Author Topic: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis  (Read 19004 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Dexter

  • User banned for personal attacks. --CL
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,624
  • Gender: Male
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #75 on: November 19, 2018, 08:15:28 pm »
I do not agree that it is wise to produce vast numbers of devices or facilities which will not do the job at the expense of either industry which is getting the job done, or the average schmuck who is trying to feed their family.

That's not what I am saying we should do. Subsidizing solar companies so they can pump out shitty technology is stupid. I want the government to fund researchers that can improve the technology to the point that the free market actually wants to sell and buy it.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Offline Hoodat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 36,438
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #76 on: November 19, 2018, 08:17:08 pm »
I want the government to fund researchers that can improve the technology to the point that the free market actually wants to sell and buy it.

I want private industry to fund the researchers that can improve the technology.  That is what the free market does.

Government can't even figure out that people might want WiFi on Amtrak.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 08:18:19 pm by Hoodat »
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline Dexter

  • User banned for personal attacks. --CL
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,624
  • Gender: Male
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #77 on: November 19, 2018, 08:17:10 pm »
Well, we agree on something. Fund basic research, as the National Science Foundation has in the past, and let the commercial development proceed without subsidy.

YES! I am saying we should do more of that. Let's stop wasting so many funds on GARBAGE and fund science research.

"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Offline Dexter

  • User banned for personal attacks. --CL
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,624
  • Gender: Male
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #78 on: November 19, 2018, 08:19:58 pm »
I want private industry to fund the researchers that can improve the technology.

The technology will improve a lot faster if the government funds research too. Your way stifles the speed at which humanity becomes more advanced. To me the advancement of science and technology takes priority over almost everything. You are mistaken if you think the government is incapable of expediting the growth of technology.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 08:20:37 pm by Dexter »
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Online Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,137
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #79 on: November 19, 2018, 08:25:03 pm »
I want private industry to fund the researchers that can improve the technology.  That is what the free market does.

Government can't even figure out that people might want WiFi on Amtrak.

Obastard provided us with an explanation why Government should not be doing Alt Energy. How much did he waste by dumping dumptrucks of cash on his cronies at Solyndra, and other companies he favored.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Online Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,698
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #80 on: November 19, 2018, 08:25:15 pm »
That's not what I am saying we should do. Subsidizing solar companies so they can pump out shitty technology is stupid. I want the government to fund researchers that can improve the technology to the point that the free market actually wants to sell and buy it.
But that is not what has been happening. What has been happening is a subsidy for wind and solar, before those are ready for prime time.

Not only that, but there are other ways the playing field has been less than level. Endangered and protected species are not so protected in the vicinity of a mirror farm or windmill, for instance. https://www.livescience.com/31995-how-do-wind-turbines-kill-birds.html

By contrast, https://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2012/01/18/judge-throws-out-criminal-case-against-oil-companies-for-killing-birds-at-drilling-sites/ A few birds were found dead in 'reserve' pits and the government went whole hog against the oil companies involved, until the case was finally thrown out. There have been no such calls for imprisonment and fining of wind operators (or solar) like that of these individual oil company employees--and over far, far fewer birds than windfarms kill. 
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 08:25:55 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,137
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #81 on: November 19, 2018, 08:29:03 pm »
The technology will improve a lot faster if the government funds research too. Your way stifles the speed at which humanity becomes more advanced. To me the advancement of science and technology takes priority over almost everything. You are mistaken if you think the government is incapable of expediting the growth of technology.

Government can't help themselves, they politicize everything they touch.  The reason is simple:  Politicians are in the business of taking and distributing bribes.  I think the Government is incapable of expediting the growth of technology, and I am not mistaken.  I spent too many years in private sector R&D to fall for that Socialist crap.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Dexter

  • User banned for personal attacks. --CL
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,624
  • Gender: Male
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #82 on: November 19, 2018, 08:29:11 pm »
But that is not what has been happening. What has been happening is a subsidy for wind and solar, before those are ready for prime time.

Why are people attaching all of that to the statements I am making? That's stupid, and anybody that doesn't think so is either also stupid or hasn't given it adequate thought. If it wasn't already clear I want to make it known to everybody that I am not an Obama drone. I have my own take on these issues because I use my own brain rather than letting other people do my thinking for me.


"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Offline Dexter

  • User banned for personal attacks. --CL
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,624
  • Gender: Male
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #83 on: November 19, 2018, 08:30:52 pm »
I think the Government is incapable of expediting the growth of technology

Well, I hugely disagree. It might not be as efficient as private sector research, but it still gives us technology and information we didn't have before. Are you aware of how much technology has been produced by the military and NASA? Both of those are government funded.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Online Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,137
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #84 on: November 19, 2018, 08:36:52 pm »
Well, I hugely disagree. It might not be as efficient as private sector research, but it still gives us technology and information we didn't have before. Are you aware of how much technology has been produced by the military and NASA? Both of those are government funded.

"The military" is the lone exception to my opinion of Government run R&D, and that's because it's an issue of war (the military is just as prone to waste in peacetime).  It's interesting I didn't see you use the word "military" until now.

NASA was another potential exception, but the end of the Moon Flights happened, and it fell into the usual government pit of fraud, waste and abuse.  These are the great big, giant brains who thought it was just fine to launch a Space Shuttle with ice hanging off the bottom of the booster. 
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Online Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,698
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #85 on: November 19, 2018, 08:38:02 pm »
Why are people attaching all of that to the statements I am making? That's stupid, and anybody that doesn't think so is either also stupid or hasn't given it adequate thought. If it wasn't already clear I want to make it known to everybody that I am not an Obama drone. I have my own take on these issues because I use my own brain rather than letting other people do my thinking for me.
You clarified your statements by saying the government should fund some basic research.

I merely stated that in practice, our tax dollars put a lot of substandard hardware out there and made  some purveyors of such and contractors rich.

I didn't mention Obama, nor his multitude of minions, nor the groupthink that has overshadowed environmental issues.

Since the topic is the failure of science, I'm just pointing out that 800 lb gorilla in the room, that science will be used/abused/and even reported fraudulently for prestige, political gain, and profit.

We need to guard against that, and against the pep-rally/consensus/up-for-a-vote mentality that seems to give credence to that which is most useful politically and which gets the most airplay, rather than scrupulously and dispassionately examine both the methods, data (unedited, thankyouverymuch!), and means of reaching conclusions before we go off half-cocked and throw the weight of the treasury behind the deployment of systems which are unnecessary and/or not fully developed.

Such corner cutting is only justifiable in times of genuine crisis, if then. 
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Dexter

  • User banned for personal attacks. --CL
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,624
  • Gender: Male
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #86 on: November 19, 2018, 08:40:33 pm »
"The military" is the lone exception to my opinion of Government run R&D, and that's because it's an issue of war (the military is just as prone to waste in peacetime).  It's interesting I didn't see you use the word "military" until now.

NASA was another potential exception, but the end of the Moon Flights happened, and it fell into the usual government pit of fraud, waste and abuse.  These are the great big, giant brains who thought it was just fine to launch a Space Shuttle with ice hanging off the bottom of the booster.

The government is capable of expediting the growth of technology. The idea that it's not just isn't practical. I'm not saying there's not waste involved.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Offline Dexter

  • User banned for personal attacks. --CL
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,624
  • Gender: Male
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #87 on: November 19, 2018, 08:42:36 pm »
We need to guard against that

The integrity of scientific research absolutely needs to be safeguarded. We are in complete agreement. We can't just give up on the government's ability to do research though. There's too much potential there for expediting the growth of humanity. We can do better than this.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Online Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,698
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #88 on: November 19, 2018, 08:46:17 pm »
The government is capable of expediting the growth of technology. The idea that it's not just isn't practical. I'm not saying there's not waste involved.
The government (sometimes) can expedite the development, the growth is and should be a market factor (even if the government is the purchaser of the tech). Development of the technology happens in University engineering departments, industry labs, and even garages and basements.
Let industry chase a profit, though, and the best minds will be on the problem, emphasis will be on the most promising leads, and the development from concept to viable product will be quick, relatively speaking.

If subsidies are offered for the deployment (growth, not development) of that technology, there will be those who chase that profit by being 'firstest with the mostest' in the marketplace, rather than ensure they have the most competitive product, and development will suffer as a result.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Hoodat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 36,438
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #89 on: November 19, 2018, 09:06:02 pm »
Are you aware of how much technology has been produced by the military and NASA? Both of those are government funded.

What economic breakthrough has been achieved because of technology produced by NASA or DOD?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,127
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #90 on: November 19, 2018, 09:06:24 pm »
The government (sometimes) can expedite the development, the growth is and should be a market factor (even if the government is the purchaser of the tech). Development of the technology happens in University engineering departments, industry labs, and even garages and basements.
Let industry chase a profit, though, and the best minds will be on the problem, emphasis will be on the most promising leads, and the development from concept to viable product will be quick, relatively speaking.

If subsidies are offered for the deployment (growth, not development) of that technology, there will be those who chase that profit by being 'firstest with the mostest' in the marketplace, rather than ensure they have the most competitive product, and development will suffer as a result.

My avatar shows the national debt in stacks of $100 bills.  If you look very closely under the crane you can see the Statue of Liberty.

Online Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,137
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #91 on: November 19, 2018, 09:07:29 pm »
The government is capable of expediting the growth of technology. The idea that it's not just isn't practical. I'm not saying there's not waste involved.

And I maintain that if it was once capable, it is no longer in today's environment of Socialists politicizing everything they touch.  Manhattan Project during WW2:  Great example of government being capable of innovating.  Solyndra:  Great example of how that innovation can be turned into a fat piggybank for political cronies. 

Alluding to the original topic (remember that?), the government corrupted science in order to advance Socialism, and now that they've done that, you'd have to be a fool to trust them to develop real technology.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Dexter

  • User banned for personal attacks. --CL
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,624
  • Gender: Male
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #92 on: November 19, 2018, 09:11:23 pm »
And I maintain that if it was once capable, it is no longer in today's environment of Socialists politicizing everything they touch.  Manhattan Project during WW2:  Great example of government being capable of innovating.  Solyndra:  Great example of how that innovation can be turned into a fat piggybank for political cronies. 

I think the government is still capable of doing real research. Giving up on that would be a complete disaster. It's unacceptable.

Quote
the original topic (remember that?)

Good discussions almost always evolve far beyond what was originally put forth.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 09:12:16 pm by Dexter »
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Offline GrouchoTex

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,382
  • Gender: Male
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #93 on: November 19, 2018, 09:13:07 pm »
What economic breakthrough has been achieved because of technology produced by NASA or DOD?

The orange drink TANG comes to mind......

Velcro?

Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,127
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #94 on: November 19, 2018, 09:16:26 pm »
What economic breakthrough has been achieved because of technology produced by NASA or DOD?

What economic breakthroughs did we miss out on because of all the things our government(s) waste money on?

For all we know we got Tang and velcro for the low, low, cost of cold fusion.
My avatar shows the national debt in stacks of $100 bills.  If you look very closely under the crane you can see the Statue of Liberty.

Offline Dexter

  • User banned for personal attacks. --CL
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,624
  • Gender: Male
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #95 on: November 19, 2018, 09:20:23 pm »
The free market will never undertake research and development, or ANYTHING really, unless it's profitable in the near future, but sometimes things are still worth doing even if they aren't currently profitable. That's where the government can be useful. Exploration comes to mind. What private business is going to pay big money for space exploration they have no way of profiting off of? Thinking everything should be handled by the private sector is short-sighted.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 09:26:48 pm by Dexter »
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,127
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #96 on: November 19, 2018, 09:25:54 pm »
Stratolaunch, Blue Origin, SpaceX
My avatar shows the national debt in stacks of $100 bills.  If you look very closely under the crane you can see the Statue of Liberty.

Offline Dexter

  • User banned for personal attacks. --CL
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,624
  • Gender: Male
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #97 on: November 19, 2018, 09:28:24 pm »
Stratolaunch, Blue Origin, SpaceX

Elon Musk isn't going to do what NASA does (or should do). He's developing things that will make him money. When the goal is money rather than scientific discovery it limits the scope. The government is useful when the benefits of research are a generation away, because no private business is going to spend a bunch of money on that.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 09:29:09 pm by Dexter »
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Online Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,137
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #98 on: November 19, 2018, 09:34:18 pm »
Elon Musk isn't going to do what NASA does (or should do). He's developing things that will make him money. When the goal is money rather than scientific discovery it limits the scope. The government is useful when the benefits of research are a generation away, because no private business is going to spend a bunch of money on that.

OK, let's just give up and let the politicians politicize the rest of the sciences they haven't already corrupted.  I don't give a crap why Musk did what he did, BTW.  I'm just glad he shot that car into space.  He did it for "profit."  BFD.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 09:35:06 pm by Cyber Liberty »
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Dexter

  • User banned for personal attacks. --CL
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,624
  • Gender: Male
Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #99 on: November 19, 2018, 09:39:09 pm »
OK, let's just give up and let the politicians politicize the rest of the sciences they haven't already corrupted.

Maybe if our country was more of a meritocracy and actual scientists had more control over matters related to science things wouldn't be so screwed up. I won't give up on the potential government has for expediting technological growth. It's too important.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 09:39:57 pm by Dexter »
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates