Stop the Bleeding. Preserve the Coal Fleet.

[thackney]

Stop the Bleeding. Preserve the Coal Fleet.
https://www.realclearenergy.org/articles/2018/03/28/stop_the_bleeding_preserve_the_coal_fleet_110282.html

With almost 600 coal plants shut down since 2010, we are racing towards a grid reliability crisis of our own making. Millions of Americans are at risk of electricity price spikes from a loss of energy diversity.

Cheap natural gas, in conjunction with a regulatory onslaught on the coal industry, has reduced coal’s share of our electricity mix to 30 percent — down from 50 percent little more than a decade ago. The loss of coal plants, long the foundation of our electricity system, is coming at a high cost. It has already resulted in the loss oftens of thousands of jobs and hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue for state and local governments. Our growing reliance on natural gas is beginning to stress the grid even further.

Make no mistake, low-cost natural gas has been a blessing for the nation. It has helped reduce utility bills, create jobs in gas-producing states, and improve the competitiveness of our manufacturing sector. But natural gas demand continues to grow while efforts to block new gas production and new natural gas pipelines grow in tandem. Environmental activists waving a keep-it-in-the-ground banner have succeeded in influencing mainstream politics with disastrous consequences for energy policy. Massachusetts is case in point.

The Bay Statehas shuttered its coal fleet, resulting in a disproportionate reliance on natural gas to meet both its electricity and heating needs. On bitterly cold winter days mayhem has ensued. While the U.S. is now the world’s largest natural gas producer. Massachusetts, particularly the Boston area, has at times been home to the most expensive natural gas in the world this winter....

[IsailedawayfromFR]

I have always considered coal as the most reliable of all electricity generation as, unlike natural gas,  one can create a huge stockpile right near the generation site to use.

And reliability of electrical supply must be factored in when making power decisions.

[thackney]

I have always considered coal as the most reliable of all electricity generation as, unlike natural gas,  one can create a huge stockpile right near the generation site to use.

And reliability of electrical supply must be factored in when making power decisions.

While true that coal can more easily stockpile fuel, the also have a lot more mechanical systems.  NatGas Pipelines have a very high reliability factor.  They don't need every compressor station running to maintain flow.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

While true that coal can more easily stockpile fuel, the also have a lot more mechanical systems.  NatGas Pipelines have a very high reliability factor.  They don't need every compressor station running to maintain flow.

Reliability of sending natural gas to power stations must be a lot less during wintertime in the frigid zones due to freezing of lines.  No such component for coal in wintry areas.

[thackney]

Reliability of sending natural gas to power stations must be a lot less during wintertime in the frigid zones due to freezing of lines.  No such component for coal in wintry areas.

Where have you seen Nat Gas Transmission pipeline freeze?  These are not the low pressure systems like a residential service. 

Their meters are straight off the main transmission line, typically rated 1,440 psi.  I've installed a few of those meter station although it has been a few years now since my last one.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Where have you seen Nat Gas Transmission pipeline freeze?  These are not the low pressure systems like a residential service. 

Their meters are straight off the main transmission line, typically rated 1,440 psi.  I've installed a few of those meter station although it has been a few years now since my last one.

Natural gas volumes to supply fuel to power stations for the most part comes directly from producing wells through a series of transmission lines.

I cannot count how many gas wells I have witnessed that freeze up.  Notoriously bad weather during winter storms can impact the amount of gas within a transmission line, while realizing storage systems can make up difference.

[thackney]

Natural gas volumes to supply fuel to power stations for the most part comes directly from producing wells through a series of transmission lines.

No, as far as I now, this is not the case anywhere for a grid power electric power station. 

All Natural Gas Transmission lines are downstream of Gas Plants, where the raw Natural Gas is cleaned up removing liquids and other contaminants.  I've worked in the Midstream Nat Gas industry for a few decades (on and off between other oil/gas/petrochem projects).  I've been the lead engineer for many different major Natural Gas Transmission Pipelines.

I cannot count how many gas wells I have witnessed that freeze up.  Notoriously bad weather during winter storms can impact the amount of gas within a transmission line, while realizing storage systems can make up difference.

Yep, big difference between raw natural gas of the GATHERING line compared the on spec natural gas of a TRANSMISSION line.



Delivery and Storage of Natural Gas
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=natural_gas_delivery

[IsailedawayfromFR]

No, as far as I now, this is not the case anywhere for a grid power electric power station. 

All Natural Gas Transmission lines are downstream of Gas Plants, where the raw Natural Gas is cleaned up removing liquids and other contaminants.  I've worked in the Midstream Nat Gas industry for a few decades (on and off between other oil/gas/petrochem projects).  I've been the lead engineer for many different major Natural Gas Transmission Pipelines.

Yep, big difference between raw natural gas of the GATHERING line compared the on spec natural gas of a TRANSMISSION line.



Delivery and Storage of Natural Gas
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=natural_gas_delivery

your schemical reflects what I said, for the most part a continuum from gas wells to fuel, with only some makeup from gas storage.

Gas wells feed the system continously, and interruptions requires addressing to make up needed volumes.

[thackney]

your schemical reflects what I said, for the most part a continuum from gas wells to fuel, with only some makeup from gas storage.

Gas wells feed the system continously, and interruptions requires addressing to make up needed volumes.

On the Transmission Line, downstream of the Gas Plant, there isn't a shortage of Nat Gas due to freezing of wells.

The only time those systems run into shortages are from demand spiking and exceeding the capacity of that system, like New England this winter.

The storage facilities are not modulating due to wells freezing.  They input in warm months and output in cold month to match the demand of the same cycle.

[Joe Wooten]

Massachusetts is case in point.

The Bay State has shuttered its coal fleet, resulting in a disproportionate reliance on natural gas to meet both its electricity and heating needs. On bitterly cold winter days mayhem has ensued. While the U.S. is now the world’s largest natural gas producer. Massachusetts, particularly the Boston area, has at times been home to the most expensive natural gas in the world this winter....

Let the Yankees freeze in the dark. Actions have consequences. Bad weather shuts down the windmills and PV panels and causes choked flow in the existing gas pipelines as residential users get priority over industrial and utility users. Shutting down the coal plants, or forcing conversion to gas (I know of 2 older coal fired stations here in Northern Illinoisy that have converted), stopping new gas pipelines, and shutting down nuclear plants will have consequences, easily foreseen consequences.

Stupid is as stupid does, but I have a sinking feeling we'll all be called on to bail out those morons.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

On the Transmission Line, downstream of the Gas Plant, there isn't a shortage of Nat Gas due to freezing of wells.

The only time those systems run into shortages are from demand spiking and exceeding the capacity of that system, like New England this winter.

The storage facilities are not modulating due to wells freezing.  They input in warm months and output in cold month to match the demand of the same cycle.

Well, if well production which flows on a continuous basis via plants and lines is suddenly arrested, there are indeed consequences.

I believe the correct answer is that there is more well deliverability than what is actually provided on any given day, so there is makeup available from shut in or cut back wells when something happens.

A grid also gives the capability to shift transmission elsewhere.

I do agree with you that transmission lines, not gathering lines, are the real threat to the supply of fuel to the generating stations.

Am glad that there is never any problem with transmission lines to do that.

[thackney]

...Am glad that there is never any problem with transmission lines to do that.

Now I won't say never ANY problem.  But the lines freezing up are not the issue.

Blowing up, that happens every once in a great while...

[thackney]

I believe the correct answer is that there is more well deliverability than what is actually provided on any given day, so there is makeup available from shut in or cut back wells when something happens.

Also not that unlike a power line or a liquids pipeline, there is significant storage capacity in the pipeline itself to handle short term make-up.

500~1,000 miles of 30" (up to a couple 42") pipeline can deliver quite a lot of gas dropping the pressure from 1,100 to 800 psi without anything coming in.  It has to be made up, but in the short run, gas pipelines have some flexibility that other energy transportation systems do not.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Yep, the power of compressed fluids.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

I live in the Boston area. I relied on pellets to get me through the winter. Liberalism ruins all that it touches.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Now I won't say never ANY problem.  But the lines freezing up are not the issue.

Blowing up, that happens every once in a great while...

Just saw this one, where freezing became a major problem with cold snap this winter. 

Cold weather gripping much of the United States is denting natural gas production in the nation’s shale patches, with output of the heating fuel down more than 20 percent since last month in North Dakota’s Bakken region, according to analyst estimates.

The United States relies more on natural gas than coal for heating and has ramped up exports of liquefied natural gas.

Flows of natural gas on interstate pipelines out of North Dakota dropped to about 1 billion cubic feet per day (bcfd) on Tuesday, down from about 1.3 bcfd on Dec. 25, according to Genscape data. One bcfd is enough gas to fuel about five million U.S. homes.

“That drop is due to the freeze off we’re seeing,” said Andrew Bradford of BTU Analytics, an energy consultancy.

Natural gas production often can be affected by water vapor in pipeline systems freezing and hindering the flow of gas. Unlike crude oil, gas must be piped immediately to a processing facility.

https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-weather-energy/cold-chills-u-s-shale-gas-production-as-heating-demand-jumps-idUSL1N1OX0OX

[thackney]

Just saw this one, where freezing became a major problem with cold snap this winter. 
https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-weather-energy/cold-chills-u-s-shale-gas-production-as-heating-demand-jumps-idUSL1N1OX0OX

Natural gas production often can be affected by water vapor in pipeline systems freezing and hindering the flow of gas. Unlike crude oil, gas must be piped immediately to a processing facility.

So the transmission lines keep flowing, but less gas gets to the processing plants feeding the transmission line.

That is not shutting down Power Plants.  That is moving gas around in the transmission system to overcome a regional issue. 



I still don't recall a gas power plant being shut down for lack of a gas supply. 

Perhaps in a case where a governmental entity overcomes a bottleneck and spiking residential demand to give priority.  A case where gas exists in the pipeline for the plant to draw, but the government shuts it down for users downstream. 

That would almost always be a case of insufficient transmission lines in an area where environMENTALists block the construction.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

So the transmission lines keep flowing, but less gas gets to the processing plants feeding the transmission line.

That is not shutting down Power Plants.  That is moving gas around in the transmission system to overcome a regional issue. 



I still don't recall a gas power plant being shut down for lack of a gas supply. 

Perhaps in a case where a governmental entity overcomes a bottleneck and spiking residential demand to give priority.  A case where gas exists in the pipeline for the plant to draw, but the government shuts it down for users downstream. 

That would almost always be a case of insufficient transmission lines in an area where environMENTALists block the construction.

Well, I never really said that lacking optimum fuel to a power plant would shut down a power plant. 

All I ever suggested is that a coal fired power plant is more capable of always having sufficient fuel available as it can be stored on location vs a gas fired plant which demands a pipeline to supply it.

[thackney]

Well, I never really said that lacking optimum fuel to a power plant would shut down a power plant. 

All I ever suggested is that a coal fired power plant is more capable of always having sufficient fuel available as it can be stored on location vs a gas fired plant which demands a pipeline to supply it.

I'm not trying to find an argument, I know we are on the same team.

But in terms of reliability of power plant running, where we started, I don't see any advantage of a coal over Nat Gas based upon fuel source.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

But in terms of reliability of power plant running, where we started, I don't see any advantage of a coal over Nat Gas based upon fuel source.

No argument there.

BTW, took a recent trip to Israel and saw the results first hand of the Natural Gas discovered and now producing offshore in the Mediterranean.

Huge power plant on coast had three of its four generators now running on natural gas rather than coal.

Must be God's blessing poured over the country.