After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis

[GrouchoTex]

They have different priorities than we do. I haven't seen that documentary but I have talked to hundreds of Swedes, and I've spent time in their country and within their culture. I promise you they will never stop doing everything they can to elevate the average Swede. Their level of nationalism and pride is truly astounding and commendable.

You're moving the goalpost.
I can show you evidence where the Swedes, once very wealthy, got to the point to were that had to dial back the Socialist programs they'd enacted in order to remain solvent, and you change the subject to national pride.
Are we talking about economic sustainability of love of country?
Make up your mind.

[Dexter]

You're moving the goalpost.
I can show you evidence where the Swedes, once very wealthy, got to the point to were that had to dial back the Socialist programs they'd enacted in order to remain solvent, and you change the subject to national pride.
Are we talking about economic sustainability of love of country?
Make up your mind.

They love their country and its economic priorities. My fiance's mom is actually quite wealthy and she has no issue with her tax rate. She loves that there are no homeless in Sweden and that people that need help get help. Maybe at some point they had to dial something back (can you be specific?) but they'll never reverse course on their social priorities. Swedes would think you're nuts if you went over there and started talking about dismantling their healthcare system and social safety nets.

Your post is trying to give the impression that their way isn't working, but that's not really true. I'm sure they've had to make adjustments, but yeah, they're not changing the way they do things because they love how they do things and it is working (other than the immigration screw up). It's the same or a similar story in other Scandinavian countries.

[Hoodat]

They love their country and its economic priorities. My fiance's mom is actually quite wealthy and she has no issue with her tax rate.

That would be because there is no tax on wealth.  "The rich" don't get taxed.  It is the people working hard to become rich who get taxed.  So keep that in mind the next time you hear someone such as yourself repeating that same lie about taxing the rich to pay for your free stuff.  It is income that gets taxed - not wealth.

Which brings us back again to the same question.  What happens to Bernie's plan when "the rich" decide that their incentive to work has been taken away through exorbitant taxation, and they decide to stay home and enjoy the wealth they have already accumulated?  What then?  Who's going to pay for your 'free stuff' when that happens?

It's not a difficult question.  Yet for some reason you continue to avoid it.

[Cyber Liberty]

That would be because there is no tax on wealth.  "The rich" don't get taxed.  It is the people working hard to become rich who get taxed.  So keep that in mind the next time you hear someone such as yourself repeating that same lie about taxing the rich to pay for your free stuff.  It is income that gets taxed - not wealth.

Which brings us back again to the same question.  What happens to Bernie's plan when "the rich" decide that their incentive to work has been taken away through exorbitant taxation, and they decide to stay home and enjoy the wealth they have already accumulated?  What then?  Who's going to pay for your 'free stuff' when that happens?

It's not a difficult question.  Yet for some reason you continue to avoid it.

I imagine the Socialists will just go to their tried and true system of extracting blood from the wealth turnip:  Inflate the living crap out of the currency until accumulated wealth is rendered worthless.

[Hoodat]

Dexter,  I am guessing that you recently finished college, and that you are now facing a sizeable student loan debt that is charging 6.78% interest.  If this is the case, you have my sympathy.  And you also have someone who argued bitterly against those government bureaucrats who took over the student loan industry in order to "help" students.  (Bernie Sanders was one of them).  Just to give you a full picture, the interest on my student loans which were incurred before Obama took office were a paltry 2.32%.  This was due to a competitive market where many lenders were competing for my business.  Now that Big Brother Socialism has taken over, students are stuck with a government monopoly that sets the rate at 6.78%.  Furthermore, that same government must now incur more debt because it now has to come up with the funds for your college instead of leaving it up to the banks.

So yes, I would be bitter too.  But socialism is at fault here.  Socialism is to blame.  So ask yourself, would you prefer the free market 2.32% rate that I paid?  Or do you prefer the 6.78% rate that socialism dictates?

[Dexter]

That would be because there is no tax on wealth.  "The rich" don't get taxed.  It is the people working hard to become rich who get taxed.  So keep that in mind the next time you hear someone such as yourself repeating that same lie about taxing the rich to pay for your free stuff.  It is income that gets taxed - not wealth.

Which brings us back again to the same question.  What happens to Bernie's plan when "the rich" decide that their incentive to work has been taken away through exorbitant taxation, and they decide to stay home and enjoy the wealth they have already accumulated?  What then?  Who's going to pay for your 'free stuff' when that happens?

It's not a difficult question.  Yet for some reason you continue to avoid it.

She's not that wealthy, and I guess I used the word "wealth" wrong because I wasn't thinking about it. She makes good money but she works damn hard for it.

[Dexter]

It's not a difficult question.  Yet for some reason you continue to avoid it.

Driven people aren't going to stop being driven because of a higher tax rate. I don't answer the question because I already answered it and I just disagree with what's implied.

[Hoodat]

I imagine the Socialists will just go to their tried and true system of extracting blood from the wealth turnip:  Inflate the living crap out of the currency until accumulated wealth is rendered worthless.

This is true.  However, the truly wealthy have various means of protecting the value of their wealth that are not available to the rest of us.  So in the end, the wealthy remain wealthy while those of us working our butts off to save and get ahead end up getting screwed.  It is a middle class tax increase that Congress never voted for.

Of course in the end, the socialists will eventually go after the wealth (provided that there are safeguards in place to protect their own).  Good little socialists like the fresh NY Congresswoman will be able to complain about how they weren't able to collect their $180,000 salaries months before they actually started working while at the same time championing the proletariat by artificially driving up the costs of their education and health care.

[Hoodat]

Driven people aren't going to stop being driven because of a higher tax rate. I don't answer the question because I already answered it and I just disagree with what's implied.

Let's think about this for a moment.  Are you really saying that people will continue to work even if their tax rate is 100%?

[Dexter]

Are you really saying that people will continue to work even if their tax rate is 100%?

Are you really saying you think the tax rate in Sweden will ever be 100%? Are you really saying Bernie wants the tax rate to be 100%? You're making unrealistic assumptions.

[GrouchoTex]

They love their country and its economic priorities. My fiance's mom is actually quite wealthy and she has no issue with her tax rate. She loves that there are no homeless in Sweden and that people that need help get help. Maybe at some point they had to dial something back (can you be specific?) but they'll never reverse course on their social priorities. Swedes would think you're nuts if you went over there and started talking about dismantling their healthcare system and social safety nets.

Your post is trying to give the impression that their way isn't working, but that's not really true. I'm sure they've had to make adjustments, but yeah, they're not changing the way they do things because they love how they do things and it is working (other than the immigration screw up). It's the same or a similar story in other Scandinavian countries.

Their 2 tax methods are a flat income (not wealth) tax and a VAT (consumption) tax.
This is new, and wasn't the case as before.
Bernie's type of tax the wealthy scheme did not work, and it had to change.
That way did not work and I am correct about this.

Why do you keep saying I am talking about dismantling their healthcare, etc....?

[GrouchoTex]

Are you really saying you think the tax rate in Sweden will ever be 100%? Are you really saying Bernie wants the tax rate to be 100%? You're making unrealistic assumptions.

I am saying that before, Sweden actually had tax at a rate of 104%!
Yes, 104%, this is not a typo.
There is a Swedish children's author, who was been a proponent of their previous attempt at Socialism, who wrote an article about how they could not sustain this.
She was one of those who was tax at 104%.

[Hoodat]

Are you really saying you think the tax rate in Sweden will ever be 100%? Are you really saying Bernie wants the tax rate to be 100%? You're making unrealistic assumptions.

Unrealistic assumptions?  YOU are the one saying that "Driven people aren't going to stop being driven because of a higher tax rate".  So based on that, why wouldn't Sweden raise its tax rate to 100%?  According to you, they would continue to work.  Right?

[Dexter]

Why do you keep saying I am talking about dismantling their healthcare, etc....?

In the end that's all Bernie and his crowd are really asking for. They want a national healthcare system and they want a public option for college. I really don't think they'd be too picky about how that was made possible. If Republicans came to the table and said "Well it won't work this way, but maybe if we etc etc." they'd be ecstatic.

[Dexter]

Unrealistic assumptions?  YOU are the one saying that "Driven people aren't going to stop being driven because of a higher tax rate".  So based on that, why wouldn't Sweden raise its tax rate to 100%?  According to you, they would continue to work.  Right?

You took my statement to an extreme that is unrealistic. I never said driven people won't stop be driven if they have no opportunities to elevate themselves as individuals. They won't raise it to 100% because that would be absurd and it wouldn't work. Nobody is talking about raising the tax rate to 100%. I don't feel like you're arguing honestly. You know that's not what I'm talking about.

[Hoodat]

In the end that's all Bernie and his crowd are really asking for. They want a national healthcare system

I take it that there will be some sort of medical set-aside for Bernie and his ilk similar to what they had for Communist Party members in the USSR, and that Bernie won't have to wait 11 months for an MRI like the rest of us.

[Dexter]

I take it that there will be some sort of medical set-aside for Bernie and his ilk similar to what they had for Communist Party members in the USSR, and that Bernie won't have to wait 11 months for an MRI like the rest of us.

There are still private doctors in Europe for people with more money. Also there are horror stories in every medical system if you're willing to look for them. Nothing works perfectly, but European healthcare is absolutely not as low quality as a lot of conservatives think. They are very healthy and there is a high approval rating when it comes to healthcare.

[Dexter]

I am saying that before, Sweden actually had tax at a rate of 104%!
Yes, 104%, this is not a typo.

Can you show me a reliable source? I've never heard that.

[Hoodat]

You took my statement to an extreme that is unrealistic. I never said driven people won't stop be driven if they have no opportunities to elevate themselves as individuals.

This is my exact point.  If you take away their ability to elevate themselves as individuals, they will stop creating wealth.

They won't raise it to 100% because that would be absurd and it wouldn't work.

They won't raise it to 100% because they know that they will collect zero revenue with a rate that high - something which you are hesitant to admit.

Nobody is talking about raising the tax rate to 100%. I don't feel like you're arguing honestly. You know that's not what I'm talking about.

OK, then how about 95%?  If you raise it to 95%, will every single one of these same driven people continue to work just as hard as they would if the rate was only 5%?

My point is that if you take away the incentive to work, people will stop working.  I mentioned yesterday one of the major flaws of socialist ideology.  Socialists argue that man has an inherent need to work.  This premise is absolutely false.  Man does not have an inherent need to work.  Man has an inherent need to be rewarded for his work.  Which is why capitalism is such a huge success at creating wealth while socialism is an abject failure.

[Hoodat]

There are still private doctors in Europe for people with more money.

So what is there for those of us without more money, and who now have even less of it because our taxes just went up?

[Dexter]

This is my exact point.  If you take away their ability to elevate themselves as individuals, they will stop creating wealth.


They won't raise it to 100% because they know that they will collect zero revenue with a rate that high - something which you are hesitant to admit.


OK, then how about 95%?  If you raise it to 95%, will every single one of these same driven people continue to work just as hard as they would if the rate was only 5%?

My point is that if you take away the incentive to work, people will stop working.  I mentioned yesterday one of the major flaws of socialist ideology.  Socialists argue that man has an inherent need to work.  This premise is absolutely false.  Man does not have an inherent need to work.  Man has an inherent need to be rewarded for his work.  Which is why capitalism is such a huge success at creating wealth while socialism is an abject failure.

The incentive to work has not been removed in capitalist Sweden. Bernie and his followers are ignorant about immigration, but other than that all they're asking for is a public option for college and healthcare. They don't want to destroy capitalism and bring on totalitarian socialism. They don't want to lose their ability to buy homes and private property. Of the minority of people on the left that say they want to end capitalism, 99% of those are children speaking from a position of ignorance. They lack the ability to properly articulate what they're asking for. Literal socialism doesn't work, and anybody with a brain knows that.

[Dexter]

So what is there for those of us without more money, and who now have even less of it because our taxes just went up?

Their public healthcare system is pretty good despite what you might read from right leaning information outlets. There are always horror stories and people that slip through the cracks in every system. It happens here too. If their public healthcare option was that bad it wouldn't have a 90% or higher approval rating in a lot of European countries.

[GrouchoTex]

Can you show me a reliable source? I've never heard that.

It is in an essay written by Istrid Lindgren, author of Pippi Longstockings.
It is also referenced in the documentary that I had mentioned earlier.
Slight correction:
102%, not 104%.

[Sanguine]

You're making a mistake in assuming I want to do everything Bernie says. I just happen to think he's a good guy. Also I'm more than willing to consider the things you say to me about economics. I might not see it your way when you're done, but I'll respectfully listen and honestly consider the things you've said.

Bernie Sanders a good guy?  The guy whose first regular paycheck was when he got elected to public office?  The guy who wrote violent porn for publication?  Whose wife just went to trial over a scam land deal?  (She did get acquitted in what most would say should have been a slam-dunk conviction.)  The guy who has gotten rich as a public servant?  That guy?  What is it you like about him?

[Hoodat]

The incentive to work has not been removed in capitalist Sweden.

For many, it has.  Quite a few have done the math and figured that there is a much greater incentive to do what they do in the United States instead of doing it in Sweden.  So those individuals no longer contribute to the "free stuff" fund.

Sure, there are a number of people who continue to work despite a 61% tax rate.  But that number would be much higher if that rate were only 25%.  Your goal should be to maximize tax revenue.  Yet you seem completely oblivious to the elasticity of tax rates, and equally oblivious to the fact that there is a revenue ceiling relative to GDP.

Bernie and his followers .  .  . all they're asking for is a public option for college and healthcare.

Right now, the US is not able to pay for all the 'free stuff' that we are currently giving away.  Think about this for a moment.  Every single dollar paid in personal income taxes does not cover the amount of money given out to other citizens residents as direct cash payments.  So the government prints up new dollars to cover the difference, thus stealing wealth from anyone holding dollars.  And this is all happening at a time where federal tax revenues are at an all-time high.  Knowing that, how do you propose we pay for even more 'free stuff'?

They don't want to destroy capitalism and bring on totalitarian socialism.

Actually, they do want socialism, but they want capitalists to pay for it.

Of the minority of people on the left that say they want to end capitalism, 99% of those are children speaking from a position of ignorance. They lack the ability to properly articulate what they're asking for.

And Bernie Sanders is their champion.

Literal socialism doesn't work, and anybody with a brain knows that.

Then explain it to me.  Explain why socialism doesn't work.  Because if you really believed that, you wouldn't be calling for government monopolization of the health care industry - the same type of monopolization that has drastically driven up the cost of acquiring student loans.