Author Topic: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA  (Read 7841 times)

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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2018, 04:34:09 pm »
When the laws have become so complex the ordinary citizens cannot understand them, they we are no longer being ruled by "the consent of the governed."  There will be a revolt, eventually.  We have already become stratified into the kind of separate classes we rebelled against in the 18th Century.  Note the superior air of those who would explain to us why white is black and up is down.

 :amen:

A lawyers interpretation of a law or a contract will greatly depend on who is paying him or her.   Lawyers are hell bent on ensuring their own job security and making life for the rest of us less happy.

We need lawyer control.   Just common sense controls for the safety of the women and children.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2018, 04:56:44 pm »
You are exactly and coherently making my case that the disasters of this country's present situation are due to the complexities of laws and the subjective, not necessarily objective, process of continuing a regimenting people into groups.  A lawyer is not more competent to understand a law than anyone else.  If so, then the laws in place need changing.

I view our problems compounded by years of allowing laws to overly complicate this country.  Make it simple.

That engine you need the mechanic to work on is complex as it was designed that way.

Our laws should not be.

Engines “should not” be complex, either.  In the best of all possible worlds everything would be simple enough that everyone could be an expert at everything.

But you aren’t  Voltaire and this is not the best of all possible worlds, it’s just the one we have.  Engines are complex because that’s what it takes to get the performance we get out of them.

The same goes for law.  Are there needlessly complex laws?  Of course.  The garbage Trump tax “reform” is a good example of that.  But it is not possible to reduce the laws needed for our present society to the level of simplicity that everyone can automatically be an expert in every area of law.  It will always be that way, and has been that way at least since Moses brought the Ten Commandments down from the mount.  If you think today’s civil law is complicated, you should try messing around with Torah law, or Canon law.  Good luck. 


Offline INVAR

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2018, 05:15:04 pm »
Attorneys seem to like the fact that our laws are impossibly complex (to "laymen" that is), because their services are required to make sense of them, and lord that superior knowledge of the serfs.  (Note how easily we accept the condescending term "laymen?")  As this becomes more and more pervasive, the more distant we become to the concept of "consent of the governed." 

The "Law" as it exists now, clouds and obscures the simplicity of what was intended to govern us. It is a ball and chain on liberty being imposed in the name of equality and safety.   The system of 'law' that hangs over our heads today, make us all subject to offenses so numerous and onerous, that our ability to live life unmolested by government no longer exists.    Our right to exercise our liberty rests now upon the consent of the government. 


The only question is, how long until the people have had enough of this and start revolting against the tyrannical courts?  The courts and their participants are constantly probing this, to see what they can get away with, like boiling a frog.

In the minds of this people, the Courts are the Ultimate Authority and Last Arbiter of what is is to be done, not done, banned, abolished, forced compliance, restrictor of rights and the establisher of rights.  The people themselves have afforded the Courts and the government this power, because the concept of God and nature's God having the sole Authority over inalienable rights has dwindled to the point of irrelevance among the people, so  government and it's courts now fill that role. 
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Online Bigun

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #53 on: April 28, 2018, 05:21:33 pm »
Quote
"An elective despotism was not the government we fought for; but one in which the powers of government should be so divided and balanced among the several bodies of magistracy as that no one could transcend their legal limits without being effectually checked and restrained by the others."

James Madison Federalist No. 58, 1788

Quote
“No political truth is certainly of greater intrinsic value, or is stamped with the authority of more enlightened patrons of liberty, than that on which the objection is founded. The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, self appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny. Were the federal Constitution, therefore, really chargeable with the accumulation of power, or with a mixture of powers, having a dangerous tendency to such an accumulation, no further arguments would be necessary to inspire a universal reprobation of the system. I persuade myself, however, that it will be made apparent to everyone that the charge cannot be supported, and that the maxim on which it relies has been totally misconceived and misapplied. In order to form correct ideas on this important subject, it will be proper to investigate the sense in which the preservation of liberty requires that the three great departments of power should be separate and distinct.”

Federalist #47 [James Madison]

I note that our government today, all three branches,  is populated, almost entirely, by members of a single profession.  I do not believe that this is as the founders intended.

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Oceander

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #54 on: April 28, 2018, 05:23:19 pm »
James Madison Federalist No. 58, 1788

Federalist #47 [James Madison]

I note that our government today, all three branches,  is populated, almost entirely, by members of a single profession.  I do not believe that this is as the founders intended.



So, what’s the plan?  Kill all the lawyers?

Offline INVAR

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #55 on: April 28, 2018, 05:24:08 pm »
But it is not possible to reduce the laws needed for our present society to the level of simplicity that everyone can automatically be an expert in every area of law.  It will always be that way, and has been that way at least since Moses brought the Ten Commandments down from the mount.  If you think today’s civil law is complicated, you should try messing around with Torah law, or Canon law.  Good luck.

That is biblically incorrect.  It was MEN and the INSTITUTIONS OF MEN who decided that THEY knew better than God how to administer and define how His Laws were to be followed and obeyed that took the simplicity of God's Laws in the Torah and turned them into a self-serving burden upon the people.

This is why Jesus went berserk on the Saducees and Pharisees and the religious leaders whose entire existence of rulership was built upon the Talmudic Traditions of The Elders that supplanted the simplicity and ease of God's Laws as intended.  They made the Law a burden and used it to trample upon those they ruled so as to make their authority unchallenged.

Matthew 23 speaks to that and Christ tore their entire mantle down that they created via precedent.

Nothing new under the sun.  Our courts have done the same thing - and this nation has done to the Constitution what men have done to the scriptures.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Oceander

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #56 on: April 28, 2018, 05:24:54 pm »
That is biblically incorrect.  It was MEN and the INSTITUTIONS OF MEN who decided that THEY knew better than God how to administer and define how His Laws were to be followed and obeyed that took the simplicity of God's Laws in the Torah and turned them into a self-serving burden upon the people.

This is why Jesus went berserk on the Saducees and Pharisees and the religious leaders whose entire existence of rulership was built upon the Talmudic Traditions of The Elders that supplanted the simplicity and ease of God's Laws as intended.  They made the Law a burden and used it to trample upon those they ruled so as to make their authority unchallenged.

Matthew 23 speaks to that and Christ tore their entire mantle down that they created via precedent.

Nothing new under the sun.  Our courts have done the same thing - and this nation has done to the Constitution what men have done to the scriptures.

:bigsilly:

You’re always good for a laugh. 

Online Bigun

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #57 on: April 28, 2018, 05:28:38 pm »
So, what’s the plan?  Kill all the lawyers?

Actually no!  But if it were within my power to do so, they would all definitely be confined to the branch of government they are ALL members of.  The Judicial Branch.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Oceander

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #58 on: April 28, 2018, 05:42:59 pm »
Actually no!  But if it were within my power to do so, they would all definitely be confined to the branch of government they are ALL members of.  The Judicial Branch.

Thank God nothing of any consequence is up to you, then.

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #59 on: April 28, 2018, 06:27:37 pm »
When the laws have become so complex the ordinary citizens cannot understand them, they we are no longer being ruled by "the consent of the governed."  There will be a revolt, eventually.  We have already become stratified into the kind of separate classes we rebelled against in the 18th Century.  Note the superior air of those who would explain to us why white is black and up is down.

The Law has always been complex, and cannot be otherwise without reducing it to the level of simpletons. Ask Cicero, who explored its complexities more than 2000 years ago...don't confuse those who obfuscate the law and seek to hide behind its complexity (Liberals), for those who simply understand its innate intricacies better than you do. The "law" as a concept isn't complex because some in power "want it to be", it is complex because it reflects the vagaries, vastly ranging perspectives, and diverse experiences of those to whom it applies...and of those who interpret it.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 06:28:41 pm by Mesaclone »
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Oceander

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #60 on: April 28, 2018, 06:33:07 pm »
The Law has always been complex, and cannot be otherwise without reducing it to the level of simpletons. Ask Cicero, who explored its complexities more than 2000 years ago...don't confuse those who obfuscate the law and seek to hide behind its complexity (Liberals), for those who simply understand its innate intricacies better than you do. The "law" as a concept isn't complex because some in power "want it to be", it is complex because it reflects the vagaries, vastly ranging perspectives, and diverse experiences of those to whom it applies...and of those who interpret it.

Very, very true.  However, it’s not just liberals who use obfuscation; many in power are tempted to use obfuscation to get what they want without seeming to be quite so venal. 

And at that, it isn’t even necessary to go that far.  Law is written by various human beings, often working in committee, using written language, with all of the vagaries and ambiguities that imports.  Some of the best, as well as some of the worst, law is written by lawyers; much of what is written by non-lawyers is barely passable in many cases.

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #61 on: April 28, 2018, 06:34:15 pm »
James Madison Federalist No. 58, 1788

Federalist #47 [James Madison]

I note that our government today, all three branches,  is populated, almost entirely, by members of a single profession.  I do not believe that this is as the founders intended.

Of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence, 25 were lawyers. Of the 55 framers of the Constitution, 32 were lawyers.

They didn't just "intend" it, they assumed it would be so. They knew the law and its interpretation was complex and nuanced, and fully comprehended that those deeply versed in the law would be well suited to all 3 branches of governance. The failures of our government are not due to the presence of too many lawyers, but rather, it is due to the absence of rationalism and integrity. Those qualities exist without relevance to profession...or religion, for that matter.
We have the best government that money can buy. Mark Twain

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2018, 06:35:03 pm »
Very, very true.  However, it’s not just liberals who use obfuscation; many in power are tempted to use obfuscation to get what they want without seeming to be quite so venal. 

And at that, it isn’t even necessary to go that far.  Law is written by various human beings, often working in committee, using written language, with all of the vagaries and ambiguities that imports.  Some of the best, as well as some of the worst, law is written by lawyers; much of what is written by non-lawyers is barely passable in many cases.

I must agree with all that you've stated here!
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Offline Mesaclone

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2018, 06:39:19 pm »
That is biblically incorrect.  It was MEN and the INSTITUTIONS OF MEN who decided that THEY knew better than God how to administer and define how His Laws were to be followed and obeyed that took the simplicity of God's Laws in the Torah and turned them into a self-serving burden upon the people.

This is why Jesus went berserk on the Saducees and Pharisees and the religious leaders whose entire existence of rulership was built upon the Talmudic Traditions of The Elders that supplanted the simplicity and ease of God's Laws as intended.  They made the Law a burden and used it to trample upon those they ruled so as to make their authority unchallenged.

Matthew 23 speaks to that and Christ tore their entire mantle down that they created via precedent.

Nothing new under the sun.  Our courts have done the same thing - and this nation has done to the Constitution what men have done to the scriptures.

The Ten Commandments were not new or innovative concepts...and were drawn explicitly from previous law codes such as that of Hammurabi, and from Egyptian concepts of justice. In fact, the commandments were less a legal code than a simple restating of what was generally accepted morality throughout the early civilizations of the Middle East. It was primarily unique in its genuflection to monotheism, but its moral code was neither unique nor new. When the Jewish people created the commandments, they were simply drawing on a long tradition of law and morality and attaching it to their conception of monotheism.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 06:40:52 pm by Mesaclone »
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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #64 on: April 28, 2018, 07:26:44 pm »
Thank God nothing of any consequence is up to you, then.

Not at all surprised that you would say that councilor.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 08:37:51 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #65 on: April 28, 2018, 07:37:03 pm »
Not at all surprised that you woul say that councilor.

The truth hurts sometimes.  Such is life.

Offline Chosen Daughter

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #66 on: April 28, 2018, 08:18:47 pm »
Yeah I'm confused too as to how the judge can rule on an EO.

And if IIRC Obama put the sunset deadline into the DACA EO from the start.  All Trump is trying to do is carry out the EO Obama signed...and that includes letting it die.

I don't see it either.  I don't see how the court has anything to do with this.  Sad that it is a judge that Trump appointed and everyone lauded as a Conservative victory.
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Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Oceander

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #67 on: April 28, 2018, 08:22:50 pm »
I don't see it either.  I don't see how the court has anything to do with this.  Sad that it is a judge that Trump appointed and everyone lauded as a Conservative victory.

You don’t see how a federal court has anything to do with a federal executive action? 

Offline Chosen Daughter

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #68 on: April 28, 2018, 08:34:02 pm »
You don’t see how a federal court has anything to do with a federal executive action?

This EO should have just died.  The Federal Court should have nothing to do with it being that there is nothing Constitutional that allows for illegal immigration.  The Constitution is written for the citizens of the United States of America.  There is no protection for non citizens.
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Oceander

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #69 on: April 28, 2018, 08:42:23 pm »
This EO should have just died.  The Federal Court should have nothing to do with it being that there is nothing Constitutional that allows for illegal immigration.  The Constitution is written for the citizens of the United States of America.  There is no protection for non citizens.

To paraphrase the physicist Pauli, that’s so bad it’s not even wrong. 

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #70 on: April 28, 2018, 08:46:41 pm »
I think some people need a refresher course on what exactly according to the Constitution an Executive Order is used for and whom it is supposed to apply to.
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Offline Chosen Daughter

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #71 on: April 28, 2018, 08:49:25 pm »
To paraphrase the physicist Pauli, that’s so bad it’s not even wrong.

How so?  I want to know how the Constitution affords a right to the people who break our laws to come here.  To invade our country.
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Oceander

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #72 on: April 28, 2018, 08:59:04 pm »
How so?  I want to know how the Constitution affords a right to the people who break our laws to come here.  To invade our country.

More that you cannot fathom why a federal court would have jurisdiction over an action taken by a federal official.  Not even Trump is above the law, for all that you want to put him there. 

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #73 on: April 28, 2018, 09:05:31 pm »
More that you cannot fathom why a federal court would have jurisdiction over an action taken by a federal official.  Not even Trump is above the law, for all that you want to put him there.

You didn't answer the question.  Why is it a Federal Court issue?  Obama using EO to deliver an illegitimate law?  You can't use the Constitution to direct something not covered under it.  The thing should have just died.  How can a court rule on something outside of the Constitutional rights afforded to citizens?
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Oceander

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Re: Federal Judge Orders Complete Restart Of DACA
« Reply #74 on: April 28, 2018, 09:26:07 pm »
I think some people need a refresher course on what exactly according to the Constitution an Executive Order is used for and whom it is supposed to apply to.

Yes, you do.