Author Topic: The Intellectual Dark Web  (Read 35660 times)

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Offline roamer_1

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2018, 12:44:23 am »
Hey @verga , over here...

Yoohoo @RoosGirl

Offline Sanguine

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2018, 12:51:54 am »
I do think it is why people don't understand Conservatism anymore. Why so many don't know what it even is, and why so much liberalism is creeping in...

When everything is down to 144 chars or less, all you really can do is rah-rah, or throw poo. WHY one is rah-rahing or throwing poo doesn't even matter after a while.

And, we have been deliberately and effectively dumbed down.  Heck, people don't even recognize thinking when they see it now. 

Offline roamer_1

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2018, 01:02:50 am »
And, we have been deliberately and effectively dumbed down.  Heck, people don't even recognize thinking when they see it now.

@Sanguine
That's right. The knee jerks, and there is no further inquiry. A big part of why political correctness gathers any traction at all... How can people declare 'white privilege' and not even stop to think how very racist they are being. The thought doesn't even occur to them...

Another good guy is Crowder. His 'Change My Mind' series is pretty fun. Not as weighty, as he is speaking to folks on the street... But it's good.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2018, 01:06:20 am »

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2018, 01:14:11 am »
This is *SO* *MUCH* *FUN*!!!
Every single one of these offerings deserves its own thread.
This thread sucks in that we can't pointedly discuss each of these brilliant pieces in depth!
THIS is the heady stuff I miss so much from TOS in her youth.
All the mere Republican blah, blah, blah, and all the pearl-clutching, exasperating news-watch nonsense and feral gossiping, can't hold a candle to this meaty stuff...

This is thinking.

Pinging a few more, some of whom might come back for this sort of platter.

@Smokin Joe
@DCPatriot
@don-o
@Mrs Don-o
@LonestarDream
@nathanbedford

@roamer_1

thanks for the ping...  yeah, this could liven up the discussions and let us find more common ground together.

But the threads should go in Current Events (national new/current events) 

They're certainly "current" and they'd get buried in one of the other sub-categories.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline roamer_1

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2018, 01:26:43 am »
Another one from the left with a terrific mind is Stephan Molyneux... An athiest who argues for the Judeo-Christian ethic.

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2018, 01:30:54 am »
@roamer_1
Thanks for the ping.  I've been watching a lot of Peterson videos lately.  He's an interesting fellow.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2018, 01:31:36 am »
Yes, Molyneux is an interesting guy.

The Failure of Mainstream Media | Dave Rubin and Stefan Molyneux

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Offline Sanguine

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2018, 01:34:36 am »
As for Rubin and Crowder:

        Steven Crowder and Dave Rubin Talk Trump, Cruz, Abortion, and Climate Change (Full Interview)
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        Dave Rubin Fights #SJWs With Crowder | Louder With Crowder
        StevenCrowder
     
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Offline RoosGirl

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2018, 01:35:23 am »
Actually the World View area of History/Archaeology wouldn't be a bad place to put them either.  They fit in with those topics.

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2018, 01:36:59 am »
Actually the World View area of History/Archaeology wouldn't be a bad place to put them either.  They fit in with those topics.

Yep...

Just noticed that it's pinned already...and it's a good place for it.   They're all discussions/opinions. 
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline HoustonSam

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2018, 02:15:37 am »
@HoustonSam  ping

Thank you @roamer_1.

I have followed a few of these people off and on for the past year or so, since I discovered (late to the game) what varied content is available on Youtube.   I no longer watch television in fact.

Jordan Peterson has to be the archetypal example right now, and since his thinking is all about hierarchies and archetypes I'll boldly identify my expression here as distinctly appropriate.  As many certainly know he came to fame for resisting a Canadian law which would make it a crime to refuse to reference people by their chosen pronoun, as is described in the linked article.  Youtube made him famous and I guess Patreon has made him rich.  He engaged in a well-known dialog or two with the atheist Sam Harris, in which they primarily bogged down on a definition of "truth."  Spoiler warning : Harris' definition, truth is that which can be empirically verified, or to include the pure scientific method, that which has not yet been empirically disproven, will be much more compelling to most people, including the Christian believers here on TBR.

Peterson argues that what is true is that which is useful in gaining an orderly, effective perspective on the world.  Truth for Peterson is pragmatic, not empirical.  He's been asked whether he is a Christian and whether he believes in the deity and resurrection of Christ.  In contrast to the forthright positions he takes on freedom of speech and fundamental bases of human thinking and interaction, on the question of Christ he is evasive.  In my mind that doesn't make him a distinctly bad person, but it does give me an important perspective on his thought.  I think Peterson is doing the world a lot of good simply by bringing serious thought to an audience which has never experienced it.

Less noteworthy as a pure intellectual is Ben Shapiro, but I also like and respect what I've seen of him.  His positions on gender disorder are compelling to me and I have adopted them as my own position : you can call yourself anything you want, dress how you want, have any surgery or therapy you want, but you cannot compel me to engage in a delusion you are maintaining; and our culture harms those who engage in these gender disorder delusions by pretending they are anything other than mental illness.

Dave Rubin is probably the figure who is now most challenging to the left, if we exclude Milo Yiannopoulos.  Originally part of "The Young Turks", Rubin left them because he recognized the stifling orthodoxy of people who, with unintentional irony, consider themselves iconoclastic.  I have enjoyed watching some of his interviews with people.  He's openly homosexual, liberal in every sense of the word, but been shouted down at universities because he has the temerity to think beyond identity politics.

Back to Peterson : I wonder whether his ability to use Youtube and Patreon will pioneer a return of discourse to an earlier day, when scholars drew most of their income from "side gigs" of teaching as independent thinkers, based strictly on the reputation they had gained through publication and the skill they displayed in instruction.  Kant, for example, made his living primarily as an independent scholar and teacher for years before he finally became a professor at the University of Konigsberg, at the age of 45 (side note - he put himself through school partially by gambling and playing pool).  Given the now common reliance on part time instructors I wonder whether a new career path is opening for professional academics, some of whom might follow Peterson and arise from the "Intellectual Dark Web".  I hope so.  I spent a number of years in academia myself and found it disappointing.  As demonstrated by Peterson, compelling thought can now be offered to a much wider audience than in Kant's day; we could be living in a time of intellectual revolution which rivals that of Gutenberg.  A key question will be whether the lack of tenure in this old-and-perhaps-new-again pedagogy might be an impediment.  The "gated institutional narrative" is deeply entrenched in the credentialistic nature of formal higher education today and will very difficult, perhaps impossible, to overthrow, but the kind of fundamental thinking eulogized by Weaver in "Ideas Have Consequences" might again be called forth, like Lazarus, by a cadre of thinkers who refuse to conform to an orthodoxy of synthetic outrage.

James 1:20

Offline Sanguine

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2018, 02:22:56 am »
Thank you @roamer_1.

I have followed a few of these people off and on for the past year or so, since I discovered (late to the game) what varied content is available on Youtube.   I no longer watch television in fact.

.............

Great comments, @HoustonSam.

As to Peterson's religious leanings, I think he admits to having been an atheist, but now finds that there has to be God.  I think he is still fairly antagonistic to organized religion.  Not exactly an unusual position.

Offline DB

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2018, 02:37:29 am »
Bookmark.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2018, 02:41:17 am »
How about making "The Intellectual Dark Web" a sub-board in Editorial/Opinion?  This way each video could be posted separately and generate its own discussion. 

@Sanguine



« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 02:42:54 am by Right_in_Virginia »

Offline Sanguine

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2018, 02:43:44 am »
How about making "The Intellectual Dark Web" a sub-board in Editorial/Opinion?  This way each video could be posted separately and generate its own discussion. 

@Sanguine

Good idea.  I like it.  @mystery-ak, can we do that?

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2018, 02:47:40 am »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline HoustonSam

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2018, 02:53:34 am »
I do think it is why people don't understand Conservatism anymore. Why so many don't know what it even is, and why so much liberalism is creeping in...

When everything is down to 144 chars or less, all you really can do is rah-rah, or throw poo. WHY one is rah-rahing or throwing poo doesn't even matter after a while.

The artificial constraints of social media certainly hamper effective thought, but frankly I think Conservatism has failed to articulate a coherent, overarching philosophy.  What single principle unites pro-life, low tax, traditional marriage, RKBA, property rights, strong defense, etc?  And if we could articulate this principle, how would we distinguish the American (more libertarian) version from the on-its-deathbed European (more statist) version?

The traditional definitions of Conservatism frequently hearken back to Edmund Burke's reaction to the French Revolution - established values are worth preserving precisely because they are established.  Richard Weaver posited that Abraham Lincoln was the archetypal Conservative because his thought was principled; but there are principled versions of antithetical thought.  More recent American incarnations tend toward a subsidiarity principle - smaller government is better - or a belief in the importance of religious faith or of social values rooted therein.

The very debates that exist on this forum indicate that there is no single, understood definition of "Conservative", even among a fairly small, self-selected group of contributors who live in the same culture.

At its root, what do we Conservatives believe?
James 1:20

Offline Sanguine

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2018, 02:58:39 am »
...

The very debates that exist on this forum indicate that there is no single, understood definition of "Conservative", even among a fairly small, self-selected group of contributors who live in the same culture.

At its root, what do we Conservatives believe?

You nailed the question, @HoustonSam.  Now for the answer.... :shrug:

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2018, 03:12:30 am »
How about making "The Intellectual Dark Web" a sub-board in Editorial/Opinion?  This way each video could be posted separately and generate its own discussion. 

@Sanguine

How about a broader Category "Videos? The list of IDW members is possibly 8-10 max, whereas there may be over 20 in a category of Live video podcasters, youtubers etc.


Dave Rubin
Jordan Peterson
Joe Rogan
Eric Weinstein
Bret Weinstein
Sam Harris
Brn Shapiro
Claire Lehmann-Quilette
Debra Soh
Heather Heying
Michael Shermer
Steven Pinker
Stefan Molyneux
Dougglas Murray
Majid Nawaz
Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Christina Hoff Summers
Lauren Southern
Tim Pool
Candace Owens
Tommy Sotomayor
Scott Adams
Larry Elder
Victor Davis Hanson
Prager Univ

+Sanquine for moderator?

"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Sanguine

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2018, 03:16:44 am »
How about a broader Category "Videos? The list of IDW members is possibly 8-10 max, whereas there may be over 20 in a category of Live video podcasters, youtubers etc.


Dave Rubin
Jordan Peterson
Joe Rogan
Eric Weinstein
Bret Weinstein
Sam Harris
Brn Shapiro
Claire Lehmann-Quilette
Debra Soh
Heather Heying
Michael Shermer
Steven Pinker
Stefan Molyneux
Dougglas Murray
Majid Nawaz
Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Christina Hoff Summers
Lauren Southern
Tim Pool
Candace Owens
Tommy Sotomayor
Scott Adams
Larry Elder
Victor Davis Hanson
Prager Univ

+Sanquine for moderator?

All true, but the basic concept is better expressed by IDW than Videos.  Particularly since there is not an official IDW membership list.  It can be whatever we decide it is.  Whaddya think?

Offline Bigun

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2018, 03:34:24 am »
The artificial constraints of social media certainly hamper effective thought, but frankly I think Conservatism has failed to articulate a coherent, overarching philosophy.  What single principle unites pro-life, low tax, traditional marriage, RKBA, property rights, strong defense, etc?  And if we could articulate this principle, how would we distinguish the American (more libertarian) version from the on-its-deathbed European (more statist) version?

The traditional definitions of Conservatism frequently hearken back to Edmund Burke's reaction to the French Revolution - established values are worth preserving precisely because they are established.  Richard Weaver posited that Abraham Lincoln was the archetypal Conservative because his thought was principled; but there are principled versions of antithetical thought.  More recent American incarnations tend toward a subsidiarity principle - smaller government is better - or a belief in the importance of religious faith or of social values rooted therein.

The very debates that exist on this forum indicate that there is no single, understood definition of "Conservative", even among a fairly small, self-selected group of contributors who live in the same culture.

At its root, what do we Conservatives believe?

@HoustonSam

I saw this posted on, of all places, Facebook the other day and it's been playing in my head ever since so I'll throw it out as a possible answer to your question


"I want a government that fits inside the Constitution."
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2018, 03:42:14 am »
All true, but the basic concept is better expressed by IDW than Videos.  Particularly since there is not an official IDW membership list.  It can be whatever we decide it is.  Whaddya think?

I am fine anyway. @Sanguine If it takes hold, others will have contributions and good ideas, too. (Joe Rogan probably deserves an X rated warning, but he's a bright guy)

If Mystery will allow a category. I will commit to using it moderately. Start fairly free form.

In the first 15-20 minutes, Peterson refers to "Long format Online Video Audio" as an emerging technology

They have been called "Public Intellectuals"

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« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 03:50:07 am by truth_seeker »
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Sanguine

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2018, 03:44:12 am »
@HoustonSam

I saw this posted on, of all places, Facebook the other day and it's been playing in my head ever since so I'll throw it out as a possible answer to your question


"I want a government that fits inside the Constitution."

Amen, Bigun.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2018, 03:50:36 am »
I have followed a few of these people off and on for the past year or so, since I discovered (late to the game) what varied content is available on Youtube.   I no longer watch television in fact.

Hello @HoustonSam
I am exactly in the same place, albeit with enough technical expertise that I was not late to the game... But I cut the cord to cable maybe some 4 years ago or so, and I can say with profound insistence, that I do not miss it in the least.

Such monochrome babble, and I really do mean it just that way. It is nothing short of mind-numbing indoctrination. I am flatly embarrassed to have ever called it entertainment at all, and am incensed that I shelled out more than a hundred bucks a month for years, nay, decades in such a robot-like fashion. It is, in a word, drivel, from one end to the other. I cannot foresee a moment in my life that I might allow it back into my house.

Now on to the topic.

Quote
Jordan Peterson has to be the archetypal example right now, and since his thinking is all about hierarchies and archetypes I'll boldly identify my expression here as distinctly appropriate. 

I must admit, Jordan Pederson is a curiosity. How he has amassed so much sense anchored in psychology is a wonder to me. I have actually considered going back and re-reading Jung to see where he gets it from. The man has a stunningly clear method to his thought.

Quote
[...] on the question of Christ he is evasive. 

That is not entirely true. He is at least nominally Christian, and has done an extensive exposition in defense of the Christian religion. I will try to find some of it and link it to you... It is really quite good, if you forgive his almost mechanical lapse into analogous psychology (hierarchy and archetypes) , which I can do - It is his wheelhouse after all, and to a hammer, everything is a nail.

Quote
In my mind that doesn't make him a distinctly bad person, but it does give me an important perspective on his thought.  I think Peterson is doing the world a lot of good simply by bringing serious thought to an audience which has never experienced it.

Ah, this. And herein, let's expand the point: Here we are, Conservatives, many rock-ribbed, and hard core, extolling the minds of liberals and libertarians, some even openly gay... WTF is going on??  It is, exactly as you put it, serious thought. It is in fact the lively argument of the town square. And it is awesome. I said up thread that I admire people who think. Those who can begin their premise on a principle thing, and argue it, in the classic sense of argument, whittling it down to a fitting end, to prove that it is true. Alignments have no basis in such a thing. because truth, in the end, is truth. If the liberal gay guy is speaking to Conservative principles, that he is liberal or gay doesn't mean that he isn't speaking the truth. And I am alright with that. I do not have to agree and march in lockstep.

Quote
Less noteworthy as a pure intellectual is Ben Shapiro, but I also like and respect what I've seen of him.

I think Shapiro competes quite nicely in the field of ideas. His tongue is sharp, which is not found in Pederson, nor in Molyneux (who comes from a classical philosophy position), or even Paglia, which can make Shapiro out to be a bit of a bomb-thrower. Like Crowder, he is taking it to the liberals, and credit due - But that makes him more of a thrust and parry guy than a guy arguing the strict idea.

Quote
Dave Rubin is probably the figure who is now most challenging to the left, if we exclude Milo Yiannopoulos. 

Yes that's right - Though he tends to host the debate. He is excellent in that position, interjecting where he might... But he truly listens and encourages the debate with his questions rather than guiding it to an end. It makes him one of my favorite hosts.

As to Yiannopoulos, No where in the field, by my opinion... A showboat and a bomb thrower.

Quote
Back to Peterson : I wonder whether his ability to use Youtube and Patreon will pioneer a return of discourse to an earlier day, when scholars drew most of their income from "side gigs" of teaching as independent thinkers, based strictly on the reputation they had gained through publication and the skill they displayed in instruction. 

I would certainly hope that is what is happening. Professors and Journalists sit upon their fat haunches in ivory towers spinning horrid little tales and repeating them to each other until they all have it memorized. Then someone names a wing, and someone builds a statue, and another useless Nobel prize is issued. And the thing becomes a settled fact, whether it is true or not.

If anything at all, that has to be changed. Truth is what they are supposed to be about.