Author Topic: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy  (Read 14514 times)

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Online Bigun

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2019, 10:16:53 pm »
You clearly don't working in Ranching as a side income like I do.  30% tax on tractor, no way.

When you wring out all of the taxes and compliance costs you are currently paying, the cost of that tractor, including taxes, will be the same or less than you would pay for it today. Same for houses, cars, and any other long supply chain item.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

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Offline Hoodat

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2019, 10:57:21 pm »
Quite the other way around. Sellers are already used to taxes, a robust system already exists, and is far better off to report the sale as to leave it in inventory.

A seller would have a big incentive to sell things out of the back of the store, off the books.  I can see a thriving black market economy developing.  Just like smuggling and selling Virginia cigarettes in New York.
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2019, 11:14:40 pm »
A seller would have a big incentive to sell things out of the back of the store, off the books.  I can see a thriving black market economy developing.  Just like smuggling and selling Virginia cigarettes in New York.

Well, don't they now?  What would be the difference? 

Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2019, 11:27:27 pm »
Not only is capital highly mobile today, but the rapid pace of tech means continuous and often large capital reinvestment is required, something high tax rates kill faster than an orchid in Alaska in January.
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2019, 11:28:18 pm »
Well, don't they now?  What would be the difference?

A federal sales tax on top of a state sales tax would push the overall sales tax upward 25%.  Saving 25% is a much better incentive over saving 7%.  Which is why people smuggle Virginia cigarettes into New York instead of Pennsylvania or New Jersey.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

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Offline roamer_1

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2019, 11:30:16 pm »
A seller would have a big incentive to sell things out of the back of the store, off the books.  I can see a thriving black market economy developing.  Just like smuggling and selling Virginia cigarettes in New York.

The cash economy is already there and thriving... to include labor, so what's the difference?

Offline roamer_1

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2019, 11:31:08 pm »
Well, don't they now?  What would be the difference?

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Offline roamer_1

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2019, 11:32:24 pm »
A federal sales tax on top of a state sales tax would push the overall sales tax upward 25%.  Saving 25% is a much better incentive over saving 7%.  Which is why people smuggle Virginia cigarettes into New York instead of Pennsylvania or New Jersey.

There is only state tax. The feds would have to get their rake out of the states... Giving the states the power, not the feds.

Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2019, 11:38:27 pm »
You clearly don't working in Ranching as a side income like I do.  30% tax on tractor, no way.
Most every business has gamed the deduction system already. Corporations do not operate under the same income tax system as most Americans do. The deductions and loopholes available to them are far different than what is available to someone making a middle-class income.

The FairTax has no deductions. That's why they propose the Basic Income as a substitute, disguised as a "prebate." It is a recipe for rampant inflation.
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2019, 11:39:03 pm »
There is only state tax. The feds would have to get their rake out of the states... Giving the states the power, not the feds.

So what is to stop the state of Illinois from implementing a 27% sales tax, and then not turning over a penny of that to the federal government?  Or why should a state like New Hampshire which soundly rejects a sales go against the will of the people and start charging one?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

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Offline roamer_1

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2019, 12:41:00 am »
So what is to stop the state of Illinois from implementing a 27% sales tax, and then not turning over a penny of that to the federal government?  Or why should a state like New Hampshire which soundly rejects a sales go against the will of the people and start charging one?

Exactly. That is how it is supposed to be. And if folks don't like it, go where it's better.

Can't hardly do that now. You'll pay Fed no matter where you go.

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2019, 01:04:36 am »
Title and premise:
"High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy"

The article misses the point. That point is: it doesn't matter whether the economy can support higher taxes. All that matters is that taxes be higher.

We've reached the point in history where the takers nearly outnumber the makers. Where tax-revenue consumers almost outnumber the tax-revenue generators.

The "constituency" of the occassional-communist doesn't care about low tax rates, because many of them have never PAID taxes. Quite the contrary, the higher tax rates are on the revenue-producers, the MORE money for "benefits" there is for them to use up.

So... the higher the rate of taxaton she wants to impose, the MORE likely they are to support and vote for her.

Kabish...?

Offline thackney

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2019, 01:07:41 am »
When you wring out all of the taxes and compliance costs you are currently paying, the cost of that tractor, including taxes, will be the same or less than you would pay for it today. Same for houses, cars, and any other long supply chain item.

Are you really trying to claim prices would be the same, but no income tax would be collected?

You forget all that business buys, that would now have a sales tax attached. 

I tell you what, I won't vote for anyone pushing this nonsense.
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Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2019, 01:36:54 am »
Are you really trying to claim prices would be the same, but no income tax would be collected?

You forget all that business buys, that would now have a sales tax attached. 

I tell you what, I won't vote for anyone pushing this nonsense.

Oh, there'll be an income tax.  But a small percentage, and only for the highest earners.

At first.
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Online Bigun

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2019, 03:03:35 am »
Are you really trying to claim prices would be the same, but no income tax would be collected?

You forget all that business buys, that would now have a sales tax attached. 

I tell you what, I won't vote for anyone pushing this nonsense.

You must enjoy being a slave!  Enjoy!

PS: I didn't forget anything but YOOU are apparently too lazy to read and learn.  The Fairtax would be collected at the point of final retail sale only!
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 03:05:25 am by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2019, 10:47:25 am »
You don't have to tax some basic items, and we haven't covered our federal budget in a long time.
IMHO, just don't tax what the prebate would cover, and do away with the prebate and eliminate another bureaucracy. No tax on food, primary housing purchase, clothing, energy (heating/cooling/cooking/refrigeration), and medical care. Motor fuels and electricity for cars could still be taxed (as it is now).
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2019, 02:30:59 pm »
The cash economy is already there and thriving... to include labor, so what's the difference?

There is a disincentive in place for not reporting income.  Income is a cost to the employer.  A sale is a benefit.  If an employer fails to report income, then he is failing to report a write-off.  Not so with sales.  Sales are not write-offs, but instead something requiring taxes be paid.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2019, 02:35:14 pm »
There is a disincentive in place for not reporting income.  Income is a cost to the employer.  A sale is a benefit.  If an employer fails to report income, then he is failing to report a write-off.  Not so with sales.  Sales are not write-offs, but instead something requiring taxes be paid.
Point well taken. One of the big selling points for the legalization of pot in Colorado was the revenues from taxes on the sales. Problem is, off the books sales continue, and by some sources account for 50% or more of actual sales--and that doesn't count 'hard' drugs.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Bigun

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2019, 03:21:00 pm »
IMHO, just don't tax what the prebate would cover, and do away with the prebate and eliminate another bureaucracy. No tax on food, primary housing purchase, clothing, energy (heating/cooling/cooking/refrigeration), and medical care. Motor fuels and electricity for cars could still be taxed (as it is now).

You want the government to determine what your necessities are?  I don't! I think I can do that FAR better than they could or would.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2019, 05:51:23 pm »
You want the government to determine what your necessities are?  I don't! I think I can do that FAR better than they could or would.
They have to do so to determine what the prebate is anyway. The categories I mentioned are intentionally broad and would be exempt. No tax. And there would be one less government bureaucracy, 'The Ministry of Prebates' would never happen.

Otherwise, someone has to determine how much will be 'prebated', someone has to distribute those prebates, keep track of address changes, etc., handle complaints, track/prosecute fraud, etc.

Just stop that before it starts.

 Don't tax the basic necessities: Food (Whatever you eat, no tax), Shelter (just one home to live in--you want ten, pay the tax on the other nine, You want a huge house, fine, no tax---even a really big house is going to be filled with taxable stuff), Medical care, clothing (because they won't let you run around naked, and you'd freeze to death without it here), and the energy to heat/cool your home.
Whether you use more or less of those, is up to you, but it isn't taxed. and no army of gubmint employees to determine how much you get prebated on however much they think you need.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2019, 06:32:13 pm »
The only thing the FairTax is any good for doing is selling books for a horribly flawed scam that will never get passed into law.
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2019, 06:39:22 pm »
The only thing the FairTax is any good for doing is selling books for a horribly flawed scam that will never get passed into law.

You're right.  Our Income Tax system is so much better, and Constitutional to boot.

Online Bigun

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2019, 08:06:39 pm »
They have to do so to determine what the prebate is anyway. The categories I mentioned are intentionally broad and would be exempt. No tax. And there would be one less government bureaucracy, 'The Ministry of Prebates' would never happen.

Otherwise, someone has to determine how much will be 'prebated', someone has to distribute those prebates, keep track of address changes, etc., handle complaints, track/prosecute fraud, etc.

Just stop that before it starts.

 Don't tax the basic necessities: Food (Whatever you eat, no tax), Shelter (just one home to live in--you want ten, pay the tax on the other nine, You want a huge house, fine, no tax---even a really big house is going to be filled with taxable stuff), Medical care, clothing (because they won't let you run around naked, and you'd freeze to death without it here), and the energy to heat/cool your home.
Whether you use more or less of those, is up to you, but it isn't taxed. and no army of gubmint employees to determine how much you get prebated on however much they think you need.

Sorry @Smokin Joe but you are just plain wrong about that.  Please watch the short videos https://fairtax.org/about/how-fairtax-works

Sorry...
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 08:10:04 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2019, 08:12:41 pm »
The only thing the FairTax is any good for doing is selling books for a horribly flawed scam that will never get passed into law.

Really?  Why are you so in LOVE with the Marxist Income tax and it's necessary attendat IRS?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 08:23:30 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline roamer_1

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Re: High Tax Rates Won’t Work in Today’s Economy
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2019, 08:16:16 pm »
There is a disincentive in place for not reporting income.  Income is a cost to the employer.  A sale is a benefit.  If an employer fails to report income, then he is failing to report a write-off. Not so with sales.  Sales are not write-offs, but instead something requiring taxes be paid.

You are kidding right? VERY large jobs are often paid in lunch buckets of cash every two weeks... In such cases, the entire job is off the books... The single major problem working a cash job, is that the parts for those jobs also must be cash, and are never delivered direct - the reason being that sales are uniquely tracked far more successfully than labor is.

How do you think the cash labor market works, and why? How is it that the hordes of illegal aliens continue to find work? Because labor is the most expensive aspect of most jobs, and cash labor costs literally half of the cost of legit labor, simply by avoiding the taxes and 'withholding', even when paying a good hourly wage.

OF COURSE there is a massive attraction toward using cash labor.
Sales, on the other hand, are tracked from manufacture right to your shelves, entirely beyond your control... Every single piece on the store shelves are individually serialized, and often 'floored' (sorta like leasing) by secondary sources - The only way out of today's sales tracking is called 'shrinkage', which allows for a certain small amount of loss due to damage on the shelf or from theft, and even that is guarded by algorithms... Or a planned burgling of one's own inventory, where a staged break-in can convert that inventory into street level cash, and the flooring gets paid by insurance... There are not many other ways to keep sales off the books...