Author Topic: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis  (Read 18781 times)

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Offline Dexter

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #125 on: November 19, 2018, 10:43:33 pm »
Actually, technology is a rock. You can build with it, you can shape it into tools or use it as one. You can break it into little bits and extract things from it. Or you can knock your neighbor over the head with it.

It is neither good nor evil, in and of itself, it just is.

Now, how it is used is a different story. Much depends on who wields it.

Without technology I would have died as a baby, my brother too. My dad would have died in his 20s when he had to get his appendix removed, and then again in his 40s when he needed heart surgery. Without technology we wouldn't know how to read or write, and we wouldn't have an internet to express our thoughts to each other. We wouldn't be living in nice, warm houses with refrigerated food. Technology can be used for evil, but by and large it is the biggest boon that humanity has. Technology is everything.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #126 on: November 19, 2018, 10:48:13 pm »
That's objectively not true. Your comparison doesn't work.

Indeed, it does correlate .
The Federal Government is constitutionally mandated on what it can and cannot do.
Of course, it routinely oversteps it boundaries, and it fails every time it does so.
Every time.
Whether it be social reforms like Obamacare and welfare, or Science endeavors, it will become a large money pit, it will not go away, and the solution will always be to throw more money at it.
To say "They are spending our money, so they should spend it on something I want", is not a conservative argument.
You are not talking about a government too big, but that a big government that subsidizes what you want and taxes/penalizes that which you do not.

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #127 on: November 19, 2018, 10:48:58 pm »
Without technology I would have died as a baby, my brother too. My dad would have died in his 20s when he had to get his appendix removed, and then again in his 40s when he needed heart surgery. Without technology we wouldn't know how to read or write, and we wouldn't have an internet to express our thoughts to each other. We wouldn't be living in nice, warm houses with refrigerated food. Technology can be used for evil, but by and large it is the biggest boon that humanity has. Technology is everything.

Which is the EXACT reason the Federal Government should have no part of it.
They can reap the benefits of it, as we all do, but that's where their involvement should end.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 10:51:26 pm by GrouchoTex »

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #128 on: November 19, 2018, 10:54:29 pm »
Without technology I would have died as a baby, my brother too. My dad would have died in his 20s when he had to get his appendix removed, and then again in his 40s when he needed heart surgery. Without technology we wouldn't know how to read or write, and we wouldn't have an internet to express our thoughts to each other. We wouldn't be living in nice, warm houses with refrigerated food. Technology can be used for evil, but by and large it is the biggest boon that humanity has. Technology is everything.

(Looking around)

Who here has suggested we don't want technology?  You are engaging in fallacies again.  Nobody suggested doing away with it, or even slowing it.  What we object to is government creating research, then using its fudged results to try to force some Socialist crap down our throats.

If you continue to dance around and deny that point, then I'm finished here.  You went one fallacy too far, @Dexter**nononono*
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #129 on: November 19, 2018, 10:56:10 pm »
Which is the EXACT reason the Federal Government should have no part of it.
They can reap the benefits of it, as we all do, but that's where their involvement should end.

I find it hysterical his examples of life-saving technology were all done by the private sector.  Left to government, his rels would be dead and he would not exist.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #130 on: November 19, 2018, 11:00:15 pm »
I find it hysterical his examples of life-saving technology were all done by the private sector.  Left to government, his rels would be dead and he would not exist.

@Cyber Liberty
I like @Dexter, but if he truly stops and seriously thinks about it, he would realize that these life-saving technologies were not begun by the Government.
I would submit, as you do, that if Goverment had their heavy hand in it, it probably would not exist, or at best, be subpar.
The red tape alone would have choked the research to death


Offline Dexter

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #131 on: November 19, 2018, 11:12:12 pm »
(Looking around)

Who here has suggested we don't want technology?  You are engaging in fallacies again.  Nobody suggested doing away with it, or even slowing it.  What we object to is government creating research, then using its fudged results to try to force some Socialist crap down our throats.

If you continue to dance around and deny that point, then I'm finished here.  You went one fallacy too far, @Dexter**nononono*

I am suggesting that because technology benefits everybody it's worth doing everything we can to advance technology as quickly as possible.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline Dexter

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #132 on: November 19, 2018, 11:13:15 pm »
@Cyber Liberty
I like @Dexter, but if he truly stops and seriously thinks about it, he would realize that these life-saving technologies were not begun by the Government.
I would submit, as you do, that if Goverment had their heavy hand in it, it probably would not exist, or at best, be subpar.
The red tape alone would have choked the research to death

I was making a point about technology in general.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #133 on: November 19, 2018, 11:19:22 pm »
I prefer my technology non-socialized, thank you. 
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #134 on: November 19, 2018, 11:22:21 pm »
I am suggesting that because technology benefits everybody it's worth doing everything we can to advance technology as quickly as possible.

OK, one more:  The best way to ensure technology doesn't happen, or happens only for the well-connected, is to let governments get their filthy mitts on it.  I see you quoted Groucho...did you even read the post you quoted?

ETA:  I got my grammar tied up.  Fixed.  Apologies to anybody who already quoted me.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 11:25:47 pm by Cyber Liberty »
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Dexter

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #135 on: November 19, 2018, 11:34:03 pm »
OK, one more:  The best way to ensure technology doesn't happen, or happens only for the well-connected, is to let governments get their filthy mitts on it.  I see you quoted Groucho...did you even read the post you quoted?

I sincerely hope your views don't take control of these issues, because I think it would be a tragedy for humanity. I think your views would stifle our growth, and to me there isn't much that's worse than stifling the growth of humanity. We should be learning and discovering through every means possible.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 11:34:37 pm by Dexter »
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #136 on: November 19, 2018, 11:45:06 pm »
Obama foolishly wasted money in the wrong places, and what's worse is he managed to turn people like you off to the possibility that the government can do useful things.

Don't blame Obama for that.  Government has been doing a spectacular job at failure for centuries now.

Finding an example of the government doing something useful may prove as difficult as finding evidence that man causes global warming.
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Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #137 on: November 19, 2018, 11:50:14 pm »
Don't blame Obama for that.  Government has been doing a spectacular job at failure for centuries now.

Finding an example of the government doing something useful may prove as difficult as finding evidence that man causes global warming.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Burr#Duel_with_Alexander_Hamilton
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #138 on: November 19, 2018, 11:54:27 pm »
If the government can use my taxes to help a bunch of dumb/unproductive people then I certainly have no issue with it using taxes to expedite the growth of technology.

That's just it.  The government doesn't expedite the growth of technology.  It inhibits it.


I want us to be putting the rest of the world to shame. That's my kind of nationalism.

The greatest success at putting the rest of the world to shame occurs when government gets the hell out of the way.

The steam locomotive, the telegraph, the telephone, the internal combustion engine, radio, flight, rocketry, industrialization, semiconductors, processors, electronics, nanotechnology - all these occurred without government prodding or oversight.  They all were birthed from the private sector, products of the invisible hand.


If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #139 on: November 20, 2018, 12:31:48 am »
I am suggesting that because technology benefits everybody it's worth doing everything we can to advance technology as quickly as possible.
Well, we are, too. I think we have different solutions for the same problem, but I will ask you this:

What things does government do that are done more quickly, more thoroughly, more efficiently, and at lower cost than industry? I'm not including the things that industry is kept out of, but there are plenty of other things.

Nothing outside of Constitutional bounds.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Dexter

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #140 on: November 20, 2018, 12:33:31 am »
Well, we are, too. I think we have different solutions for the same problem, but I will ask you this:

What things does government do that are done more quickly, more thoroughly, more efficiently, and at lower cost than industry? I'm not including the things that industry is kept out of, but there are plenty of other things.

Nothing outside of Constitutional bounds.

Businesses aren't going to do things that don't lead to profit, but not everything worth doing is profitable in the near future. Sometimes it might never be profitable. The ability to be profitable or not is the only thing the private sector cares about. It can't be counted on to maximize our scientific output on its on.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #141 on: November 20, 2018, 12:34:46 am »
Obama foolishly wasted money in the wrong places, and what's worse is he managed to turn people like you off to the possibility that the government can do useful things.
LOL! I have watched government eff things up since my childhood. It killed the river I grew up on, and the long list of boondoggles definitely preceded Obama, although he made even Carter's Keystone cops gig look good.
Reagan had it right when he said the words which should strike fear into the hearts of Americans were "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you."
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #142 on: November 20, 2018, 12:40:03 am »
Businesses aren't going to do things that don't lead to profit, but not everything worth doing is profitable in the near future. Sometimes it might never be profitable. The ability to be profitable or not is the only thing the private sector cares about. It can't be counted on to maximize our scientific output on its on.
I think you grossly underestimate the real source of invention: ideas, individual ideas. When those individuals are allowed to pursue those ideas wonderful things can happen, like even the PC, and the software that runs it.

Now, not everything worth doing is profitable, and not everything profitable is worth doing (imho) but the beauty of it all is that sometimes things cross over into sectors where they are both. People don't develop technology in a smooth line, but by fits and starts, one gadget will make yet another possible, a semi permeable membrane will lead to a dialysis machine, etc. Just as underwear made the printing press a practical device (the rag linen was used in paper), the small inventions of today will propel technologies of tomorrow. Many of those will be the brainchild, not of a publish-or-perish think tank, but some guy who woke up with heartburn and an idea...

When was the last time the Government did anything which reaped a profit? (The IRS couldn't run a whorehouse in Nevada in the black, for pete's sake.)
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 12:42:45 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Dexter

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #143 on: November 20, 2018, 12:53:31 am »
I think you grossly underestimate the real source of invention: ideas, individual ideas. When those individuals are allowed to pursue those ideas wonderful things can happen, like even the PC, and the software that runs it.

Now, not everything worth doing is profitable, and not everything profitable is worth doing (imho) but the beauty of it all is that sometimes things cross over into sectors where they are both. People don't develop technology in a smooth line, but by fits and starts, one gadget will make yet another possible, a semi permeable membrane will lead to a dialysis machine, etc. Just as underwear made the printing press a practical device (the rag linen was used in paper), the small inventions of today will propel technologies of tomorrow. Many of those will be the brainchild, not of a publish-or-perish think tank, but some guy who woke up with heartburn and an idea...

When was the last time the Government did anything which reaped a profit? (The IRS couldn't run a whorehouse in Nevada in the black, for pete's sake.)

Maybe it's possible for the government to not hinder private sector innovation while also contributing to science and technology development in a meaningful way. People are pretty smart. I don't believe that's unattainable.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 12:54:43 am by Dexter »
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #144 on: November 20, 2018, 12:58:44 am »
Putting aside the profit motive for a moment, one should also consider the non-governmental non-profit agency which has also provided numerous technological advances - human stem cell research being one of them.  The non-governmental researchers have come up with over 70 cures that have been developed through adult stem cells.  And they have done so without any support or prodding from the government.

Compare that to government efforts where government has spent and spent and spent with one political objective in mind - to come up with a cure using embryonic stem cells.  And in that endeavor, they have come up empty.  Failure after failure after failure from government-driven research.  Success after success after success from the private sector. 

So this isn't always about someone having to have some profit motive before some innovation is discovered.  The computer mouse was invented in 1957 by a company that never made a dime off of it.  Yet it was discovered by the best and the brightest who are given free reign to put the human mind to work without the bondage of bureaucratic malaise.  It was discovered by those who recognize what liberty can achieve without the shackles of government.  Discovery just for the sake of discovery without concern for any greater good as defined by some mindless bureaucrat who doesn't even have the integrity to admit that there is no evidence to support man-made global warming.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline roamer_1

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #145 on: November 20, 2018, 01:03:28 am »
Compare that to government efforts where government has spent and spent and spent with one political objective in mind - to come up with a cure using embryonic stem cells.  And in that endeavor, they have come up empty.  Failure after failure after failure from government-driven research.  Success after success after success from the private sector. 

TRUE. And nothing proves it better than Global Warming, which is entirely driven by government grants steering science into what it wants to be true. THAT is the problem.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #146 on: November 20, 2018, 01:10:09 am »
TRUE. And nothing proves it better than Global Warming, which is entirely driven by government grants steering science into what it wants to be true. THAT is the problem.

Better watch out...he may declare he's hoping you don't get to decide.  You are a "Maladroit."  I'm already in the Deplorables.  I have a baseball cap to prove it.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Dexter

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #147 on: November 20, 2018, 01:17:45 am »
Better watch out...he may declare he's hoping you don't get to decide.  You are a "Maladroit."  I'm already in the Deplorables.  I have a baseball cap to prove it.

I take issue with some of your views, not you personally. Once two people reach an impasse there's not a whole lot left to say other than "I hope things go my way rather than your way."
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline Dexter

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #148 on: November 20, 2018, 01:20:00 am »
Putting aside the profit motive for a moment, one should also consider the non-governmental non-profit agency which has also provided numerous technological advances - human stem cell research being one of them.  The non-governmental researchers have come up with over 70 cures that have been developed through adult stem cells.  And they have done so without any support or prodding from the government.

Compare that to government efforts where government has spent and spent and spent with one political objective in mind - to come up with a cure using embryonic stem cells.  And in that endeavor, they have come up empty.  Failure after failure after failure from government-driven research.  Success after success after success from the private sector. 

So this isn't always about someone having to have some profit motive before some innovation is discovered.  The computer mouse was invented in 1957 by a company that never made a dime off of it.  Yet it was discovered by the best and the brightest who are given free reign to put the human mind to work without the bondage of bureaucratic malaise.  It was discovered by those who recognize what liberty can achieve without the shackles of government.  Discovery just for the sake of discovery without concern for any greater good as defined by some mindless bureaucrat who doesn't even have the integrity to admit that there is no evidence to support man-made global warming.

I think the private sector is magnificent when it comes to discovery. I also think there are uses for the government when it comes to discovery.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: After 50 Years Of Failed Predictions, Science Is In Crisis
« Reply #149 on: November 20, 2018, 01:20:07 am »
Better watch out...he may declare he's hoping you don't get to decide.  You are a "Maladroit."  I'm already in the Deplorables.  I have a baseball cap to prove it.

I will give you another one - The Freakin Spotted Owl. On the basis of ginned up 'science' the logging industry was stripped from the West.

What would make one think that the fed doesn't do exactly the same thing throughout the sciences?