Author Topic: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party  (Read 57785 times)

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Offline Chosen Daughter

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #450 on: September 12, 2018, 04:51:49 am »
Please @Chosen Daughter   Do not flatter yourself.  I promise you I will not blame you if Trump is derailed.

The ones the follow me?
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #451 on: September 12, 2018, 12:44:42 pm »
Principles are truth.
Truth IS reality.
End_of_story.

@roamer_1

You need a new gooroo,bubba. Principles shift according to many,many things,and is dependent on reality. Unless maybe you are willing to state you would rather see your child starve to death than steal food to feed the child.

The REALITY is that principles shift and that shift is dependent on the realities you happen to be living in at the time.

Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #452 on: September 12, 2018, 12:46:18 pm »
Thank you, sir.

@Hoodat

Get over yourself. Nobody died and made you Gawd.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #453 on: September 12, 2018, 12:49:40 pm »

I'm a self thinker.

@Chosen Daughter

No,you are NOT. You are a follower who allows your social group to define every aspect of your thinking and life. You can not be a devoutly religious follower of ANY faith and be an independent thinker. You can be one or the other,but not both.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #454 on: September 12, 2018, 12:51:36 pm »
@roamer_1

You need a new gooroo,bubba. Principles shift according to many,many things,and is dependent on reality. Unless maybe you are willing to state you would rather see your child starve to death than steal food to feed the child.

The REALITY is that principles shift and that shift is dependent on the realities you happen to be living in at the time.

I agree generally with your point, but I think the phrasing isn't quite correct.

Principles themselves don't/shouldn't shift.  But how we weigh competing moral principles may vary greatly depending upon the particular situation.  For example, "telling the truth" may be a principle, but there obviously are times when lying is the more moral course because of other principles that may be implicated.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 12:52:19 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline sneakypete

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #455 on: September 12, 2018, 12:55:23 pm »
I agree generally with your point, but I think the phrasing isn't quite correct.

Principles themselves don't/shouldn't shift.  But how we weigh competing moral principles may vary greatly depending upon the particular situation.  For example, "telling the truth" may be a principle, but there obviously are times when lying is the more moral course because of other principles that may be implicated.

@Maj. Bill Martin

Ok,I can go along with that.

Pragmatism ALWAYS prevails over principle unless you are a fool with no interest in survival.
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Offline aligncare

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #456 on: September 12, 2018, 01:05:27 pm »
Interpersonal relationships require we adhere to timeless principles of morality, honesty, kindness, forgiveness.

(Politics excepted and not covered under warranty.)

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #457 on: September 12, 2018, 01:53:16 pm »
Always a 'but' @Jazzhead   Good things are happening 'but'

But you don't like Trump's personality.  You admit to growing prosperity but Trump is a jerk.

You may admit to the probability of Trump improving the Supreme Court in a dramatic way, but Trump is a jerk.

You may admit to Trump actually putting America first in trade and in protecting our country from being overwhelmed by illegal alients ... but Trump is a jerk.

Now I'm wondering who the real jerk is in this scenario.

Okay, fine,  @Emjay , so I'm a jerk.   But my jerky behavior doesn't threaten GOP control of Congress and the prosperity that is lifting all boats.   Trump's does.   

What you object to is constructive criticism of the President.   He has kept his promises and accomplished a great deal in the face of unyielding opposition.    But he exhibits a toxic brew of megalomania and an appetite for self-destruction, and it is overshadowing his accomplishments.    He's had a year and a half to conform to reasonable norms of how a President should behave.  Yes,  he's being goaded on a daily basis.  But he needs to realize that he is his own worst enemy.

You can dismiss what I have to say with a flip insult.   So would, no doubt, President Trump.   But he is going to wake up and change his ways sooner or later.  I'd prefer the former, since our prosperity is riding on it.  Constructive criticism should be heeded, not flipped off.  We are not his enemies. 
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #458 on: September 12, 2018, 02:19:09 pm »
@Jazzhead @Emjay

Okay, fine,  @Emjay , so I'm a jerk.   But my jerky behavior doesn't threaten GOP control of Congress and the prosperity that is lifting all boats.   Trump's does.   

What you object to is constructive criticism of the President.   He has kept his promises and accomplished a great deal in the face of unyielding opposition.    But he exhibits a toxic brew of megalomania and an appetite for self-destruction, and it is overshadowing his accomplishments.    He's had a year and a half to conform to reasonable norms of how a President should behave.  Yes,  he's being goaded on a daily basis.  But he needs to realize that he is his own worst enemy.

Well, this is interesting because I think it highlights the critical point that separates so many people.  I bolded the language I think hits the key issue.

You're arguing that your criticism is "constructive" because Trump "needs to realize that he is his own worst enemy."  Presumably, that means you think your criticism -- as echoed by many, many others -- is going "to make him realize that he is his own worst enemy."

Seriously?

I think that's about as likely as the New England Patriots winning the World Series.  Anyone remotely familiar with Trump and his background knows that this is who he is.  He's a blowhard who gets in trouble because he can't stop putting his foot in his mouth.  And he's thin-skinned, so the more he gets criticized publicly, the more likely his behavior is to get worse.  People throughout the media, in the GOP, and ordinary people like you have been blasting Trump literally for years trying to get him to stop doing that stuff.  How has that worked out?

John Kelly -- who trust me is a pretty persuasive, impressive guy in person -- communicates with Trump on a daily basis, and obviously would prefer that Trump not say things that get him in trouble.  Yet even he hasn't managed to stop those things despite being Trump's COS for more than a year.  And I bet Trump's own wife, daughter, and son-in-law all have done their best in private to restrain him.  How's that worked out for them?

Quote
But he is going to wake up and change his ways sooner or later.

Based on what???  That is pure wishful thinking - literally.  The man is 72 years old, and is nothing if not consistent in his personality.  Where is there a shred of evidence to support this idea that he is "going to wake up and change his ways sooner or later?"  I would say that every shred of evidence actually suggests that the opposite is true.  The most rational conclusion -- and the only one supported by any facts -- is that he is not ever going to every wake up and change his ways, and there is nothing you or anyone else can do about it.

No matter how well-meaning your intentions may be with this criticism you believe is "constructive", it just isn't.  He is who he is, and the cacophony of public criticism from critics who claim to support most of his substantive agenda isn't having the effect you desire.  It's not changing his behavior -- it is handing to the opponents of his policies more ammunition with which to oppose him on substance.  The left loves nothing more than to take something stupid he's said, build the narrative that he's a bad, evil guy, and then use that narrative to discredit his policy proposals, judicial nominations, etc., as well as anyone who supports those proposals.  And when GOP critics decide to pile on when he says stupid things, they are helping the left build that narrative.

I'm not saying that Republicans should give him false praise when he says something stupid.  I'm saying that the piling on based on the false belief that such criticism is "constructive", and will change his behavior for the better, is actually destructive of the substantive agenda so many of them claim to support.

tl;dr

We know he says stupid stuff.  Repeatedly focusing on it just plays into the hands of the left.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 02:52:02 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Chosen Daughter

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #459 on: September 12, 2018, 02:24:00 pm »
@Chosen Daughter

No,you are NOT. You are a follower who allows your social group to define every aspect of your thinking and life. You can not be a devoutly religious follower of ANY faith and be an independent thinker. You can be one or the other,but not both.

I am not a devout religious follower.  I am a believer in Jesus Christ Savior.  Religion is for people who believe they can change the Word of God with the Social behavior of the world.  Just like the Republican party believes they can conform to the social norms and shift to the left for the sake of votes.
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline skeeter

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #460 on: September 12, 2018, 02:26:22 pm »
@Jazzhead

Well, this is interesting because I think it highlights the critical point that separates so many people.  I bolded the language I think hits the key issue.

You're arguing that your criticism is "constructive" because Trump "needs to realize that he is his own worst enemy."  Presumably, that means you think your criticism -- as echoed by many, many others -- is going "to make him realize that he is his own worst enemy."

Seriously?

I think that's about as likely as the New England Patriots winning the World Series.  Anyone remotely familiar with Trump and his background knows that this is who he is.  He's a blowhard who gets in trouble because he can't stop putting his foot in his mouth.  And he's thin-skinned, so the more he gets criticized publicly, the more likely his behavior is to get worse.  People throughout the media, in the GOP, and ordinary people like you have been blasting Trump literally for years trying to get him to stop doing that stuff.  How has that worked out?

John Kelly -- who trust me is a pretty persuasive, impressive guy in person -- communicates with Trump on a daily basis, and obviously would prefer that Trump not say things that get him in trouble.  Yet even he hasn't managed to stop those things despite being Trump's COS for more than a year.  And I bet Trump's own wife, daughter, and son-in-law all have done their best in private to restrain him.  How's that worked out for them?

No matter how well-meaning your intentions may be with this criticism you believe is "constructive", it just isn't.  He is who he is, and the cacophony of public criticism from critics who claim to support most of his substantive agenda isn't having the effect you desire.  It's not changing his behavior -- it is handing to the opponents of his policies more ammunition with which to oppose him on substance.  The left loves nothing more than to take something stupid he's said, build the narrative that he's a bad, evil guy, and then use that narrative to discredit his policy proposals, judicial nominations, etc., as well as anyone who supports those proposals.  And when GOP critics decide to pile on when he says stupid things, they are helping the left build that narrative.

I'm not saying that Republicans should give him false praise when he says something stupid.  I'm saying that the piling on based on the false belief that such criticism is "constructive", and will change his behavior for the better, is actually destructive of the substantive agenda so many of them claim to support.

tl;dr

We know he says stupid stuff.  Repeatedly focusing on it just plays into the hands of the left.

Nice post. Everyone on all sides of this argument is sounding like the proverbial broken record.

Problems with his style aside, why not just start focusing on the practical results of having Trump as president, which I assume we're all pleased with, generally? Otherwise the dire warnings about him alienating this constituency or that one will become a self fulfilling prophesy and we'll get none of what we want.

Offline Chosen Daughter

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #461 on: September 12, 2018, 02:27:56 pm »
Okay, fine,  @Emjay , so I'm a jerk.   But my jerky behavior doesn't threaten GOP control of Congress and the prosperity that is lifting all boats.   Trump's does.   

What you object to is constructive criticism of the President.   He has kept his promises and accomplished a great deal in the face of unyielding opposition.    But he exhibits a toxic brew of megalomania and an appetite for self-destruction, and it is overshadowing his accomplishments.    He's had a year and a half to conform to reasonable norms of how a President should behave.  Yes,  he's being goaded on a daily basis.  But he needs to realize that he is his own worst enemy.

You can dismiss what I have to say with a flip insult.   So would, no doubt, President Trump.   But he is going to wake up and change his ways sooner or later.  I'd prefer the former, since our prosperity is riding on it.  Constructive criticism should be heeded, not flipped off.  We are not his enemies.

Well happy day!  We have disagreed on much but this is truth.  Trump has done some good and some bad.  But he definitely is his own worst enemy in many ways.  From his hiring and faith in people who have no morals to his tweets.
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline aligncare

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #462 on: September 12, 2018, 02:41:48 pm »
Nice post. Everyone on all sides of this argument is sounding like the proverbial broken record.

Problems with his style aside, why not just start focusing on the practical results of having Trump as president, which I assume we're all pleased with, generally? Otherwise the dire warnings about him alienating this constituency or that one will become a self fulfilling prophesy and we'll get none of what we want.

And I say it is exactly because Trump is the way he is that he has had so much success against a powerful and intransigent establishment: he is the proverbial bull in the china shop. And thank God for it.

None of the other 16 or seventeen courtly republican candidates for president could have achieved such accomplishments – none!

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #463 on: September 12, 2018, 02:43:52 pm »
Nice post. Everyone on all sides of this argument is sounding like the proverbial broken record.

Problems with his style aside, why not just start focusing on the practical results of having Trump as president, which I assume we're all pleased with, generally? Otherwise the dire warnings about him alienating this constituency or that one will become a self fulfilling prophesy and we'll get none of what we want.

Exactly.  His personality and penchant for saying stupid, offensive things isn't going to change, and has been beaten to death not just here, but everywhere.  It is what it is, and the constant offering up of the latest example as if it is something of note is just...boring.  It's not new, so the discussions surrounding the most recent example are just rehashing the exact same arguments that have been going on for more than three years. 

We know what he is.  The more important question moving forward is what he does when acting in his official capacity as Chief Executive.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 03:10:03 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Emjay

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #464 on: September 12, 2018, 03:38:29 pm »
Okay, fine,  @Emjay , so I'm a jerk.   But my jerky behavior doesn't threaten GOP control of Congress and the prosperity that is lifting all boats.   Trump's does.   

What you object to is constructive criticism of the President.   He has kept his promises and accomplished a great deal in the face of unyielding opposition.    But he exhibits a toxic brew of megalomania and an appetite for self-destruction, and it is overshadowing his accomplishments.    He's had a year and a half to conform to reasonable norms of how a President should behave.  Yes,  he's being goaded on a daily basis.  But he needs to realize that he is his own worst enemy.

You can dismiss what I have to say with a flip insult.   So would, no doubt, President Trump.   But he is going to wake up and change his ways sooner or later.  I'd prefer the former, since our prosperity is riding on it.  Constructive criticism should be heeded, not flipped off.  We are not his enemies.

I do not dismiss what you have to say.  BUT.  But you do dismiss Trump's accomplishments with a but and it's always related to his personality.

Trump will not change.  He was this way during the primaries.  He is 70 years old.  Do not expect him to change.  I don't.

So, we have to change if we want his presidency to be successful  And it is to our benefit that it be successful. 

I'm assuming you are offended by his tweets because I cannot think of any other public behavior that's been rude or ugly.

A lot of his supporters think his tweets are good and an excellent way of responding to false news.  I would prefer he didn't tweet but I may very well be wrong about that.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #465 on: September 12, 2018, 03:45:38 pm »
No matter how well-meaning your intentions may be with this criticism you believe is "constructive", it just isn't.  He is who he is, and the cacophony of public criticism from critics who claim to support most of his substantive agenda isn't having the effect you desire.  It's not changing his behavior -- it is handing to the opponents of his policies more ammunition with which to oppose him on substance.  The left loves nothing more than to take something stupid he's said, build the narrative that he's a bad, evil guy, and then use that narrative to discredit his policy proposals, judicial nominations, etc., as well as anyone who supports those proposals.  And when GOP critics decide to pile on when he says stupid things, they are helping the left build that narrative.

I'm not saying that Republicans should give him false praise when he says something stupid.  I'm saying that the piling on based on the false belief that such criticism is "constructive", and will change his behavior for the better, is actually destructive of the substantive agenda so many of them claim to support.

We know he says stupid stuff.  Repeatedly focusing on it just plays into the hands of the left.

Of course he can change, @Maj. Bill Martin    You're the one who appears to assume he's unable to grow, unable to adjust to his responsibilities as Chief Executive and Head of State  in a way that doesn't piss off more than half the electorate and diminish our reputation on the world stage.   Yes, he comes from a business environment where he's used to getting his way through brinksmanship, bombast and abuse.    But to suggest he cannot or will not adapt is giving him far less credit than I do.    Of course he can change.  He's not an idiot.   

He can accomplish his policy objectives without coming on like a mafia don,  without taking every last criticism as license to strike back by lowering himself to the level of his critics.   The stark reality is that UNLESS he changes, his policy objectives will be gone with the political winds.   He won because he was lucky - the Dems nominated a true turkey to run against him.   He nevertheless caught lightening in a bottle by applying his tax cut and de-regulatory impulses to an economy that was beginning to crest.   He's gotten so lucky that the boom has continued notwithstanding his anti-growth policies toward immigration, and his unorthodox approach to trade.      And by all lights he deserves to be rewarded for his success,  but it is becoming more and more likely that it will all come crashing down instead - because Trump can't think strategically beyond his own self-interest.   

You're suggesting I shut up for the good of the team.   I understand the impulse, but we are still two months away from the voting and there is still time to head off disaster.   I hope and pray.   
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Offline Emjay

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #466 on: September 12, 2018, 03:58:08 pm »
@Jazzhead @Emjay

Well, this is interesting because I think it highlights the critical point that separates so many people.  I bolded the language I think hits the key issue.

You're arguing that your criticism is "constructive" because Trump "needs to realize that he is his own worst enemy."  Presumably, that means you think your criticism -- as echoed by many, many others -- is going "to make him realize that he is his own worst enemy."

Seriously?

I think that's about as likely as the New England Patriots winning the World Series.  Anyone remotely familiar with Trump and his background knows that this is who he is.  He's a blowhard who gets in trouble because he can't stop putting his foot in his mouth.  And he's thin-skinned, so the more he gets criticized publicly, the more likely his behavior is to get worse.  People throughout the media, in the GOP, and ordinary people like you have been blasting Trump literally for years trying to get him to stop doing that stuff.  How has that worked out?

John Kelly -- who trust me is a pretty persuasive, impressive guy in person -- communicates with Trump on a daily basis, and obviously would prefer that Trump not say things that get him in trouble.  Yet even he hasn't managed to stop those things despite being Trump's COS for more than a year.  And I bet Trump's own wife, daughter, and son-in-law all have done their best in private to restrain him.  How's that worked out for them?

Based on what???  That is pure wishful thinking - literally.  The man is 72 years old, and is nothing if not consistent in his personality.  Where is there a shred of evidence to support this idea that he is "going to wake up and change his ways sooner or later?"  I would say that every shred of evidence actually suggests that the opposite is true.  The most rational conclusion -- and the only one supported by any facts -- is that he is not ever going to every wake up and change his ways, and there is nothing you or anyone else can do about it.

No matter how well-meaning your intentions may be with this criticism you believe is "constructive", it just isn't.  He is who he is, and the cacophony of public criticism from critics who claim to support most of his substantive agenda isn't having the effect you desire.  It's not changing his behavior -- it is handing to the opponents of his policies more ammunition with which to oppose him on substance.  The left loves nothing more than to take something stupid he's said, build the narrative that he's a bad, evil guy, and then use that narrative to discredit his policy proposals, judicial nominations, etc., as well as anyone who supports those proposals.  And when GOP critics decide to pile on when he says stupid things, they are helping the left build that narrative.

I'm not saying that Republicans should give him false praise when he says something stupid.  I'm saying that the piling on based on the false belief that such criticism is "constructive", and will change his behavior for the better, is actually destructive of the substantive agenda so many of them claim to support.

tl;dr

We know he says stupid stuff.  Repeatedly focusing on it just plays into the hands of the left.

It's not even 6 AM here but when I saw my e-mail, I clicked on @Jazzhead post to me and responded.

I wish now I'd taken the time to scroll back and read your post because you said it so much better than I did.

Thanks.

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Offline Emjay

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #467 on: September 12, 2018, 04:04:25 pm »
And I say it is exactly because Trump is the way he is that he has had so much success against a powerful and intransigent establishment: he is the proverbial bull in the china shop. And thank God for it.

None of the other 16 or seventeen courtly republican candidates for president could have achieved such accomplishments – none!

In spite of my earlier misgivings about Trump @aligncare ... misgivings I had when he was a candidate ... I've come to think that your feelings about Trump's personality being a plus in the current climate have more than a grain of truth about them.

What @Jazzhead @Chosen Daughter  and a few others should remember is that what they consider Trump's crude behavior is not hurting them and it's not hurting the country.

The people who are really hurt to the bone are the people I want to hurt ... the liberals and the democrats and the Hollywood types and the media.

Just remember before you cringe ... Trump is hurting them more.

Need I remind us ... the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
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Offline Emjay

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #468 on: September 12, 2018, 04:07:50 pm »
Of course he can change, @Maj. Bill Martin    You're the one who appears to assume he's unable to grow, unable to adjust to his responsibilities as Chief Executive and Head of State  in a way that doesn't piss off more than half the electorate and diminish our reputation on the world stage.   Yes, he comes from a business environment where he's used to getting his way through brinksmanship, bombast and abuse.    But to suggest he cannot or will not adapt is giving him far less credit than I do.    Of course he can change.  He's not an idiot.   

He can accomplish his policy objectives without coming on like a mafia don,  without taking every last criticism as license to strike back by lowering himself to the level of his critics.   The stark reality is that UNLESS he changes, his policy objectives will be gone with the political winds.   He won because he was lucky - the Dems nominated a true turkey to run against him.   He nevertheless caught lightening in a bottle by applying his tax cut and de-regulatory impulses to an economy that was beginning to crest.   He's gotten so lucky that the boom has continued notwithstanding his anti-growth policies toward immigration, and his unorthodox approach to trade.      And by all lights he deserves to be rewarded for his success,  but it is becoming more and more likely that it will all come crashing down instead - because Trump can't think strategically beyond his own self-interest.   

You're suggesting I shut up for the good of the team.   I understand the impulse, but we are still two months away from the voting and there is still time to head off disaster.   I hope and pray.   

@Jazzhead   There is no evidence on any known planet that Trump can change or that he wants to change.  He will not. 

The question is, can Jazzhead change?  Can he put aside his revulsion at some of the things Trump says that offend him and give Trump the credit he's due?

Waiting, Jazzhead? 
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline TomSea

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #469 on: September 12, 2018, 04:09:22 pm »
Okay, fine,  @Emjay , so I'm a jerk.   But my jerky behavior doesn't threaten GOP control of Congress and the prosperity that is lifting all boats.   Trump's does.   

What you object to is constructive criticism of the President.   He has kept his promises and accomplished a great deal in the face of unyielding opposition.    But he exhibits a toxic brew of megalomania and an appetite for self-destruction, and it is overshadowing his accomplishments.    He's had a year and a half to conform to reasonable norms of how a President should behave.  Yes,  he's being goaded on a daily basis.  But he needs to realize that he is his own worst enemy.

You can dismiss what I have to say with a flip insult.   So would, no doubt, President Trump.   But he is going to wake up and change his ways sooner or later.  I'd prefer the former, since our prosperity is riding on it.  Constructive criticism should be heeded, not flipped off.  We are not his enemies.

You are no jerk, that ship has sailed. It's ironic that some who have said the worst and foulest about Trump are correcting others on mild and well-thought-out criticisms. I think a lot of us question President Trump's demeanor. If we are not questioning another human being, I guess they must be perfect. Then, again, it could be someone who feels only their opinion is the correct one and has to lambast others.

Some of us see the unbridled nature of Trump as a positive, I think basically, that's it. He's no-holds barred but I'm not going to resort to insulting others over it because they have a different opinion than me.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #470 on: September 12, 2018, 04:10:44 pm »
Of course he can change, @Maj. Bill Martin

Where is the evidence that there is more than a negligible possibility of such a change?

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You're the one who appears to assume he's unable to grow, unable to adjust to his responsibilities as Chief Executive and Head of State  in a way that doesn't piss off more than half the electorate and diminish our reputation on the world stage.

My assumption is based on history, and demonstrable evidence.  He has been active politically for more than three years.  During that entire time, he has been bombarded repeatedly, and publicly, by critics such as yourself.  Members of Congress of his own party blasted him publicly in an effort to change him.  His senior staff has tried to change him.  His own family has tried to rein him in.  None of it has worked.  What is the basis for your belief that public criticism with lead him to change his conduct, when it has failed utterly to do so for years? 

Heck, you're not even claiming there's a "chance" he'll change.  You actually stated it as a certainty -- that "he is going to wake up and change his ways sooner or later".  So again...how do you know that?

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Yes, he comes from a business environment where he's used to getting his way through brinksmanship, bombast and abuse.    But to suggest he cannot or will not adapt is giving him far less credit than I do.    Of course he can change.  He's not an idiot.

Then why has he maintained that exact same approach ever since he started running for office?  You yourself have pointed out all the ways it has hurt him, and say "he's not an idiot."  Okay, then why hasn't he seen things the same way you have, and changed?  What is your explanation for that?

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You're suggesting I shut up for the good of the team.

No, I'm not.  I think if people feel they need to speak out to make clear their own moral position on his statements/conduct, that's up to them.  I'm not telling them to shut up. 

I am saying that if your reason for speaking out is a belief that "he will change sooner or later", and that continued public criticism of him will induce him to make those desired changes, that belief is nothing more than wishful thinking completely unsupported by any evidence.  And in fact, is contradicted by the repeated failure of that exact tactic ever since he started running for office.  I am also saying that if you generally support his agenda, that such criticism is not constructive, but rather destructive. In fact, the evidence is that he responds to public criticism in the exact opposite way than you hope -- he responds by lashing out with comments that are often worse than the original.

One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. So as much as some question Trump's sanity, I have to question those who think that doing the same thing that has failed for three years straight is somehow going to succeed moving forward.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 04:12:31 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Emjay

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #471 on: September 12, 2018, 04:16:35 pm »
Hate to say it but I love what I just posted to @Jazzhead even though I doubt that he loves it that much.

I just challenged him to stop begging for Trump to change and to change himself.

That just may help him realize how hard it is to change.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #472 on: September 12, 2018, 04:23:42 pm »
Principles shift according to many,many things,and is dependent on reality.
The REALITY is that principles shift and that shift is dependent on the realities you happen to be living in at the time.

That is exactly what the Liberal Left tells me when they explain why the Constitution needs to be "living" and fluid - to change with the times.

So why bother having one at all?

Let's just wing it and blame the consequences on someone else.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #473 on: September 12, 2018, 04:27:04 pm »
In spite of my earlier misgivings about Trump @aligncare ... misgivings I had when he was a candidate ... I've come to think that your feelings about Trump's personality being a plus in the current climate have more than a grain of truth about them.

What @Jazzhead @Chosen Daughter  and a few others should remember is that what they consider Trump's crude behavior is not hurting them and it's not hurting the country.

The people who are really hurt to the bone are the people I want to hurt ... the liberals and the democrats and the Hollywood types and the media.

Just remember before you cringe ... Trump is hurting them more.

Need I remind us ... the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I think there are aspects of Trump's personality that are indeed a positive.  Having a willingness to speak truths even when they offend is a very valuable trait for a leader to have.  Of course, part of Trump's problem is that he also offends people needlessly.

I think the reason Trump is so willing to counterpunch is that he doesn't use a filter.  That's a positive when it comes to justified responses, but a negative when it comes to unjustified responses.  But...he's not going to change.  He is who he is, and while I'd much rather that he refrain from the unjustified responses, that's just not who he is.  He's always shot from the hip, and he's not going to change at 72 years old.

Plus...the feedback he's gotten from that approach is hardly a consistent negative.  When he made the comment about Mexicans in the summer of 2015, pundits and politicians confidently predicted it would be the end of his campaign.  Instead, it gave him a boost.  When he came up with insulting nicknames and made insulting comments in the primaries, people again said he would lose as a result.   Instead, he won the nomination.  And when the pollsters and pundits were telling him the day before the election that he had no shot, and that Hillary would steamroll him, they turned out to be horribly wrong.  What some of his critics need to realize is this -- the results of the 2016 election convinced Trump that he has a better handle on what the American people really think than do all his critics.  If there was ever any chance that he was going to be convinced that his approach was the wrong one, that election eliminated it.

That's why I can't fathom the unsupported belief that he's going to change his approach just because the same critics keep saying the same things about him now.  Heck, if the GOP gets stomped in the midterms, Trump will point out that he's more popular than Congress, and that the reason the GOP lost Congress was because they didn't support him strongly enough.  And if the GOP holds on to Congress, he'll claim credit for that too.  More importantly, he'll absolutely believe either alternative when he says it.

Expecting this guy to change at this point is a fool's errand.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 04:28:36 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: GOP senator says he 'regularly' considers leaving Republican Party
« Reply #474 on: September 12, 2018, 04:33:03 pm »
Hate to say it but I love what I just posted to @Jazzhead even though I doubt that he loves it that much.

I just challenged him to stop begging for Trump to change and to change himself.

That just may help him realize how hard it is to change.

That was a good point.

I'd imagine that just about all of us, at one point or another, have looked at our posting style and/or things we've said, and thought "boy, I really don't like that, and I'm going to try to change that moving forward."  Yet even if we actually reach that point of saying "I shouldn't have done that", it is still very hard to make such a change, and have it stick.  We tend to slip inexorably back to what we've always done.

Here, Trump hasn't even gotten to the point where he thinks he's wrong.  He thinks he succeeds because of his candid, shoot from the hip style, not in spite of it.   And to be fair, it got him to the Presidency of the United States.  He's now 72 years old, and...does anyone honestly think he's going to do that complete 180 now?