clothing and food should just be 'means of living' and withheld from the taxable structure... That, I think would be controlled at the point of retail sale. 

Medical should never be taxed - from Bandaids and Bactine on up. To include services of hospitals and doctors.

What it takes for a man and his family to 'be' should be out of the loop.
It is the same fundamental objection I had to Obamacare (and the tax/penalty) for simply being alive.
As to Kobe beef and 1500 dollar shoes, who decides what is 'luxury' and what is 'necessity'? If you sell yachts, you aren't going to show up in cheap walmart sneakers. (The boat gets taxed). In the end, an ostentatious lifestyle will have plenty to tax, without taxing what ultimately becomes poo. Let 'em eat cake, chances are it won't be off a paper plate. (which would be taxed, too).

When we start talking sliding scales, it is only a question of when the scale slides down. that's what happened with the income tax, and then the wealthy and connected wrote in loopholes. So, don't invite any corruption in that sense, just don't tax it. In the big picture, the amount of Kobe beef and pairs of 1500 dollar shoes will be minor, anyway.  Most people will be eating hamburger and wearing much cheaper shoes.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,402
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #53 on: January 15, 2019, 09:21:56 pm »
The instant you put a single exemption in the law you open the door for the K Street bastards to return to Washington @roamer_1 !  IMHO it is MUCH better to let YOU decide what YOUR necessities are!
That's why I like clearly defined exemptions form the tax, regardless of what in those classes would be considered exorbitant. Beluga caviar and chicken eggs would be taxed the same--zero, they are both food. Make exceptions to tax something, and that bar will move.

Lest we forget, originally, the books were balanced (admittedly for a much more Constitutionally constrained government) with tariffs on what amounted to be luxury goods from overseas. So worrying about how money is raised is only half of the equation.
On this we may have our disagreements, but we both want to free the exchange of labor for goods or media of exchange from the notion that it is "income" and taxable. It is a value for value trade. Similarly, the government regards barter exchanges as taxable income, If I give you a dozen eggs for some tomatoes, it isn't income, it's a trade. Otherwise, If I give you ten ones and you give me a ten dollar bill, that'd be "income".
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,297
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #54 on: January 15, 2019, 09:34:39 pm »
It is the same fundamental objection I had to Obamacare (and the tax/penalty) for simply being alive.
As to Kobe beef and 1500 dollar shoes, who decides what is 'luxury' and what is 'necessity'? If you sell yachts, you aren't going to show up in cheap walmart sneakers. (The boat gets taxed). In the end, an ostentatious lifestyle will have plenty to tax, without taxing what ultimately becomes poo. Let 'em eat cake, chances are it won't be off a paper plate. (which would be taxed, too).

When we start talking sliding scales, it is only a question of when the scale slides down. that's what happened with the income tax, and then the wealthy and connected wrote in loopholes. So, don't invite any corruption in that sense, just don't tax it. In the big picture, the amount of Kobe beef and pairs of 1500 dollar shoes will be minor, anyway.  Most people will be eating hamburger and wearing much cheaper shoes.

@Smokin Joe
@Bigun

We ain't afar off on all this... And I do not see a sliding scale, I see a bottom somewhere, and only on the things it takes to subsist (to include the homestead).

But I DO see your point, the both of you, that putting a scale on things invites abuse from K street and DC... I get it. A 'no wiggle room', retail only, flat tax may be the only way to bolt em down and nail the coffin shut. I get it.

Offline Sanguine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,986
  • Gender: Female
  • Ex-member
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #55 on: January 15, 2019, 09:36:11 pm »
One of the valuable points to a consumption tax would be to NOT tax labor.  I don't think the feds should even know how much money I bring in.  Why should they know that?

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,331
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #56 on: January 15, 2019, 09:38:54 pm »
One of the valuable points to a consumption tax would be to NOT tax labor.  I don't think the feds should even know how much money I bring in.  Why should they know that?

I call that F R E E D O M ! ! !
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,297
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2019, 09:42:16 pm »
One of the valuable points to a consumption tax would be to NOT tax labor.  I don't think the feds should even know how much money I bring in.  Why should they know that?

That's right... And it would encourage savings - What you make is not taxed until you spend it... SO saving up would be a no-brainer... Putting folks back in the attitude that made us great for so many years, kinda herding folks away from materialism.

But more than anything, it makes the government a literal stakeholder in keeping the economy robust, and that may be the most important benefit. Right now, Uncle gets his rake regardless.


Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,331
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2019, 09:42:31 pm »
"A capitation is more natural to slavery; a duty on merchandise is more natural to liberty, by reason it has not so direct a relation to the person."



--Thomas Jefferson: copied into his Commonplace Book.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Sanguine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,986
  • Gender: Female
  • Ex-member
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2019, 09:46:27 pm »
That's right... And it would encourage savings - What you make is not taxed until you spend it... SO saving up would be a no-brainer... Putting folks back in the attitude that made us great for so many years, kinda herding folks away from materialism.

But more than anything, it makes the government a literal stakeholder in keeping the economy robust, and that may be the most important benefit. Right now, Uncle gets his rake regardless.

 :thumbsup:

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,331
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2019, 09:48:21 pm »
“The tax which each individual is bound to pay ought to be certain, and not arbitrary. The time of payment, the manner of payment, the quantity to be paid, ought all to be clear and plain to the contributor, and to every other person, so that the tax payer is not put in the power of the tax gatherer.”

Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations, 1776
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,331
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2019, 09:54:54 pm »
“The greatest tool Communism has in our toolbox is the progressive income tax.”

Karl Marx
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,331
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2019, 10:02:34 pm »
"What the income tax does is lead the people of this country down a path to where actual control of their resources, which in the end is the control over their will, is handed off to the government.

The government then manipulates that will in order to destroy the freedom of our electoral system through the income tax structure, and we call the resulting slavery a free system.

In point of fact, it is not as the founders understood, and the only way to restore real freedom is to give people back control over the income that they earn so that they won‘t, at the voting booth and in other phony issues, be subject to that manipulation."


   ALAN KEYES IS MAKING SENSE Television Show Monday, Jan. 28, 2002
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,331
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2019, 10:14:24 pm »
"It is a signal advantage of taxes on articles of consumption that they contain in their own nature a security against excess. They prescribe their own limit, which cannot be exceeded without defeating the end proposed - that is, an extension of the revenue.
 
When applied to this object, the saying is as just as it is witty that, in political arithmetic, two and two do not always make four. If duties are too high, they lessen the consumption; the collection is eluded; and the product to the treasury is not so great as when they are confined within proper and moderate bounds. This forms a complete barrier against any material oppression of the citizens by taxes of this class, and is itself a natural limitation of the power of imposing them."

Federalist #21
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,402
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2019, 10:46:52 pm »
"It is a signal advantage of taxes on articles of consumption that they contain in their own nature a security against excess. They prescribe their own limit, which cannot be exceeded without defeating the end proposed - that is, an extension of the revenue.
 
When applied to this object, the saying is as just as it is witty that, in political arithmetic, two and two do not always make four. If duties are too high, they lessen the consumption; the collection is eluded; and the product to the treasury is not so great as when they are confined within proper and moderate bounds. This forms a complete barrier against any material oppression of the citizens by taxes of this class, and is itself a natural limitation of the power of imposing them."

Federalist #21
All well and good, because no one then ever thought of a "Carbon Tax". 
Food wasn't taxed, nor doctors (such as they were), nor the fuels used to heat a home and cook.
Most of those duties were on imported items that were considered luxuries.
Some consumption is not optional. Tax it enough and people die.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline jmyrlefuller

  • J. Myrle Fuller
  • Cat Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,326
  • Gender: Male
  • Realistic nihilist
    • Fullervision
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #65 on: January 16, 2019, 03:35:33 pm »
You're right.  Our Income Tax system is so much better, and Constitutional to boot.
Behind that veil of sarcasm is a false dilemma.

That the current system is preferable to the one being proposed is a testament more to the awfulness of the FairTax than any perceived greatness for the current, likewise flawed and unbalanced system. Trading one bad system for a worse system won't get us anywhere but backward.
New profile picture in honor of Public Domain Day 2024

Offline Sanguine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,986
  • Gender: Female
  • Ex-member
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #66 on: January 16, 2019, 04:10:14 pm »
Behind that veil of sarcasm is a false dilemma.

That the current system is preferable to the one being proposed is a testament more to the awfulness of the FairTax than any perceived greatness for the current, likewise flawed and unbalanced system. Trading one bad system for a worse system won't get us anywhere but backward.

No, but trading our current horrible one for a better one will move us forward.

Why do you think this is such a bad plan?

Online Hoodat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,818
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #67 on: January 16, 2019, 08:25:20 pm »
It is the progressive (i.e. regressive) nature of our current income tax that make it so heinous.  Eliminate that by reducing the number of brackets down to one - a flat tax.  Everyone pays.  Everyone.  If you earn $5,000, you pay a flat percentage.  If you earn $50,000, you pay the same flat percentage.  And if you earn $50 million, you still pay the same flat percentage.

Everyone who earns income pays.  Everyone becomes vested in our government.  Everyone begins to care about upward spending spirals.  Everyone becomes concerned with where our tax dollars are going.  Everyone begins to hold government accountable.

And for those who don't pay?  They don't get to vote.  Voting is for taxpayers only.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline jmyrlefuller

  • J. Myrle Fuller
  • Cat Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,326
  • Gender: Male
  • Realistic nihilist
    • Fullervision
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #68 on: January 16, 2019, 08:29:02 pm »
No, but trading our current horrible one for a better one will move us forward.

Why do you think this is such a bad plan?
Because the end results combine the worst of capitalism (the rich get richer and the poor get poorer) with the worst of socialism (guaranteed government income rebates). Because its proponents have no grasp on the consequences of this scheme. Because it will invariably lead to one of two results: a litany of exemptions and loopholes making it no different than an income tax system, or widespread income inequality that would make today's already-strained situation look like an egalitarian paradise. The high-income earners would pay nothing while they profit off their stocks and investments, while the single mother struggling to get by is paying 30% to feed her children. Does that sound like a good idea to you?

I do not consider myself a socialist, but just as I don't think it's the government's job to soak the rich to pay the poor just for its sake, neither do I think they should soak the poor. Equal protection is in our Constitution. Our tax code should reflect that.

The poor spend more, as a percentage of their income. That's not because of irresponsibility; it's because, at a baseline, we all have the same essential needs. A consumption tax alone would thus hurt the already hurting.

I was a fan of Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan: it was broad-based and diverse in its approach to taxes. Everyone pays in. The FairTax does not; instead, it disproportionately hurts people who can least afford it.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 08:31:30 pm by jmyrlefuller »
New profile picture in honor of Public Domain Day 2024

Online Hoodat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,818
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2019, 08:48:03 pm »
Because the end results combine the worst of capitalism (the rich get richer and the poor get poorer)

That is not a tenet of capitalism.  There is always mobility across economic lines.  It is not uncommon for a person to be in the lowest quintile at one point in their lives and find themselves in the highest or second highest at another point.  Likewise, someone in the highest quintile at one point in their life can find him/herself in the lowest or second lowest at a later point.

Consider the struggling college student.  A sizeable percentage of the Palo Alto, CA population find themselves in the lowest quintile.  Zero income.  Deep in debt.  Yet within 15-20 years, many of these Stanford graduates find themselves earning top-quintile incomes.

The key to capitalism is that the pie grows.  A rising tide lifts all boats, and even those choosing to endure in that bottom quintile can now enjoy smart phones, internet access, wide screen TVs, refrigeration, hot water, microwaves, etc. - all unattainable luxuries to the bottom quintile a century before.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,402
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #70 on: January 16, 2019, 11:19:59 pm »
A rising tide only lifts the boats that are afloat. The rest just go under water or get in deeper.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,331
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2019, 12:17:34 am »
Because the end results combine the worst of capitalism (the rich get richer and the poor get poorer) with the worst of socialism (guaranteed government income rebates). Because its proponents have no grasp on the consequences of this scheme. Because it will invariably lead to one of two results: a litany of exemptions and loopholes making it no different than an income tax system, or widespread income inequality that would make today's already-strained situation look like an egalitarian paradise. The high-income earners would pay nothing while they profit off their stocks and investments, while the single mother struggling to get by is paying 30% to feed her children. Does that sound like a good idea to you?

I do not consider myself a socialist, but just as I don't think it's the government's job to soak the rich to pay the poor just for its sake, neither do I think they should soak the poor. Equal protection is in our Constitution. Our tax code should reflect that.

The poor spend more, as a percentage of their income. That's not because of irresponsibility; it's because, at a baseline, we all have the same essential needs. A consumption tax alone would thus hurt the already hurting.

I was a fan of Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan: it was broad-based and diverse in its approach to taxes. Everyone pays in. The FairTax does not; instead, it disproportionately hurts people who can least afford it.

I had to go visit with the neurosurgeon who performed my surgery today so I'm late getting to this @jmyrlefuller but would you mind explaining to me just how allowing you to keep your entire paycheck (zero federal deductions period) favors the rich over the poor?

Then perhaps you can tell me how being able to earn all you want to earn, from any source you want, without having to think about taxes, even for a second, favors the rich over the poor. 


Then maybe you can explain how the federal government not knowing how much, or from what sources, you derive your income favors the rich over the poor.  And then you can tell me how protecting you from paying ANY taxes what so ever up to whatever the DHS says the poverty level is favors the rich over the poor.

After you get done with that, you might tell me how wringing out ALL of the taxes and compliance costs currently hidden in the prices of every thin produced in this country favors the rich over the poor.

I have MANY more such question should you be willing to answer them.


And BTW:  Herman Cain is a HUGE proponent of the Fairtax!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,331
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #72 on: January 17, 2019, 12:26:49 am »
All well and good, because no one then ever thought of a "Carbon Tax". 
Food wasn't taxed, nor doctors (such as they were), nor the fuels used to heat a home and cook.
Most of those duties were on imported items that were considered luxuries.
Some consumption is not optional. Tax it enough and people die.

I'm sorry @Smokin Joe but that is incorrect as well!  I do believe we revolted over a tax on Tea which is considered a food where I come from.

As to Some consumption not being optimal, that is precisely why the Fairtax would put consumers back in the driver's seat and is EXACTLY what was being discussed in the excerpt from Federalist 21 I posted!


I just wish the same understand of such things that the founders possessed were around today!  If it were, The Marxist income tax would have been history already and I could move on to something else!



And BTW: Obamacare would have been and impossible dream had the Fairtax been in place at the time!

« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:29:52 am by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,402
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #73 on: January 17, 2019, 12:35:25 am »
I'm sorry @Smokin Joe but that is incorrect as well!  I do believe we revolted over a tax on Tea which is considered a food where I come from.

As to Some consumption not being optimal, that is precisely why the Fairtax would put consumers back in the driver's seat and is EXACTLY what was being discussed in the excerpt from Federalist 21 I posted!


I just wish the same understand of such things that the founders possessed were around today!  If it were, The Marxist income tax would have been history already and I could move on to something else!



And BTW: Obamacare would have been and impossible dream had the Fairtax been in place at the time!
With all due respect, heat is not f***ing optional in North Dakota. YOU MUST have it or die. Yet some dweeb in DC might decide (in the face of the enviro jihad) that people in ND didn't need any more natural gas or electricity than someone in Key West. What you need depends on where you live, and one size fits all policy only means some benefit and others still get screwed.

Just don't tax it. and the problem goes away. :shrug:

The colonists rebelled over about 3% total taxes. America missed that boat long ago.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,331
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #74 on: January 17, 2019, 12:50:59 am »
With all due respect, heat is not f***ing optional in North Dakota. YOU MUST have it or die. Yet some dweeb in DC might decide (in the face of the enviro jihad) that people in ND didn't need any more natural gas or electricity than someone in Key West. What you need depends on where you live, and one size fits all policy only means some benefit and others still get screwed.

Just don't tax it. and the problem goes away. :shrug:

The colonists rebelled over about 3% total taxes. America missed that boat long ago.

Of course heat is not optional and the fuel to produce it would be one hell of a lot easier to obtain if it were free of all the taxes and compliance costs the producers and distributors are compelled by basic economics to include in it's price under the current system!  In other words, it's already being HIGHLY taxed but in a manner that is hidden from consumers!  Get it out into the sunshine and see what rate they will stand for!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien