After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis

[Hoodat]

I also think there are uses for the government when it comes to discovery.

What is your basis for thinking this?  Likewise, what is your basis for thinking that humans cause global warming?   I ask because you seem to have made up your mind about both of these things without having any evidence to support it.  Have you ever considered that you may have made a logical mistake?

[Dexter]

What is your basis for thinking this? 

I've explained why I believe that probably half a dozen times.

Likewise, what is your basis for thinking that humans cause global warming?   I ask because you seem to have made up your mind about both of these things without having any evidence to support it.  Have you ever considered that you may have made a logical mistake?

My stance on AGW is that I'm not a climate scientist. I'm not educated enough to have a position I'm comfortable with arguing for.

[Smokin Joe]

I will give you another one - The Freakin Spotted Owl. On the basis of ginned up 'science' the logging industry was stripped from the West.

What would make one think that the fed doesn't do exactly the same thing throughout the sciences?

Just consider the deleterious effects if the attempt to 'prove' fraccing was harmful to groundwater had been successful. The science was so bad on that the USGS (a government agency) refused to use data from the wells that had been drilled.

[roamer_1]

Just consider the deleterious effects if the attempt to 'prove' fraccing was harmful to groundwater had been successful. The science was so bad on that the USGS (a government agency) refused to use data from the wells that had been drilled.

But OMG, how they tried. And you can bet money, it will come up again.

[Hoodat]

I've explained why I believe that probably half a dozen times.

I have seen you repeat the premise a half dozen times.  But I have yet to see the evidence of success.

[Half Vast Conspiracy]

I went to college for 6 years. During that time I learned that I know a whole lot less than I once thought. I lack the ability to expertly examine and interpret things outside of my field of expertise. I am not a climate scientist. To me blowing off their opinions would be similar to blowing off the opinions of my physician. They could be wrong, but they have a certain weight behind their words because they do know more about these things than anybody else.

What is a "climate scientist"?  Much of the model building and interpretation is done by Data Scientists  I was interested enough to start an MS in Data Science.  I'll be done in March. 

So far, I know that it takes a lot of experience and finesse to build and interpret models.  And, the model is only useful when you have reliable data to put into it AND you have good target variables to use for model training and testing.

Usually, that's a BIG problem.

[Cyber Liberty]

Putting aside the profit motive for a moment, one should also consider the non-governmental non-profit agency which has also provided numerous technological advances - human stem cell research being one of them.  The non-governmental researchers have come up with over 70 cures that have been developed through adult stem cells.  And they have done so without any support or prodding from the government.

Compare that to government efforts where government has spent and spent and spent with one political objective in mind - to come up with a cure using embryonic stem cells.  And in that endeavor, they have come up empty.  Failure after failure after failure from government-driven research.  Success after success after success from the private sector. 

Extra step:  Why did the government researchers strive for a cure using embryonic stem cells, rejecting the adult cells?  Because they wanted an industrial use for the embryonic cells to justify (to the remaining people on the fence) the killing of millions of babies in abortions.

When a government is in charge, science will be bent to serve the warped desires of the state. 

Fer Chissakes.

[Oceander]

I've explained why I believe that probably half a dozen times.

My stance on AGW is that I'm not a climate scientist. I'm not educated enough to have a position I'm comfortable with arguing for.

So you simply defer to your betters?  And how do you determine who your betters are?

[Dexter]

So you simply defer to your betters?  And how do you determine who your betters are?

I at least consider what people more educated than me are saying about their field of expertise. You work in law, right? I'd consider your words weighty in a discussion about the law.

[Hoodat]

I at least consider what people more educated than me are saying about their field of expertise.

I happen to be more educated than Bernie Sanders in the field of economics.  Yet I don't see you willing to abandon the economic policy he advocates.  Go figure.

[Dexter]

I happen to be more educated than Bernie Sanders in the field of economics.  Yet I don't see you willing to abandon the economic policy he advocates.  Go figure.

You're making a mistake in assuming I want to do everything Bernie says. I just happen to think he's a good guy. Also I'm more than willing to consider the things you say to me about economics. I might not see it your way when you're done, but I'll respectfully listen and honestly consider the things you've said.

[Hoodat]

There's that old saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.  But in this case, we have 100 years of history to fall back on.  And in that history, the economic philosophy that Sanders advocates has led to the deaths of over 100 million people.

I don't characterize people who continue to advocate such a heinous philosophy in the face of overwhelming evidence  as "good".  So we can agree to disagree on that one.

Personally, I prefer capitalism, wealth creation, and full stomachs over a system that can't even produce enough food to feed its people.

[Dexter]

Personally, I prefer capitalism

So does Bernie according to his public positions. He wants us to emulate the Scandinavian countries. They are capitalist. If you're calling Bernie a literal communist/socialist you either have to believe he's lying about his positions or you're simply uninformed about them. He has never advocated for the removal of the private sector, which is a mandatory part of communism/socialism. These labels get so abused that people barely know what's what anymore.

[Oceander]

So does Bernie according to his public positions. He wants us to emulate the Scandinavian countries. They are capitalist. If you're calling Bernie a literal communist/socialist you either have to believe he's lying about his positions or you're simply uninformed about them. He has never advocated for the removal of the private sector, which is a mandatory part of communism/socialism. These labels get so abused that people barely know what's what anymore.

You say you’re not smart enough to take a position on AGW because you didn’t study climate science.  The same goes for political science, too. 

Bernie Sanders is in favor of capitalism the same way that Lenin was in favor of capitalism:  a stepping stone to the dictatorship of the proletariat.

[Dexter]

You say you’re not smart enough to take a position on AGW because you didn’t study climate science.  The same goes for political science, too. 

Bernie Sanders is in favor of capitalism the same way that Lenin was in favor of capitalism:  a stepping stone to the dictatorship of the proletariat.

I said I'm not educated enough to take a position on AGW. There's a difference.

You've made it clear that you're in the "Bernie is lying about what he actually wants." camp. You think he doesn't actually want to emulate the Scandinavian countries apparently. I see no reason to assume he's lying about what he wants.

[Hoodat]

So does Bernie according to his public positions.

Making "the rich" pay for everything (which is Bernie's public position) is NOT capitalism.

He wants us to emulate the Scandinavian countries.

So he wants 141 million Americans to get rid of their cars so that we can be more like Sweden?

If you're calling Bernie a literal communist/socialist you either have to believe he's lying about his positions or you're simply uninformed about them.

I call him a literal communist/socialist because he advocates communist/socialist policies.

“What being a socialist means is … that you hold out … a vision of society where poverty is absolutely unnecessary, where international relations are not based on greed … but on cooperation … where human beings can own the means of production and work together rather than having to work as semi-slaves to other people who can hire and fire.”

-Bernie Sanders, 1988

He has never advocated for the removal of the private sector, which is a mandatory part of communism/socialism.

What do you think 'Medicare for all' does?

[Dexter]

Making "the rich" pay for everything (which is Bernie's public position) is NOT capitalism.


So he wants 141 million Americans to get rid of their cars so that we can be more like Sweden?


I call him a literal communist/socialist because he advocates communist/socialist policies.


What do you think 'Medicare for all' does?

I'm not going to be able to convince you that Bernie is not advocating for literal communism/socialism with his public political positions so I'm not going to continue trying.

[Hoodat]

I'm not going to be able to convince you that Bernie is not advocating for literal communism/socialism with his public political positions so I'm not going to continue trying.

Bernie isn't advocating for the 'bad' socialism.  He is advocating for the 'good' socialism, just like every other leftist walking down the pike.  The only problem here is that socialism ignores human nature.  It assumes that people will produce for everyone else just as hard as they produce for themselves.  It assumes that people will take risks, suffer hardship, just to create something that will benefit humanity without reward.  And it assumes that there would never be a need to surround our borders with razor wire and concrete just to keep people from leaving.

As I said before, there is already a lengthy historical record for what Bernie Sanders advocates.  From the killing fields of Cambodia to Mao's Great Leap Forward, to the National Socialists of Germany, to the hyper-inflation of Robert Mugabe, to the failure at Jamestown in 1609, to the Euro-model which consistently lags behind the US, waiting patiently for the next American technological breakthrough to carry it through another decade, socialism is an utter failure, no matter how nice the person is advocating it.

So yet again, I ask you.  What happens when "the rich" decide they no longer want to create any more wealth.  Who's going to pay for all the free stuff then?

[GrouchoTex]

Obama foolishly wasted money in the wrong places, and what's worse is he managed to turn people like you off to the possibility that the government can do useful things.

This has been going on long before Obama.
My earliest memories, when I started to pay attention, was around the time of LBJ.
History has taught me it goes back as far as Wilson, and even to Teddy Roosevelt.
There are probably older examples than this, if I were to go back and take a closer look.

[GrouchoTex]

So does Bernie according to his public positions. He wants us to emulate the Scandinavian countries. They are capitalist. If you're calling Bernie a literal communist/socialist you either have to believe he's lying about his positions or you're simply uninformed about them. He has never advocated for the removal of the private sector, which is a mandatory part of communism/socialism. These labels get so abused that people barely know what's what anymore.

See the documentary "Sweden: Lessons for America?", by Johan Norberg.
It isn't what you would expect to see.
They've learned Socialism's lessons the hard way.
Ikea? They left Sweden, they couldn't make it there.
Have you seen a Saab lately?
Also, bear in mind that the population of Sweden is only 9.95 million as of 2017.
No, Scandinavian socialism is wrong, even for the Scandinavians.
It is something you won't hear on CNN.
This hour long documentary has been on PBS, and is played in private screenings around the US.

[Dexter]

See the documentary "Sweden: Lessons for America?", by Johan Norberg.
It isn't what you would expect to see.
They've learned Socialism's lessons the hard way.
Ikea? They left Sweden, they couldn't make it there.
Have you seen a Saab lately?
Also, bear in mind that the population of Sweden is only 9.95 million as of 2017.
No, Scandinavian socialism is wrong, even for the Scandinavians.
It is something you won't hear on CNN.
This hour long documentary has been on PBS, and is played in private screenings around the US.

Have you ever talked to people from Sweden about their country and how they feel about it? The vast majority of them love Sweden. Compare that to here where almost everybody is unhappy with the government. The only thing they've really had an issue with recently is the ridiculous decision to let a huge amount of poor people that don't speak the language into the country.

[Cyber Liberty]

This has been going on long before Obama.
My earliest memories, when I started to pay attention, was around the time of LBJ.
History has taught me it goes back as far as Wilson, and even to Teddy Roosevelt.
There are probably older examples than this, if I were to go back and take a closer look.

It goes back further for me too.  I had just used Obastard as a case in point, not "the one who turned me off my natural love of government."

[GrouchoTex]

Have you ever talked to people from Sweden about their country and how they feel about it? The vast majority of them love Sweden. Compare that to here where almost everybody is unhappy with the government.

The documentary wasn't made by an American, it was made by a Swede.
You can love your country, yet not trust its Federal government.
I think that would describe most people on this forum.
We've had a mistrust of the state all the way back to King George.
It's not a bad thing.
I think it is healthy to be skeptical.

[GrouchoTex]

It goes back further for me too.  I had just used Obastard as a case in point, not "the one who turned me off my natural love of government."

 

[Dexter]

The documentary wasn't made by an American, it was made by a Swede.
You can love your country, yet not trust its Federal government.
I think that would describe most people on this forum.
We've had a mistrust of the state all the way back to King George.
It's not a bad thing.
I think it is healthy to be skeptical.

They have different priorities than we do. I haven't seen that documentary but I have talked to hundreds of Swedes, and I've spent time in their country and within their culture. I promise you they will never stop doing everything they can to elevate the average Swede. Their level of nationalism and pride is truly astounding and commendable.