Author Topic: How much of your money should the government take?  (Read 9798 times)

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Offline Dexter

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #125 on: November 09, 2018, 12:04:19 pm »
So basically you're all in agreement that to fix public education we need to relinquish power to the states? I would agree to that completely as long as the states agreed to a mandate from the Federal government that explicitly states that all children that are citizens of this country must get a k-12 education. If a state fails to provide what is agreed upon the Fed would step in to ensure that no small children are being deprived of an education. Would you all agree to that if it went to congress?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 12:06:51 pm by Dexter »
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #126 on: November 09, 2018, 12:15:55 pm »
So basically you're all in agreement that to fix public education we need to relinquish power to the states? I would agree to that completely as long as the states agreed to a mandate from the Federal government that explicitly states that all children that are citizens of this country must get a k-12 education. If a state fails to provide what is agreed upon the Fed would step in to ensure that no small children are being deprived of an education. Would you all agree to that if it went to congress?

@Dexter
There is no authority in the Constitution for the Federal government to mandate a damn thing to the states wrt education. Period.

Why are you so afraid to let folks live their lives the way they are supposed to without the intervention of a nanny state? Federalism dictates fifty experiments, not one. Fifty ways. Are you so sure of one-size-fits-all that you would refuse them that liberty, knowing that they will each respectively see how those experiments work out, and adopt for themselves the best methods?

There are many ways to skin a cat. How are you so sure you know the only one?

Offline Dexter

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #127 on: November 09, 2018, 12:21:08 pm »
There is no authority in the Constitution for the Federal government to mandate a damn thing to the states wrt education.

If the mandate is unacceptable then me and a majority of the country will never budge on this, EVER.


Why are you so afraid to let folks live their lives the way they are supposed to without the intervention of a nanny state?

Children shouldn't miss vital opportunity because of crappy parenting. Without a mandate and a public option a lot of bad parents would ruin the lives of their children. I simply will never get behind that.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 12:27:59 pm by Dexter »
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Offline Axeslinger

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #128 on: November 09, 2018, 12:35:32 pm »
So basically you're all in agreement that to fix public education we need to relinquish power to the states? I would agree to that completely as long as the states agreed to a mandate from the Federal government that explicitly states that all children that are citizens of this country must get a k-12 education. If a state fails to provide what is agreed upon the Fed would step in to ensure that no small children are being deprived of an education. Would you all agree to that if it went to congress?
@Dexter
As a step in the right direction, I would agree to that IF the fedgov ALSO has NO say in defining that K-12 education.   They cannot have any means to squash homeschooling or be able to subvert what State A or State B is teaching.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 12:36:27 pm by Axeslinger »
"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Dexter

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #129 on: November 09, 2018, 12:36:25 pm »
Also most child abuse gets noticed and reported through public school. A lot more children would suffer with horrible people without a mandated public option.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline Dexter

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #130 on: November 09, 2018, 12:37:38 pm »
@Dexter
As a step in the right direction, I would agree to that IF the fedgov ALSO has NO say in defining that K-12 education.   They cannot have any means to squash homeschooling or be able to subvert what State A or State B is teaching.

Would you agree that there should at least be certain comprehension standards? Like a 12 year old should understand how to read decently and do some math.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #131 on: November 09, 2018, 12:38:06 pm »
If the mandate is unacceptable then me and a majority of the country will never budge on this, EVER.


Knock yourselves out. I don't give a shit what you do in your own back yard. It doesn't give you the right to coerce me to do the same. That's the thing with liberals... Never content to mind their own business and let folks be. Always have to stick their noses in where they don't belong.

How the hell do you know what's good for a kid in Montana?

Quote
Children shouldn't miss vital opportunity because of crappy parenting. Without a mandate and a public option a lot of bad parents would ruin the lives of their children. I simply will never get behind that.

That presupposes that YOU are the arbiter of what a good education is. That presupposes that the feral government best knows and can dictate from three thousand miles away. That is as unamerican as it comes.

You have no business here (MT). Leave me and mine alone. WE know best the way we should go. Not you, and certainly not the feds.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #132 on: November 09, 2018, 12:39:46 pm »
Would you agree that there should at least be certain comprehension standards? Like a 12 year old should understand how to read decently and do some math.

Don't you think that a free and sovereign state is capable of making that standard?

Offline Dexter

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #133 on: November 09, 2018, 12:41:43 pm »
You have no business here (MT). Leave me and mine alone. WE know best the way we should go. Not you, and certainly not the feds.

You cannot function well in the 21st century without at least a basic education. Some parents would seriously screw up the life potential of their children.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline Dexter

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #134 on: November 09, 2018, 12:43:44 pm »
Don't you think that a free and sovereign state is capable of making that standard?

How is a sovereign state going to enforce that standard without a public option for children?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 12:44:17 pm by Dexter »
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #135 on: November 09, 2018, 12:46:29 pm »
You cannot function well in the 21st century without at least a basic education. Some parents would seriously screw up the life potential of their children.

Not any more than they do now. We have fallen from the top of the education heap to what now, 28th?

1. 32 million adults can not read in the United States equal to 14% of the population.
2. 21% of US adults read below the 5th grade level.
3. 19% of high school graduates can not read.
4. 85% of juveniles who interact with the juvenile court system are considered functionally illiterate.
5. 70% of inmates in America’s prisons can not read above the fourth grade level.
https://brandongaille.com/us-literacy-rate-and-illiteracy-statistics/

Offline Dexter

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #136 on: November 09, 2018, 12:47:26 pm »
Not any more than they do now. We have fallen from the top of the education heap to what now, 28th?

Every single country ahead of us on that list has a public option for children. A lot of them have a public option for young adults too.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 12:47:59 pm by Dexter »
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #137 on: November 09, 2018, 12:48:07 pm »
How is a sovereign state going to enforce that standard without a public option for children?

However the hell it wants to (that is what 'sovereign' means).

Offline roamer_1

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #138 on: November 09, 2018, 12:48:46 pm »
Every single country ahead of us on that list has a public option for children. A lot of them have a public option for young adults too.

So what?

Offline Dexter

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #139 on: November 09, 2018, 12:48:51 pm »
However the hell it wants to (that is what 'sovereign' means).

You're being illogical. It is IMPOSSIBLE to enforce that standard without a public option.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline Dexter

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #140 on: November 09, 2018, 12:49:33 pm »
So what?

So maybe that should say something about the importance of the role of public education.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #141 on: November 09, 2018, 12:50:09 pm »
You're being illogical. It is IMPOSSIBLE to enforce that standard without a public option.

How do you know?

Offline roamer_1

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #142 on: November 09, 2018, 12:51:15 pm »
So maybe that should say something about the importance of the role of public education.

It doesn't say anything. Leadership often goes a different way. You are not leading if you are following others.

Offline Dexter

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #143 on: November 09, 2018, 12:51:46 pm »
How do you know?

What are you going to do when people fail to meet the standard? Take the kids away? When you take the kids away where will they get the education they need? Without a public option the state can't educate them either. There is absolutely no way to guarantee an education to children.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline Axeslinger

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #144 on: November 09, 2018, 12:52:19 pm »
Would you agree that there should at least be certain comprehension standards? Like a 12 year old should understand how to read decently and do some math.

@Dexter

Here’s how you do that and keep the fedgov out:   Each state decides and defines how THEY measure a successful education and then provides statistical evidence that they have met that goal.

AND @roamer_1 concerns can be addressed thus:   those who wish to use homeschooling or ANY OTHER alternative means of educating their kids are free to do so with zero state intervention provided the children pass the same benchmark testing that the rest of the state kids pass.
"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." - Thomas Jefferson

Offline roamer_1

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #145 on: November 09, 2018, 12:54:11 pm »
What are you going to do when people fail to meet the standard? Take the kids away? When you take the kids away where will they get the education they need? Without a public option the state can't educate them either. There is absolutely no way to guarantee an education to children.

All of that is none of your business. Worry about your own state and stop coercing me and mine into a failing system.

Offline Dexter

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #146 on: November 09, 2018, 12:56:24 pm »
@Dexter
Here’s how you do that and keep the fedgov out:   Each state decides and defines how THEY measure a successful education and then provides statistical evidence that they have met that goal.

I am on board as long as we find a way to guarantee that children are not having their potential thrown away by not educating them on how to read, write and do math at a reasonable pace.

AND @roamer_1 concerns can be addressed thus:   those who wish to use homeschooling or ANY OTHER alternative means of educating their kids are free to do so with zero state intervention provided the children pass the same benchmark testing that the rest of the state kids pass.

I agree to that as well. If people want to weave Christianity and conservatism deeply into the education of their children I have absolutely no problem with that as long as the kids are also learning how to read and do math etc.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 12:58:27 pm by Dexter »
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline Dexter

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #147 on: November 09, 2018, 12:56:58 pm »
All of that is none of your business. Worry about your own state and stop coercing me and mine into a failing system.


No deal, sorry. You have no solution because there isn't one.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #148 on: November 09, 2018, 12:58:33 pm »

No deal, sorry. You have no solution because there isn't one.

There are many, many solutions. Your overweening nanny state is stopping people from finding them.

Offline Dexter

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Re: How much of your money should the government take?
« Reply #149 on: November 09, 2018, 12:59:23 pm »
There are many, many solutions.

Let me know when you think of even one.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates