Author Topic: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party  (Read 21802 times)

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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #100 on: November 19, 2018, 09:46:39 PM »
The High Price of a Free College Education in Sweden

Swedish colleges and universities are free. Yep. Totally free.

But students there still end up with a lot of debt. The average at the beginning of 2013 was roughly 124,000 Swedish krona ($19,000).  .  .

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/05/the-high-price-of-a-free-college-education-in-sweden/276428/


And even with 'free' education, almost every Swedish student takes federal aid money.



If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #101 on: November 19, 2018, 09:46:56 PM »
You think Germany or Russia will invade Sweden without U.S forces present in Europe?

 :pondering:

Sooner or later, yes I do. History says Germany, more than likely.

I am not *for* paying for European defense. But neither am I blind to what will happen when those socialist countries have to pick up their own defense... The entire system will predictably collapse.

They are taxed far harder than we are, and adding defense to their bill will make all their theories in social engineering, intentionally teetering under a muslim invasion, utterly collapse. They cannot do both. It simply isn't feasible economically.

Get us out of it, and Britain out of it, and they are in trouble.

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #102 on: November 19, 2018, 09:49:57 PM »
@Dexter

Again, what happens when "the rich" decide that higher taxes have taken away their incentive to work, and they choose to stay at home instead?  Who's going to pay for all the free stuff then?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-

Offline Dexter

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #103 on: November 19, 2018, 09:50:43 PM »
Sooner or later, yes I do. History says Germany, more than likely.

I am not *for* paying for European defense. But neither am I blind to what will happen when those socialist countries have to pick up their own defense... The entire system will predictably collapse.

They are taxed far harder than we are, and adding defense to their bill will make all their theories in social engineering, intentionally teetering under a muslim invasion, utterly collapse. They cannot do both. It simply isn't feasible economically.

Get us out of it, and Britain out of it, and they are in trouble.

I really don't think Sweden will be invaded by Russia or Germany, but either way I think we shouldn't be spending billions on protecting Europe from possible invasions.
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #104 on: November 19, 2018, 09:54:59 PM »
The High Price of a Free College Education in Sweden

Swedish colleges and universities are free. Yep. Totally free.

But students there still end up with a lot of debt. The average at the beginning of 2013 was roughly 124,000 Swedish krona ($19,000).  .  .

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/05/the-high-price-of-a-free-college-education-in-sweden/276428/


And even with 'free' education, almost every Swedish student takes federal aid money.



Quote
According to the story, it’s because young people are expected to pay for things themselves instead of relying on their parents to contribute or take out loans. Unlike in the U.S., parent income is not taken into account when applying for college or financial aid. Rather, it’s based on the individual student’s income.

But what’s really noteworthy is that even though Swedish students graduate with relatively high levels of debt, they only have to put about 3.8% of their average monthly income toward the loans, according to one study. To contrast, depending on a student’s level of debt and monthly income here in the U.S., most students end up putting at least 15% of their income toward their monthly payments on the standard repayment plan.

So why is debt easier for students in Sweden to manage? For one thing, the interest rates on student loans are much lower. They’re set by the government and maintained through subsidies. And the standard length of repayment is longer that in the U.S.: 25 years or until the student turns 60.

https://www.collegefinancinggroup.com/student-loan-repayment/free-college-in-sweden-high-student-debt/
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #105 on: November 19, 2018, 09:56:45 PM »
@Dexter

Again, what happens when "the rich" decide that higher taxes have taken away their incentive to work, and they choose to stay at home instead?  Who's going to pay for all the free stuff then?

As Oceander pointed out there are lots of rich people in Sweden, and there's even more in other Scandinavian countries. I'm not really sure how Bernie reconciles the immigration thing though. Something tells me he didn't learn anything from the mistakes Sweden made.
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #106 on: November 19, 2018, 09:58:56 PM »
As Oceander pointed out there are lots of rich people in Sweden, and there's even more in other Scandinavian countries. I'm not really sure how Bernie reconciles the immigration thing though. Something tells me he didn't learn anything from the mistakes Sweden made.

You still didn't answer the question.  Again, what happens when "the rich" decide that higher taxes have taken away their incentive to work, and they choose to stay at home instead?  Who's going to pay for all the free stuff then?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-

Offline Dexter

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #107 on: November 19, 2018, 10:01:27 PM »
You still didn't answer the question.  Again, what happens when "the rich" decide that higher taxes have taken away their incentive to work, and they choose to stay at home instead?  Who's going to pay for all the free stuff then?

Driven people aren't going to give up because of higher taxes. It hasn't happened in the Scandinavian countries and it wouldn't happen here.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #108 on: November 19, 2018, 10:02:58 PM »
As Oceander pointed out there are lots of rich people in Sweden, and there's even more in other Scandinavian countries.

Rich people are not the point. There were always rich people in Russia too, and any other tyrannical country you might point to.

What is important is the middle class providing mobility between poverty and wealth.

Offline Dexter

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #109 on: November 19, 2018, 10:04:46 PM »
Rich people are not the point. There were always rich people in Russia too, and any other tyrannical country you might point to.

What is important is the middle class providing mobility between poverty and wealth.

Hard work is rewarded in Sweden. They have no homeless people and their middle class is strong. I've been there and my fiance was born there and spent most of her life there. I happen to be quite familiar with how things are in Sweden.

Do you think Sweden is tyrannical?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 10:05:21 PM by Dexter »
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #110 on: November 19, 2018, 10:04:53 PM »
I really don't think Sweden will be invaded by Russia or Germany

Them that don't know history are doomed to repeat it.
You are suffering from the illusion that modernity changes things. It does not.

Offline Dexter

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #111 on: November 19, 2018, 10:07:00 PM »
Them that don't know history are doomed to repeat it.
You are suffering from the illusion that modernity changes things. It does not.

Putin isn't an idiot. The EU has nukes and it will protect its Swedish ally. Also Germany is a much different place these days. They are very embarrassed and ashamed of their past.

Maybe the Russians wouldn't be so sore at us if we didn't think they're basically as bad as Hitler and the Nazis.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 10:08:58 PM by Dexter »
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #112 on: November 19, 2018, 10:08:47 PM »
Hard work is rewarded in Sweden. I've been there and my fiance was born there and spent most of her life there. I happen to be quite familiar with how things are in Sweden.

Do you think Sweden is tyrannical?

Not yet they aren't. But they will become so. 3rd-Way Socialism is a very young idea.
And by the numbers, it will fail, because it must. Over-taxation will lead to class-ism, and class will reduce to elite and peasant - Necessarily so, because the tax burden inevitably removes the middle.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #113 on: November 19, 2018, 10:09:48 PM »
Putin isn't an idiot. The EU has nukes and it will protect its Swedish ally. Also Germany is a much different place these days. They are very embarrassed and ashamed of their past.

Maybe the Russians wouldn't be so sore at us if we didn't think they're basically as bad as Hitler and the Nazis.

You are stone dead wrong.

Offline Dexter

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #114 on: November 19, 2018, 10:11:47 PM »
Not yet they aren't. But they will become so. 3rd-Way Socialism is a very young idea.
And by the numbers, it will fail, because it must. Over-taxation will lead to class-ism, and class will reduce to elite and peasant - Necessarily so, because the tax burden inevitably removes the middle.

There are no signs of that happening so far. According to the World Health Organization the Scandinavian countries are the happiest and healthiest on Earth. They've been doing what they're doing for a number of decades now.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 10:12:25 PM by Dexter »
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #115 on: November 19, 2018, 10:13:19 PM »
You are stone dead wrong.

Putin has nothing to gain by invading western Europe. The cost would be catastrophic for everybody.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #116 on: November 19, 2018, 10:14:28 PM »
There are no signs of that happening so far. According to the World Health Organization the Scandinavian countries are the happiest and healthiest on Earth. They've been doing what they're doing for a number of decades now.

So was Venezuela.

Socialism of any kind always looks great to start with.
But reality interferes.
And sooner or later, you run out of other people's money.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #117 on: November 19, 2018, 10:16:38 PM »
Putin has nothing to gain by invading western Europe. The cost would be catastrophic for everybody.

Like it wasn't a disaster the last time? Your thinking is very narrow - seeing only the here and now... and maybe a decade or two either way.

What happens when someone else ascends?

Offline Dexter

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #118 on: November 19, 2018, 10:19:33 PM »
So was Venezuela.

Socialism of any kind always looks great to start with.
But reality interferes.
And sooner or later, you run out of other people's money.

They've been doing this stuff for like 40+ years.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #119 on: November 19, 2018, 10:19:35 PM »
Driven people aren't going to give up because of higher taxes. It hasn't happened in the Scandinavian countries and it wouldn't happen here.

Yes, it will.

Offline Dexter

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #120 on: November 19, 2018, 10:20:46 PM »
What happens when someone else ascends?

He'd have to be an illogical lunatic to invade western Europe. If Russia puts somebody like that in power and gives them access to the nuclear arsenal we are in big trouble regardless of our presence in Europe.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #121 on: November 19, 2018, 10:21:05 PM »
My stance on immigration is likely far more conservative than yours is.

Don’t avoid the question.  The US is already too heterogeneous for Scandinavian style socialism.  How are you going to rectify that?  Camps?  Gas?  Firing squads?  Or maybe just Stalinesque famine pogroms?

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #122 on: November 19, 2018, 10:23:37 PM »
They've been doing this stuff for like 40+ years.

Right, and all of the variants of Communism and its whistle-stop, socialism, are not much older than that. 3rd way socialism will do exactly the same thing, because it must.

'Kinder, gentler socialism' is socialism all the same.

Offline Dexter

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #123 on: November 19, 2018, 10:24:54 PM »
Don’t avoid the question.  The US is already too heterogeneous for Scandinavian style socialism.  How are you going to rectify that?  Camps?  Gas?  Firing squads?  Or maybe just Stalinesque famine pogroms?

If I were in charge of everything I'd close the borders to all but the most productive people and kick out any immigrant that's a net loss to the cost of the federal government. I think that'd go a long way towards making it possible.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
« Reply #124 on: November 19, 2018, 10:26:30 PM »
He'd have to be an illogical lunatic to invade western Europe.

Which tyrant ever wasn't?

Quote
If Russia puts somebody like that in power and gives them access to the nuclear arsenal we are in big trouble regardless of our presence in Europe.

That is the ever-present threat of centralized power - The very same centralized power you are selling here... just to a lesser degree... Which will not remain a 'lesser degree'.


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