Author Topic: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party  (Read 33431 times)

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Offline Dexter

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #150 on: November 20, 2018, 02:51:37 pm »

That problem preceded the Islamic influx and forced the government to be less generous to non-workers. The Islamic problem is its own thing.


There is obviously a balance that must be found. They will continue to help people as much as is possible.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #151 on: November 20, 2018, 03:22:09 pm »

There is obviously a balance that must be found. They will continue to help people as much as is possible.

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #152 on: November 20, 2018, 03:27:07 pm »
Now you are telling me I have gotten impressions that I never expressed?
There you go again, changing the tune.

I've made the statement, and stand by it 100% the the previous model of socialism they've employed since the 70's had to be changed, or else it would have collapsed.
They have just under 10 million people, so they can probably work out a system on healthcare and education issues that works for them.
They are smaller than a lot of our states.
States?
Oh yeah, that reminds me, we have a 10th amendment!
If the states want to subsidize college education and free healthcare, go ahead, but leave the Federal Government out of it.
One single version for over 300 million people would wreck the economy.

 States have tried to implement universal healthcare.  The obstacle? Cost. It’s as simple as that. You cannot defeat math or economics
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #153 on: November 20, 2018, 03:37:45 pm »
States have tried to implement universal healthcare.  The obstacle? Cost. It’s as simple as that. You cannot defeat math or economics

Do you think it's possible to somehow bring the costs of healthcare down to the point that it is possible? You're right. It'll never be cost possible as long as hospitals are charging people 50 dollars for a Tylenol and 100 dollars for a bag with water in it. 
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #154 on: November 20, 2018, 03:44:36 pm »
Do you think it's possible to somehow bring the costs of healthcare down to the point that it is possible? You're right. It'll never be cost possible as long as hospitals are charging people 50 dollars for a Tylenol and 100 dollars for a bag with water in it.

You want to get rid of that kind of cost.  Then push your Congress Critters to pass tort reform.

Healthcare costs are as sky high as they are due in large part to the amount of malpractice insurance an individual doctor or a hospital has to carry to protect itself from the slip and fall John Edwards type lawyers out there.

Like with any consumer product or producer that is impacted by an increase in costs forced on them by the government...that increased cost gets passed along to the consumer.

Businesses have to pay higher costs for healthcare due to Obamacare being forced on them...they pass along the increase to the consumer to cover their own costs.  the alternative is to cut employees to cover the cost.

IIRC Medicare only pays doctors that take it .70 cents on the dollar and they take their sweet time reimbursing the doctors for the care they give.

Obamacare was trying to force doctors to accept .60 cents on the dollar at one point with the same slow repayment.

Doctors are small businessmen...they have costs...payrolls...staff that all have to get paid...to stay in business they ahve to increase the cost of the care they give to the people that can afford not to have Obamacare.

You want healthcare costs to come down...besides tort reform...get the government the hell out of the healthcare business...they don't belong there...not in the capacity they have put themselves in.
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #155 on: November 20, 2018, 03:47:07 pm »
You want to get rid of that kind of cost.  Then push your Congress Critters to pass tort reform.

Healthcare costs are as sky high as they are due in large part to the amount of malpractice insurance an individual doctor or a hospital has to carry to protect itself from the slip and fall John Edwards type lawyers out there.

Like with any consumer product or producer that is impacted by an increase in costs forced on them by the government...that increased cost gets passed along to the consumer.

Businesses have to pay higher costs for healthcare due to Obamacare being forced on them...they pass along the increase to the consumer to cover their own costs.  the alternative is to cut employees to cover the cost.

IIRC Medicare only pays doctors that take it .70 cents on the dollar and they take their sweet time reimbursing the doctors for the care they give.

Obamacare was trying to force doctors to accept .60 cents on the dollar at one point with the same slow repayment.

Doctors are small businessmen...they have costs...payrolls...staff that all have to get paid...to stay in business they ahve to increase the cost of the care they give to the people that can afford not to have Obamacare.

You want healthcare costs to come down...besides tort reform...get the government the hell out of the healthcare business...they don't belong there...not in the capacity they have put themselves in.

Details aside for just a moment, do you think it would be possible for us to lower those prices and then emulate European healthcare? I'm not asking if you agree with it, just if you think it would be possible.
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Offline Emjay

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #156 on: November 20, 2018, 03:50:37 pm »
You want to get rid of that kind of cost.  Then push your Congress Critters to pass tort reform.

Healthcare costs are as sky high as they are due in large part to the amount of malpractice insurance an individual doctor or a hospital has to carry to protect itself from the slip and fall John Edwards type lawyers out there.

Like with any consumer product or producer that is impacted by an increase in costs forced on them by the government...that increased cost gets passed along to the consumer.

Businesses have to pay higher costs for healthcare due to Obamacare being forced on them...they pass along the increase to the consumer to cover their own costs.  the alternative is to cut employees to cover the cost.

IIRC Medicare only pays doctors that take it .70 cents on the dollar and they take their sweet time reimbursing the doctors for the care they give.

Obamacare was trying to force doctors to accept .60 cents on the dollar at one point with the same slow repayment.

Doctors are small businessmen...they have costs...payrolls...staff that all have to get paid...to stay in business they ahve to increase the cost of the care they give to the people that can afford not to have Obamacare.

You want healthcare costs to come down...besides tort reform...get the government the hell out of the healthcare business...they don't belong there...not in the capacity they have put themselves in.

Amen to all you said.  Didn't GWB try to pass tort reform in Texas?  Seems like I remember that.
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Offline endicom

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #157 on: November 20, 2018, 03:56:02 pm »
You want to get rid of that kind of cost.  Then push your Congress Critters to pass tort reform.

Healthcare costs are as sky high as they are due in large part to the amount of malpractice insurance an individual doctor or a hospital has to carry to protect itself from the slip and fall John Edwards type lawyers out there.


I was at an HMO clinic and seated outside the lounge/lunch room. The conversation inside was about little else than the costs of malpractice insurance. This was in 1990.


Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #158 on: November 20, 2018, 04:00:07 pm »
Amen to all you said.  Didn't GWB try to pass tort reform in Texas?  Seems like I remember that.

It was passed in 2003.

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #159 on: November 20, 2018, 04:50:15 pm »
Details aside for just a moment, do you think it would be possible for us to lower those prices and then emulate European healthcare? I'm not asking if you agree with it, just if you think it would be possible.

No we couldn't.  What the left fails to take into consideration when using European health care as an example of something we should use here is the vast population differences between the European countries and the U.S.

It's a lot easier to pull off government run health care in a country of 20 million than it is in a country of 320 million.
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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #160 on: November 20, 2018, 04:54:08 pm »
It was passed in 2003.

And he was still pushing for it in 2005 to try and bring down toe out of control settlements in medical malpractice lawsuits.

To stop the John Edwards' of the word from channeling the the spirit of a dead child to sway a jury to give multi million dollar settlements in class action lawsuits based on shaky if not outright junk science.

I don't think any meaningful tort reform in that arena has been passed yet.  I seem to remember it still being discussed in 2010 about the time Obamacare was set to pass.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #161 on: November 20, 2018, 04:57:05 pm »
No we couldn't.  What the left fails to take into consideration when using European health care as an example of something we should use here is the vast population differences between the European countries and the U.S.

It's a lot easier to pull off government run health care in a country of 20 million than it is in a country of 320 million.

And Europe implemented their systems while we funded their defense during the Cold War. But they also have an aging population so their systems will face increasing pressures
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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #162 on: November 20, 2018, 05:04:05 pm »
And Europe implemented their systems while we funded their defense during the Cold War. But they also have an aging population so their systems will face increasing pressures

Exactly.  Their birthrate replacement levels have been dangerously low for decades...hence the reason countries like Germany have been taking in so many refugees...they need the bodies to do the jobs.

The populations are old and dying and causing a bigger and bigger drain on the system.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline Dexter

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #163 on: November 20, 2018, 05:04:23 pm »
No we couldn't.  What the left fails to take into consideration when using European health care as an example of something we should use here is the vast population differences between the European countries and the U.S.

It's a lot easier to pull off government run health care in a country of 20 million than it is in a country of 320 million.

A country of 320 million has a lot more cash flow than a country of 20 million. I don't think the population argument works. Bigger population = more taxes to work with. We are the richest country on Earth.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 05:04:54 pm by Dexter »
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #164 on: November 20, 2018, 05:15:03 pm »
We are the richest country on Earth.

The implementation of socialism will change all that.  Nothing puts a dent in GDP quite like government replacing the free market.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #165 on: November 20, 2018, 05:21:34 pm »
A country of 320 million has a lot more cash flow than a country of 20 million. I don't think the population argument works. Bigger population = more taxes to work with. We are the richest country on Earth.

A smaller population with higher European tax rates is what allows socialized medicine to work in Europe and why it wouldn't work here.

Those European countries have high income taxes plus state and their equivalent of federal tax rates.  All used to fund their Socialist way of life.

Outside of our corporate rates we don't have the extremely high confiscatory tax rates that Europe does and that would be needed in a country of 320 million to have single payer healthcare.

Now if you want to crank up our tax rates in individual income to about 45% across the board and implement say a 19% VAT tax on all goods people buy like countries like Germany have...then it might work.


But at the end of the day what the liberals talk about and what people think they are hearing are completely different.

Liberals talk about health insurance coverage for everyone...not medical care for everyone.  Nowhere in what they say do they guarentee medical care for what ails you.  Even Obama brazenly admitted that during a speech.

And all people hear is "free" and they stop listening right there...and they miss the rest of what is being sold to them.

So you'll have health insurance...but that won't equate to getting treated in a timely manner if at all for what is wrong with you.

Got cancer and it's in Stage 3?  in America right now you'll get the best care possible by a cancer doc to rid you of the cancer and help you to live a long and fruitful life for however long that might be depending on your age.

In the Obamacare/Socialized Medicine world...it's cheaper to "manage" the disease by giving you medicines to ease your pain as the cancer ravages your body and kills you.



The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline Dexter

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #166 on: November 20, 2018, 05:24:53 pm »
Liberals talk about health insurance coverage for everyone...not medical care for everyone.  Nowhere in what they say do they guarentee medical care for what ails you.  Even Obama brazenly admitted that during a speech.

Obamacare is horrible, and also Obama would be considered pretty right wing in most European countries. Bernie is talking about medical care for everyone.
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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #167 on: November 20, 2018, 05:30:25 pm »
Obamacare is horrible, and also Obama would be considered pretty right wing in most European countries.

Obama is on the record as saying Obamacare is a stepping stone to the Liberals eventual goal of Single Payer government run healthcare.

Obama was only kept in check by a Republican House and Senate for 6 of his 8 years in office.  Otherwise the damage he'd have been to the left of most Socialist leaders in Europe.


Bernie is talking about medical care for everyone.
[/quote]

Of course he is...but he doesn't talk about the increase to the deficit...to the tune of 2.3 trillion dollars...it would add to already out of control federal spending.

Who's gonna pay for that?  As of 2016 every child born starts out with $42K in debt because of what we're spending today.

We're literally bankrupting our children and in my case grandchildren's future for feel good measures that actually take us backwards as a society like socialized medicine.

And the sad thing is young people these das think it's a right to have health insurance.

Show me where healthcare is a right.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 05:34:23 pm by txradioguy »
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #168 on: November 20, 2018, 05:35:36 pm »
Quote
Myth 3: It Would Provide Insurance Coverage to All

Champions of a single-payer emphasize that even with implementation of the Affordable Care Act, millions of Americans still lack health coverage—and they see single-payer as a solution. They argue that if the government created a single-payer option, similar to what Medicare today provides to people over the age of 65, all eligible Americans would have an insurance card. But the question is, What would be the value of that coverage in the future?

Healthcare costs are rising faster than our ability to pay and, as a result, prices are increasing in parallel at an accelerated rate. This is a fundamental business truism. Over time, price and cost must parallel each other. The drivers of cost inflation are drug prices rising at double-digit rates, new medical technology increasing expenditures on procedures, wages going up in response to labor shortages, and expensive regulatory requirements. Price controls in this environment can’t work.

Soon after implementation of a government-run, single-payer system, Congress would have to progressively increase taxes, reduce payments to doctors and hospitals or do both. The former won’t be palatable to the American people or the current Congress, and the latter will result in a two-tier system, with prolonged delays in access for those without added private coverage. This is what exists today in most countries that have implemented a government-run, single-payer system. We can get a glimpse of this by looking at the difference in care provided to the poor through Medicaid. Over time, if our nation tried this approach more broadly, that would become the experience of the middle class as well.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertpearl/2017/03/16/why-a-government-run-single-payer-healthcare-approach-is-doomed-to-fail/#28eca6f92d81
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #169 on: November 20, 2018, 05:38:11 pm »
Of course he is...but he doesn't talk about the increase to the deficit...to the tune of 2.3 trillion dollars...it would add to already out of control federal spending.

Who's gonna pay for that?  As of 2016 every child born starts out with $42K in debt because of what we're spending today.

We're literally bankrupting our children and in my case grandchildren's future for feel good measures that actually take us backwards as a society like socialized medicine.

And the sad thing is young people these das think it's a right to have health insurance.

Show me where healthcare is a right.

I simply don't believe these things are impossible to do efficiently somehow. I think conservatives aren't looking for those possibilities because they're simply not interested in the prospect. They don't want to have that conversation.



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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #170 on: November 20, 2018, 05:40:08 pm »
A country of 320 million has a lot more cash flow than a country of 20 million. I don't think the population argument works. Bigger population = more taxes to work with. We are the richest country on Earth.
Far more people take from health care than pay into it.

Most of socialized Europe does not have the wealth inequality that America, with barons like Jeff Bezos cornering whole sectors of the economy, has. To successfully pull off single-payer, it would take confiscatory tax rates on those barons, higher than even the rates in Europe, simply because there are fewer of them compared to how many would take advantage of the system.

Either that, or you'd have to ration access to the system. Much of rural America is already dangerously short on medical care, which is a real problem. Obamacare tried to force people into a system they'd rarely, if ever, be able to use.
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #171 on: November 20, 2018, 05:40:27 pm »
Show me where healthcare is a right.

It seems noble to want all people to have access to basic healthcare regardless of their income level. Being okay with people dying because they don't have enough money seems...wrong. I think we can do better than that.
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #172 on: November 20, 2018, 05:48:27 pm »
I simply don't believe these things are impossible to do efficiently somehow. I think conservatives aren't looking for those possibilities because they're simply not interested in the prospect. They don't want to have that conversation.

Conservatives are having that conversation with you right now.  And it's not because we aren't looking for the possibilities because we aren't interested in the prospect.  We are looking at the historical evidence as well as the practicalities of what is needed.  The Conservative approach on these threads has been to ask questions about problems that could (and will) arise.  And each and every time, you have abstained from addressing them.  So if here is anyone here who doesn't want to have the conversation, it is you.

You have been asked about maximizing tax revenue.  You have been asked about removing incentives to work.  You have been asked about current deficits, service shortfalls, monopoly inefficiency, the failures of current socialist systems, and even Bernie Sanders' own words.  And each and every time, you have refused to have the conversation. 

The ball is in your court.  Conservatives here have shown an eagerness to engage in conversation.  They have shown a willingness to discuss feasibility and implementation.  Why haven't you?
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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #173 on: November 20, 2018, 05:50:34 pm »
It seems noble to want all people to have access to basic healthcare regardless of their income level. Being okay with people dying because they don't have enough money seems...wrong. I think we can do better than that.
The high price of health care in America is driven by a shortage of it. Then, pile on the onerous cost of medical school which doctors then pass on the costs to their patients, and you realize the American system is built upon the premise of shortage.

Imposing a European system will only shift the costs to the government, which in turn passes those back to the people or into debt (which our country seems to be so adept at doing lately, but such luck probably won't last forever). It doesn't actually cut the obscene prices we have today, or increase access to doctors that are already overworked.

You can't guarantee basic access to a service commodity when there isn't enough of it to go around, and it is literally unconstitutional to force another person or entity to serve you in a medical capacity or otherwise.
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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #174 on: November 20, 2018, 05:54:05 pm »
Conservatives are having that conversation with you right now.  And it's not because we aren't looking for the possibilities because we aren't interested in the prospect.  We are looking at the historical evidence as well as the practicalities of what is needed.  The Conservative approach on these threads has been to ask questions about problems that could (and will) arise.  And each and every time, you have abstained from addressing them.  So if here is anyone here who doesn't want to have the conversation, it is you.

You have been asked about maximizing tax revenue.  You have been asked about removing incentives to work.  You have been asked about current deficits, service shortfalls, monopoly inefficiency, the failures of current socialist systems, and even Bernie Sanders' own words.  And each and every time, you have refused to have the conversation. 

The ball is in your court.  Conservatives here have shown an eagerness to engage in conversation.  They have shown a willingness to discuss feasibility and implementation.  Why haven't you?

@Hoodat

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And I’ve been working in the healthcare field for 30 years. And many government run healthcare programs such as Medicare and Medicaid have been already slashing benefits. In fact, if you’re on Medicare you better have private insurance if you want to get good care
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 05:56:08 pm by LMAO »
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