Author Topic: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party  (Read 39281 times)

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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #475 on: September 12, 2018, 12:36:33 PM »
@Jazzhead   There is no evidence on any known planet that Trump can change or that he wants to change.  He will not. 

The question is, can Jazzhead change?  Can he put aside his revulsion at some of the things Trump says that offend him and give Trump the credit he's due?

Waiting, Jazzhead?

I have given the President the credit he's due.   And I will vote the GOP ticket this November.   But you miss my point, @Emjay.    Trump is his own worst enemy.  All the good he, and the GOP Congress, have accomplished is in danger of being squandered because Trump insists - like the Dems - that this election be a referendum on him.    Sure, he has to motivate his base.  But that base is only a third of the electorate, at best, and  GOP candidates are going to need the support of folks like me to keep Trump from being eaten alive by fire ants come next year.   

People like me have a legitimate beef with the erratic personality and autocratic inclinations of this President.   I have no interest whatsoever in supporting Trump the man, only in ensuring that the policies he and the GOP have championed continue, and that the country doesn't descend further into political chaos.   I have consistently said that Trump deserves the chance to govern,  to establish his priorities,  and to grow into the office he woke up as surprised as anyone that he had achieved.  He is the barking dog who caught the car, and I have wished him well and Godspeed - for the good of the nation.   But it is the good of the nation that compels me to add my voice to those urging Trump - against all odds and before it's too late - to ACT LIKE A PRESIDENT.   
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 12:37:05 PM by Jazzhead »
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Offline Emjay

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #476 on: September 12, 2018, 12:37:33 PM »
That was a good point.

I'd imagine that just about all of us, at one point or another, have looked at our posting style and/or things we've said, and thought "boy, I really don't like that, and I'm going to try to change that moving forward."  Yet even if we actually reach that point of saying "I shouldn't have done that", it is still very hard to make such a change, and have it stick.  We tend to slip inexorably back to what we've always done.

Here, Trump hasn't even gotten to the point where he thinks he's wrong.  He thinks he succeeds because of his candid, shoot from the hip style, not in spite of it.   And to be fair, it got him to the Presidency of the United States.  He's now 72 years old, and...does anyone honestly think he's going to do that complete 180 now?

Yep!  I'm not suggesting that @Jazzhead  and others with similar viewpoints start to like Trump's style.  That would require a more serious change than I would expect for anyone who wasn't struck blind on the road to Damascus.

But,  It's like in a family ... are you gonna let Aunt Betty ruin Thanksgiving because she always makes annoying comments.  Or, are you gonna say, 'oh, that's just Aunt Betty, she's annoying but she's a good person.'
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #477 on: September 12, 2018, 12:45:36 PM »

Here, Trump hasn't even gotten to the point where he thinks he's wrong.  He thinks he succeeds because of his candid, shoot from the hip style, not in spite of it.   And to be fair, it got him to the Presidency of the United States.  He's now 72 years old, and...does anyone honestly think he's going to do that complete 180 now?

The man's not an idiot.  Of course he can change.   He's reinvented himself many times through the years.  He began as a real estate developer and morphed into an impresario of branding.   On politics, he began as a pro-choice Democrat and morphed into a populist Republican who says what social conservatives want to hear.  (I'll say that, to his credit, his views on trade and tariffs,  however right or wrong they may be,  and his respect for the working class,  have been consistent through the years.)   

The time is now for him to consolidate his success, not squander it.  He may have been an accidental President, but the President is who he is.   It is time for him to begin acting like he respects the office,  and to address the concerns of folks like me.    He can do it. 
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 12:47:15 PM by Jazzhead »
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

   - Duke Ellington, upon hearing of the death of Louis Armstrong

"Not forever.  Just for now"

    - Jay Farrar

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #478 on: September 12, 2018, 12:52:26 PM »

But,  It's like in a family ... are you gonna let Aunt Betty ruin Thanksgiving because she always makes annoying comments.  Or, are you gonna say, 'oh, that's just Aunt Betty, she's annoying but she's a good person.'

The way to survive Aunt Betty at Thanksgiving is to drink heavily.   That's because Aunt Betty's annoying comments stay at the dinner table, within the family. 

 What Trump's self-centered style is in danger of doing is throwing GOP control of Congress to the jackals.   That hurts me and you,  because Dem policies are atrocious.  And it hurts the President, for it sets the stage for his political death by a thousand cuts.   
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

   - Duke Ellington, upon hearing of the death of Louis Armstrong

"Not forever.  Just for now"

    - Jay Farrar

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #479 on: September 12, 2018, 12:57:43 PM »

Plus...the feedback he's gotten from that approach is hardly a consistent negative.  When he made the comment about Mexicans in the summer of 2015, pundits and politicians confidently predicted it would be the end of his campaign.  Instead, it gave him a boost.  When he came up with insulting nicknames and made insulting comments in the primaries, people again said he would lose as a result.   Instead, he won the nomination.  And when the pollsters and pundits were telling him the day before the election that he had no shot, and that Hillary would steamroll him, they turned out to be horribly wrong.  What some of his critics need to realize is this -- the results of the 2016 election convinced Trump that he has a better handle on what the American people really think than do all his critics.  If there was ever any chance that he was going to be convinced that his approach was the wrong one, that election eliminated it.

That's why I can't fathom the unsupported belief that he's going to change his approach just because the same critics keep saying the same things about him now.  Heck, if the GOP gets stomped in the midterms, Trump will point out that he's more popular than Congress, and that the reason the GOP lost Congress was because they didn't support him strongly enough.  And if the GOP holds on to Congress, he'll claim credit for that too.  More importantly, he'll absolutely believe either alternative when he says it.

Expecting this guy to change at this point is a fool's errand.

A fool's errand that I willingly undertake,  because the stakes are far higher than Trump alone.   His base may react favorably to his name-calling and bullying,  but his margin of victory was secured by folks who viewed him as the lesser of two evils.   Now he wants this fall's elections to be a referendum on himself.   So do the Dems.   
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

   - Duke Ellington, upon hearing of the death of Louis Armstrong

"Not forever.  Just for now"

    - Jay Farrar

Offline TomSea

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #480 on: September 12, 2018, 01:01:41 PM »
The numbers may be totally faulty but I saw this tweet:

Quote
Ryan Struyk
‏Verified account @ryanstruyk
1h1 hour ago

Should the President be impeached and removed from office or not?
(via @CNN polling)

Trump, Sept 2018
47% impeach
48% don't impeach

Obama, Nov 2014
29% impeach
70% don't impeach

Bush, Aug 2006
30% impeach
69% don't impeach

Clinton, Sept 1998
29% impeach
67% don't impeach
https://twitter.com/ryanstruyk/status/1039899538444754944

May be total bunk. Just posting.

Offline Emjay

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #481 on: September 12, 2018, 01:04:32 PM »
A fool's errand that I willingly undertake,  because the stakes are far higher than Trump alone.   His base may react favorably to his name-calling and bullying,  but his margin of victory was secured by folks who viewed him as the lesser of two evils.   Now he wants this fall's elections to be a referendum on himself.   So do the Dems.

@Jazzhead   You've made it completely plain that you will not change, nor will you even try to change.

Yet you expect Trump to change?

Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Online skeeter

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #482 on: September 12, 2018, 01:07:22 PM »
A fool's errand that I willingly undertake,  because the stakes are far higher than Trump alone.   His base may react favorably to his name-calling and bullying,  but his margin of victory was secured by folks who viewed him as the lesser of two evils.   Now he wants this fall's elections to be a referendum on himself.   So do the Dems.

Rather than repeat his critics’ charges against him, some of which are patently unfair, why not talk up the good his administration has done? Then maybe we will win.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #483 on: September 12, 2018, 01:20:08 PM »
A fool's errand that I willingly undertake...

What tangible results do you expect to achieve by undertaking that fool's errand?

Do you agree or disagree with my prior statement that Democrats use criticism of Trump's personal style as a tool to sabotage his substantive agenda? 

If joining/encouraging the public criticism of Trump when he says something stupid actually has a tangible benefit to advancing a conservative agenda, then fine.  But if it does not, and such criticism actually strengthens Democrat efforts to stop his agenda, then many see such public criticisms as playing right into the hands of the Democrats.

I think that's the fault line where many conservatives/Republicans splinter on public criticism of Trump.

Online roamer_1

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #484 on: September 12, 2018, 01:23:58 PM »
@roamer_1

You need a new gooroo,bubba. Principles shift according to many,many things,and is dependent on reality. Unless maybe you are willing to state you would rather see your child starve to death than steal food to feed the child.

The REALITY is that principles shift and that shift is dependent on the realities you happen to be living in at the time.

NO, principles do NOT change.

prin·ci·ple
ˈprinsəpəl/
noun: principle; plural noun: principles
    1.
    a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning.

FUNDAMENTAL TRUTH. That means foundational. That means bedrock. Truth that is always true, and self-evidently true. That does not move. If you think it does, @sneakypete , then it is you that needs a new guru, not me.

Online roamer_1

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #485 on: September 12, 2018, 01:26:16 PM »
I agree generally with your point, but I think the phrasing isn't quite correct.

Principles themselves don't/shouldn't shift.  But how we weigh competing moral principles may vary greatly depending upon the particular situation.  For example, "telling the truth" may be a principle, but there obviously are times when lying is the more moral course because of other principles that may be implicated.

Bullshit.

Online roamer_1

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #486 on: September 12, 2018, 01:27:46 PM »
@Maj. Bill Martin

Ok,I can go along with that.

Pragmatism ALWAYS prevails over principle unless you are a fool with no interest in survival.

Where I come from, pragmatism gets you dead.
'pragmatism' is just an excuse for weakness.

Online roamer_1

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #487 on: September 12, 2018, 01:33:36 PM »
@Chosen Daughter

No,you are NOT. You are a follower who allows your social group to define every aspect of your thinking and life. You can not be a devoutly religious follower of ANY faith and be an independent thinker. You can be one or the other,but not both.

YES, she is a follower. Of ONE. One who commands she follow no other, and be set apart. That means independent of all else. That REQUIRES independent thinking.

Religion is what atheists do.

@sneakypete
@Chosen Daughter

Online roamer_1

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #488 on: September 12, 2018, 01:35:11 PM »
I am not a devout religious follower.  I am a believer in Jesus Christ Savior.  Religion is for people who believe they can change the Word of God with the Social behavior of the world.  Just like the Republican party believes they can conform to the social norms and shift to the left for the sake of votes.

 :beer: :seeya:

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #489 on: September 12, 2018, 01:36:52 PM »
Bullshit.

Really?

In 1944, the Allies ran "Operation Fortitude", which was nothing but a gargantuan lie -- a deception.  They created false radio traffic for units that did not exist, fake armored vehicles, etc., all to convince Germans of the lie that Patton was going to be leading the invasion over the Pas de Calais.

Or you can click the link in my signature.  Another calculated bit of dishonesty to create a man who never lived, to convince the Germans that we would be invading Sardinia and Greece rather than Sicily.  A pure lie.

Or in the more mundane sphere, last year I was planning a surprise anniversary trip to take my wife to Prague.  She happened to come downstairs while I was on the phone making some of the arrangements, and asked me what I was talking about.  I lied and told her I was setting trial dates because I did not want to spoil the surprise, especially since I was not positive that we'd actually be able to go, and I didn't want to let her know unless/until it was confirmed.

To you, all three are immoral because they involved dishonesty. 

I disagree.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 01:45:31 PM by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline musiclady

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #490 on: September 12, 2018, 01:38:15 PM »
YES, she is a follower. Of ONE. One who commands she follow no other, and be set apart. That means independent of all else. That REQUIRES independent thinking.

Religion is what atheists do.

@sneakypete
@Chosen Daughter

Excellent post! Thank you!!

@roamer_1
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

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Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline INVAR

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #491 on: September 12, 2018, 02:04:32 PM »
If joining/encouraging the public criticism of Trump when he says something stupid actually has a tangible benefit to advancing a conservative agenda, then fine.  But if it does not, and such criticism actually strengthens Democrat efforts to stop his agenda, then many see such public criticisms as playing right into the hands of the Democrats.

I think that's the fault line where many conservatives/Republicans splinter on public criticism of Trump.

Some of us do not subscribe to the political playbook that justifies requiring everyone to exclaim that the emperor is wearing fine clothes when he is prancing around naked.

Truth is truth - even if sometimes only the childlike have the courage to state it openly without fear of what everyone else is going to say.

I continue to marvel at the insistence of so many who lecture that we must trust and believe and have faith in those whom engage in lies and deceitfulness as long as lies and deceit produce the results we think we want.  How do you trust a liar?  Why must we have faith in illusions and spectacle designed for nothing more than acclamation and approval without substance beyond the temporal and fragile?


In 1944, the Allies ran "Operation Fortitude", which was nothing but a gargantuan lie -- a deception. 

War is a construct of man, not of God.  Lies and dishonesty are tools of Satan, and it is man who buys the lie that such tools can be used for good. If lies produce such goodness, then perhaps we should all start lying more about everything so that goodness may abound more abundantly.

To you, all three are immoral because they involved dishonesty. 

There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death. - Proverbs 14:12
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Online roamer_1

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #492 on: September 12, 2018, 02:11:00 PM »
That's an ambiguous, one word denial devoid of any context or explanation.  The coward's way to avoid taking and defending an actual position. 

Honesty is a principle most of us value.  But there are times when the most moral course is to be dishonest.  Do you disagree?

Of course I don't disagree. The moral imperative outweighs the command. David stole the showbread... You can get your ox out of the well on the Sabbath... It does not, however change the command or principle... The principle is still true.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #493 on: September 12, 2018, 02:12:46 PM »
Some of us do not subscribe to the political playbook that justifies requiring everyone to exclaim that the emperor is wearing fine clothes when he is prancing around naked.

No, that is not my point.  I am not asking or expecting anyone to speak out in support of something they oppose.

I am addressing a particular subset of people who 1) claim to support most of Trump's substantive agenda, AND 2) believe that publicly criticizing his flaws is "constructive criticism" because it will induce him to change his behavior.  I believe 2) is wrong factually, and actually undermines rather than supports 1).

Frankly, I don't believe you ascribe to either of those two beliefs, so my comments have nothing to do with whether or not you should speak out on Trump.  I believe you oppose most of his agenda, and don't really care if your criticisms help or hinder him at all.  You make them for their own sake as a moral statement, without regard to their tangible effect. 

In other words...this has nothing to do with you.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 02:16:02 PM by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #494 on: September 12, 2018, 02:13:24 PM »
Of course I don't disagree. The moral imperative outweighs the command. David stole the showbread... You can get your ox out of the well on the Sabbath... It does not, however change the command or principle... The principle is still true.

That was exactly the point I was making in the first place that you labelled "bullshit".

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #495 on: September 12, 2018, 02:23:18 PM »
Where I come from, pragmatism gets you dead.
'pragmatism' is just an excuse for weakness.

Bullshit.
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

   - Duke Ellington, upon hearing of the death of Louis Armstrong

"Not forever.  Just for now"

    - Jay Farrar

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #496 on: September 12, 2018, 02:28:36 PM »
The numbers may be totally faulty but I saw this tweet:
https://twitter.com/ryanstruyk/status/1039899538444754944

May be total bunk. Just posting.

The 2018 and 2014 numbers are published here https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/12/politics/impeachment-trump-poll-pelosi/index.html

Online roamer_1

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #497 on: September 12, 2018, 02:29:59 PM »
To you, all three are immoral because they involved dishonesty. 

I disagree.

asked and answered.

Offline INVAR

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #498 on: September 12, 2018, 02:34:37 PM »
I am addressing a particular subset of people who 1) claim to support most of Trump's substantive agenda, AND 2) believe that publicly criticizing his flaws is "constructive criticism" because it will induce him to change his behavior.  I believe 2) is wrong factually, and actually undermines rather than supports 1).

We both agree in regards to Trump himself, what you assert.  Trump is not going to change for all the reasons you cited.

But then Trump is not reading this board, and our discourse is intended for one another and those who read it.  WE CAN CHANGE.  Trump will not.

I believe you oppose most of his agenda...

What 'agenda'??  The one he speaks about in great platitudes and empty promises?  The 'wall'; 'lock her up'; and the things his rabid supporters have faith he will do for them?...

... or actual things like trillion-dollar deficit spending budgets he vowed he would never sign onto again?  An Executive governed like his predecessor via Executive Orders?

Sorry, but I do not believe in or trust liars so whatever this MAGA agenda is - I think it is nothing more than flatulent opportunism and sloganeering for hype's sake.

...(you) don't really care if your criticisms help or hinder him at all.  You make them for their own sake as a moral statement, without regard to their tangible effect. 

First of all, I was told repeatedly by Trump's fanbase since the primaries that my concerns and criticisms are irrelevant and have no ability to affect anything.

Whether what I opine on here has any help or hindrance to Trump is irrelevant, because he himself said he doesn't need our help and that claim has been repeated ad nauseum since then by his fanbase.

We are discussing principles here, the foundational first things that politics has no further use of in this country.  If people fear the truth will harm Trump, too bad.   I have no allegiance to him whatsoever.

In other words...this has nothing to do with you.

Has to do with liberty and true freedom ( which does not come from men) - something apparently most give a rat's ass about as long as they get payback and follow a 'winner'.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 02:35:29 PM by INVAR »
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Online roamer_1

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #499 on: September 12, 2018, 03:01:37 PM »
That was exactly the point I was making in the first place that you labelled "bullshit".

Then I apologize, as I must have misread you.
People use this sort of tripe to defend moral relativism - called pragmatism on the 'conservative' side of things.

The emphasis in the phrase 'moral imperative' necessarily must be on 'imperative', lest through an event or array of 'moral imperatives' one defeats the principle.

I do only what is needful on Shabbat... Sometimes the ox does fall in the well, and I must work. But I do not like it. And I do not justify it. Even so, the slippery slope of pragmatism finds me changing from 'buying needful parts and fixing the fence', to 'well, I already broke Shabbat, so I might as well order a pizza...', to a point where Shabbat has lost all meaning.

And that from a rigid fundamentalist. I know how easy it is to stray. That is why I am a rigid fundamentalist, and why I am likewise, a dyed-in-the-wool Conservative.

The 'pragmatism of the day' is precisely what erodes the Law of God.
And likewise what erodes 'We hold these truths to be self-evident....'

The imperative belongs upon the law - The principle. All too often that imperative is swung to fit a needful 'moral circumstance', and is never returned to its rightful place.



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