Author Topic: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party  (Read 33541 times)

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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #175 on: November 20, 2018, 05:54:44 pm »
It seems noble to want all people to have access to basic healthcare regardless of their income level.

Everyone in this country already has access to basic healthcare.


Being okay with people dying because they don't have enough money seems...wrong. I think we can do better than that.

Yet you seem to be OK with people dying because the rationing of health care leaves some people going without.

Oh, and for the record, it isn't about money.  Fully one-sixth of our GDP goes towards health care costs.  This is the highest in the world.  So no, people aren't dying in this country because they don't happen to have enough money.  However, in other countries, people are indeed dying because government has replaced the individual as the health care consumer.
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Offline goodwithagun

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #176 on: November 20, 2018, 06:01:31 pm »
Do you think it's possible to somehow bring the costs of healthcare down to the point that it is possible? You're right. It'll never be cost possible as long as hospitals are charging people 50 dollars for a Tylenol and 100 dollars for a bag with water in it.

You’re right, and the only way to bring costs down is to eliminate any federal or state health insurance requirements. When employers and governments are no longer required to provide health insurance, you’ll see prices drop to levels that working class families can afford to pay out of pocket.
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #177 on: November 20, 2018, 06:06:38 pm »
You’re right, and the only way to bring costs down is to eliminate any federal or state health insurance requirements. When employers and governments are no longer required to provide health insurance, you’ll see prices drop to levels that working class families can afford to pay out of pocket.

You got that right.  Before Obamacare, my daughter had an individual policy with a $500 deductible that gave here everything she wanted.  It cost her $118/month.  After Obamacare, the only thing that came close was a policy with a $5,800 deductible.  It cost $300/month.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

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Offline LMAO

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #178 on: November 20, 2018, 06:09:49 pm »
Everyone in this country already has access to basic healthcare.


Yet you seem to be OK with people dying because the rationing of health care leaves some people going without.

Oh, and for the record, it isn't about money.  Fully one-sixth of our GDP goes towards health care costs.  This is the highest in the world.  So no, people aren't dying in this country because they don't happen to have enough money.  However, in other countries, people are indeed dying because government has replaced the individual as the health care consumer.

I used to work in an emergency room and there was a sign inside the door that said “everybody will be treated regardless of ability to pay” that’s the law

I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

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Offline Emjay

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #179 on: November 20, 2018, 06:46:49 pm »
I used to work in an emergency room and there was a sign inside the door that said “everybody will be treated regardless of ability to pay” that’s the law

I went to an emergency room at a hospital in Irving one time.  My husband had some kind of emergency.

It was a real eye-opener for me.

While I was there with him, three Black families came in, one after another.  They were bringing their children because of head lice.  All families were treated with care and respect.  They were given help and instructions on how to deal with the lice.

We DO all have emergency health care.
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #180 on: November 20, 2018, 06:48:37 pm »
I used to work in an emergency room and there was a sign inside the door that said “everybody will be treated regardless of ability to pay” that’s the law

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #181 on: November 20, 2018, 06:58:06 pm »
I simply don't believe these things are impossible to do efficiently somehow. I think conservatives aren't looking for those possibilities because they're simply not interested in the prospect. They don't want to have that conversation.


Your problem is you're looking at this strictly from an emotional point of view.  You're not looking at it logically from any fact based perspective.  Your perspective is completely driven by emotion.
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Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #182 on: November 20, 2018, 07:10:46 pm »
I simply don't believe these things are impossible to do efficiently somehow. I think conservatives aren't looking for those possibilities because they're simply not interested in the prospect. They don't want to have that conversation.



It's simple history.
If we could do this correctly (whatever that may mean), and efficiently, you wouldn't be hearing horror stories about the VA, Medicare, and Medicaid.
If they can't provide proper healthcare to these smaller segments of the population, why do you think they will be able to do so if we add everyone?
The conversations HAS been had and the evidence IS in.

Offline Dexter

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #183 on: November 20, 2018, 07:17:18 pm »
Your problem is you're looking at this strictly from an emotional point of view.  You're not looking at it logically from any fact based perspective.  Your perspective is completely driven by emotion.

If 400 million+ people in Europe can make national healthcare work then so can the United States. Things can and should be adjusted. If you think that's impossible I think you severely underestimate American intelligence and ingenuity. To me nationalism is about elevating all Americans as much as possible. I want us to be the healthiest and most educated country on Earth. I want us to produce state of the art technology that's the envy of the world, and when they buy it from us I want a big god damn American flag on it so they never forget who kicks the most ass. I just don't see it your way and I never will. I try to use my logic and my emotions when sorting through these issues. I think balance is necessary.
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #184 on: November 20, 2018, 07:18:16 pm »
It's simple history.
If we could do this correctly (whatever that may mean), and efficiently, you wouldn't be hearing horror stories about the VA, Medicare, and Medicaid.
If they can't provide proper healthcare to these smaller segments of the population, why do you think they will be able to do so if we add everyone?
The conversations HAS been had and the evidence IS in.

We must be really freaking stupid if we can't figure out how to make this stuff work at least as well as it does in Europe. I happen to think our potential far exceeds theirs.
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Offline LMAO

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #185 on: November 20, 2018, 07:28:53 pm »
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 You have demonstrated with this that you don’t know  what emergency care is
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

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Offline Dexter

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #186 on: November 20, 2018, 07:30:08 pm »
You have demonstrated with this that you don’t know what emergency care is

I must be pretty clueless to not understand what emergency care is.

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Offline austingirl

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #187 on: November 20, 2018, 07:33:21 pm »
Conservatives are having that conversation with you right now.  And it's not because we aren't looking for the possibilities because we aren't interested in the prospect.  We are looking at the historical evidence as well as the practicalities of what is needed.  The Conservative approach on these threads has been to ask questions about problems that could (and will) arise.  And each and every time, you have abstained from addressing them.  So if here is anyone here who doesn't want to have the conversation, it is you.

You have been asked about maximizing tax revenue.  You have been asked about removing incentives to work.  You have been asked about current deficits, service shortfalls, monopoly inefficiency, the failures of current socialist systems, and even Bernie Sanders' own words.  And each and every time, you have refused to have the conversation. 

The ball is in your court.  Conservatives here have shown an eagerness to engage in conversation.  They have shown a willingness to discuss feasibility and implementation.  Why haven't you?
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Offline austingirl

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #188 on: November 20, 2018, 07:38:25 pm »
Look at England where they have public healthcare. They have a two tier system and anyone with money goes to a private doctor. Look at Canada where the waiting list is months long for basic surgeries and rather than wait, Canadiens with money come to the US for surgery. Seems like it all boils down to money.

Healthcare is a service provided by trained people who spent money to be educated in the field so they could be licensed and provide the service. Much of the cost is for personnel. I suppose some want the providers to work for little to no money. Sounds like a brilliant socialist idea.
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Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #189 on: November 20, 2018, 07:44:40 pm »
We must be really freaking stupid if we can't figure out how to make this stuff work at least as well as it does in Europe. I happen to think our potential far exceeds theirs.

If my 3 examples of what we have tried so in the US do not convince you, perhaps nothing will, but I'll try this:


The social welfare model is crumbling as the European Union fragments. Falling birthrates and increasing lifespans, moreover, are shrinking Europe's labor market. As their economies languish, many EU members, especially those in Southern Europe, have begun relying on debt to finance their increasingly unsustainable welfare systems. And proposed solutions to this problem, such as drawing in more migrants to join the workforce, increasing the retirement age, raising taxes or cutting social spending, have met with public backlash. Instead of curtailing spending, Europe's early health care reforms will likely focus on incentivizing efficiency. Taking away what voters have come to expect from their governments would be a risky endeavor for Europe's leaders. Besides, the cracks already are starting to show in the long-standing socialized system as for-profit hospitals pop up across the Continent.


...it could just be the reality that any of these universal health care systems are doomed to failure, given enough time, wrong demographics,waste, abuse, fraud, etc.

It may have nothing to do with how "really freaking stupid we are" or if "our potential far exceeds theirs".

One's own health care is an awfully powerful thing to leave in the hands of bureaucrats.......





Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #190 on: November 20, 2018, 08:17:27 pm »
Details aside for just a moment, do you think it would be possible for us to lower those prices and then emulate European healthcare? I'm not asking if you agree with it, just if you think it would be possible.
Why emulate the second string?  Many of the costs inherent in the healthcare system are government imposed: HIPAA cost so much more for one local doctor (just to have people to fill out the paperwork so he could see patients) that he finally just quit. When patients get treated and do not pay (despite obamacare, there are a host of 'undocumented' patients), and those most likely to need the highest levels of critical care (ER, trauma surgery) aren't generally the wealthiest, but those who are busy shooting each other in inner cities. There are far too many freebie seekers, and the government restructuring of insurance plans has made it more difficult for those who don't just get insurance at work to carry coverage to at least defray the costs of the most severe medical circumstances.

Typically, the government has made the problem worse, not better.

Hospitals, doctors, extended care/rehab facilities (not drug rehab, but injury rehab) are all businesses. If they can't run in the black, there will be no new equipment, no paint on the walls, no incentive to not be a stockbroker or CPA instead. You can love what you do, but you can't continue to do it at a loss. You want people who literally hold the life or death of a patient in their hands to work for chump change? Won't happen, as a rule.
Consider as much as half their gross will go to insurance payments for malpractice insurance, and the rest is a disincentive to pursue the field.

If the best and brightest don't go into medicine, that bodes ill for the future.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #191 on: November 20, 2018, 08:38:33 pm »
We must be really freaking stupid if we can't figure out how to make this stuff work at least as well as it does in Europe. I happen to think our potential far exceeds theirs.

And you're really naive if you think that the European way works better than ours.

I lived there for 6 years and saw how it worked for Europeans.

It doesn't work near as well as you think it does.
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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #192 on: November 20, 2018, 08:53:48 pm »
We must be really freaking stupid if we can't figure out how to make this stuff work at least as well as it does in Europe. I happen to think our potential far exceeds theirs.

Sure.  Radically limit damages for personal injuries, cut back on medical malpractice claims, and let people die from mostly age-related illnesses that they don’t die from over here.  Let it take six months to a year or longer between the time your doctor orders heart valve replacement surgery and the time it’s scheduled to happen.  A significant number of the affected will “voluntarily” contribute to cost-cutting by dying before their surgery is scheduled.  Oh, and find a sugar-daddy who will pay for the development of the miracle drugs you sell at low prices, because price controls will kill off this country’s pharma research. 

Offline Emjay

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #193 on: November 20, 2018, 09:03:49 pm »
And you're really naive if you think that the European way works better than ours.

I lived there for 6 years and saw how it worked for Europeans.

It doesn't work near as well as you think it does.

It's no better in England.  I had a dear friend in my church who was a British war bride who made a good career for herself in banking.  She was always nostalgic about England.

 A few years after her husband died, she sold everything and moved back.  It wasn't a month before harsh reality and deep disappointment set in.

  Not only was her family not as great as she remembered but the health care she thought would be great was horrible.  She wrote me saying 'she'd made the biggest mistake of her life.'  It took her a year to return but the whole thing took a toll on her health.
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Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #194 on: November 20, 2018, 09:15:11 pm »
Sure.  Radically limit damages for personal injuries, cut back on medical malpractice claims, and let people die from mostly age-related illnesses that they don’t die from over here.  Let it take six months to a year or longer between the time your doctor orders heart valve replacement surgery and the time it’s scheduled to happen.  A significant number of the affected will “voluntarily” contribute to cost-cutting by dying before their surgery is scheduled.  Oh, and find a sugar-daddy who will pay for the development of the miracle drugs you sell at low prices, because price controls will kill off this country’s pharma research.

...other than that, we'd be perfectly fine..... :cool:

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #195 on: November 20, 2018, 09:24:42 pm »
We must be really freaking stupid if we can't figure out how to make this stuff work at least as well as it does in Europe. I happen to think our potential far exceeds theirs.

We must be really freaking stupid to insist that this will work here without devoting a second of critical thought and reason to the equation.  Besides, it wouldn't be fair to Canadians who rely on the US hospitals to treat the ailments that are left untreated in Canada.

But it is clear to the rest of us that you want less doctors, less hospitals, considerably less money spent, longer waits, lower medical availability, and lower quality care just so we can be like Europe.  Because that is EXACTLY what your emotions are advocating.
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #196 on: November 20, 2018, 09:32:55 pm »
If the best and brightest don't go into medicine, that bodes ill for the future.

Currently, the best and brightest all over the world come to the United States to practice medicine.  In Canada, 88% of medical school graduates leave Canada to become doctors elsewhere.  If the financing of our healthcare industry becomes marginalized through government takeover, then we will lose this uptake of the best and brightest.
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #197 on: November 20, 2018, 09:51:33 pm »
If the financing of our healthcare industry becomes marginalized through government takeover, then we will lose this uptake of the best and brightest.

Which country without universal healthcare would they go to?

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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #198 on: November 20, 2018, 10:56:48 pm »
They would most likely remain in their home country.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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Online roamer_1

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #199 on: November 20, 2018, 10:58:51 pm »
I simply don't believe these things are impossible to do efficiently somehow. I think conservatives aren't looking for those possibilities because they're simply not interested in the prospect. They don't want to have that conversation.

That is the point - there is no efficiency the minute you do it by government.
You have been given your answer throughout this conversation - It is YOU who doesn't want to hear it:

Government is NEVER the answer. The government powerful enough to do what you want is powerful enough to do what IT wants, and that has never been a good thing.

If you want cheap, excellent health care, then knock out the things that are propping up the price and let the free market work. What is propping up the price? The number one thing is government. The next thing is insurance. Follow with tort reform and regulations and licensing.... ALL of these things prop up the market and cause the cost to be artificially high. What you propose not only will further increase the cost, but will lock it into a governmental monopoly - The very worst case of all.

And further, restore the ability of non-profit charitable orgs to be in the business of health care. In my youth, churches owned all the hospitals except pitiable county hospitals... At the time, a churches' balance sheet was treated en-toto, with a bottom line providing whether or not they could maintain non-profit status.  Some time in the 70's that changed. Changes in law made it to where individual aspects of a charity were taken on their own merit - Since healthcare was a profitable sector, it caused churches to get out of hospitals and clinics, because they could no longer 'hide' the 'profit' by shifting it to feeding the poor or some such...

In a single sweep, the federal government gave healthcare to for-profit businesses, and greatly diminished the Church in all aspects of charity (by removing their money generating health systems) - Supercharging the 'need' for federal welfare and federal healthcare.

Now insurance companies own the hospitals and hospitals own the doctor groups... Can't you see how that is a problem? Give it back to the Church. The Church does charity naturally, and way better than business or government ever will.