Author Topic: Broward Sheriff's office's active shooter protocol does not require a deputy to engage the shooter.  (Read 1572 times)

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Offline XenaLee

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@XenaLee
You don't need a seal team in this situation. You might need swat if they're close but more than likely the only officers in a position to help are the normal every day street cop.

Who should certainly be more proficient with tactics and his firearm then every single one of the people responsible for the school shootings we've seen.

Of course you don't.  Anyone that says otherwise is .... wrong. (and I'm being nice here)

No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Offline driftdiver

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Of course you don't.  Anyone that says otherwise is .... wrong. (and I'm being nice here)

@XenaLee
Yep, if you had a bunch of ISIS, Taliban type people holding up in a school.  Well then ok you might need some big firepower.

One guy?   Maybe swat if he has hostages in a room.

A guy like this?   We know he dropped the gun somewhere and escaped in the rush of kids.   So the mere presence of police officers outside stopped him.

How many kids would be alive if one cop had gone inside and challenged him?
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Offline XenaLee

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@XenaLee
Yep, if you had a bunch of ISIS, Taliban type people holding up in a school.  Well then ok you might need some big firepower.

One guy?   Maybe swat if he has hostages in a room.

A guy like this?   We know he dropped the gun somewhere and escaped in the rush of kids.   So the mere presence of police officers outside stopped him.

How many kids would be alive if one cop had gone inside and challenged him?

We will never know..... thanks to the gutless wonder deputies... and thanks to the leftist policies of the lefties that run that county.   What pisses me off... is the misdirection of anger and blame towards the NRA vs. towards those actually responsible for deliberately dropping the ball.

No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Online roamer_1

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@roamer_1
We've heard that before.  The cops act as if there could be a massive assault team on every one of these shootings.  So they stop and collect all their troops.  Meanwhile the shooter continues to shot.

In every case following Columbine there was only one shooter.  Even then the two killers traveled together.

No the tactics used by police are there to protect cops, not people.   They have decided its acceptable to trade the lives of our children rather then risk one cops life going after a shooter.

In this case a single cop could easily have stopped the shooting. The other police dept did enter the building upon arrival and perhaps they did stop it.

@driftdiver
Hindsight is 20/20. I don't care to blame anyone (other than the shooter). I am just looking at the reality of it.

Six minutes. Response time is probably 3 minutes at best. That means it is half over before you even get your ass out of your squad car. Even gearing up in the remaining time, not to mention gaining entry, traversing the building, finding, and getting TO the shooter to stop him in the time remaining is approaching an absurdity.

And as I said, heroism is frowned upon in LEOs. That is being bred out of them. Their reliance on overwhelming force and rigid protocols train them otherwise.

Expecting otherwise from them is a waste of time, even without the dire circumstance.

My point though, is that this entire blame game is pointless.
The problem is six minutes.
The only and obvious answer is that the only reasonable response necessarily must come from within.  That means that the solution is in ending the gun free zone. And the more folks argue otherwise, and lay the blame elsewhere, the more kids will die.  :shrug:
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 09:11:45 pm by roamer_1 »

Offline truth_seeker

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And as I said, heroism is frowned upon in LEOs. That is being bred out of them. Their reliance on overwhelming force and rigid protocols train them otherwise.


Being rid of heroism, started during WWII. Instead of climbing from WWI trenches and charging into machine gun fires, we got better leadership and tactics.

On the macro level, Eisenhower allowed the Soviets to take Berlin, rather than sacrifice tens of thousands of allied lives.

The police tactic I detest, is failure to respond to those dozens of warnings, by several branches of LEOs.

"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline truth_seeker

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In Waco they should have arrested Koresh

I was discussing the Waco biker shootout of just a few years ago. I should have been more clear.

@driftdiver

"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline RoosGirl

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1. Lost Angeles 1992 Rodney King riots: Police got much criticism, when they effectively retreated from danger, in order to regroup, strengthen, then return with enough force to deal with matters.

2. A neighbor and friend of mine, now retired city police officer (following 20 years in LAPD) was first on scene, of a July 4th riot. Young people burning couches in the street, etc. He was outnumbered as one versus perhaps 200. He followed policies, got away fast. Then with adequate force, they cam back and stopped the riot.

I am NOT excusing the behavior of the single campus cop, or the 4 sheriff dept. officers.

The responding officers, don't know how many shooters are involved.

Didn't the school resource officer see Cruz with his duffle bag prior to entering the school?  He knew who the kid was and would have had a good inkling he was by himself.

Offline driftdiver

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@driftdiver
Hindsight is 20/20. I don't care to blame anyone (other than the shooter). I am just looking at the reality of it.

Six minutes. Response time is probably 3 minutes at best. That means it is half over before you even get your ass out of your squad car. Even gearing up in the remaining time, not to mention gaining entry, traversing the building, finding, and getting TO the shooter to stop him in the time remaining is approaching an absurdity.

And as I said, heroism is frowned upon in LEOs. That is being bred out of them. Their reliance on overwhelming force and rigid protocols train them otherwise.

Expecting otherwise from them is a waste of time, even without the dire circumstance.

My point though, is that this entire blame game is pointless.
The problem is six minutes.
The only and obvious answer is that the only reasonable response necessarily must come from within.  That means that the solution is in ending the gun free zone. And the more folks argue otherwise, and lay the blame elsewhere, the more kids will die.  :shrug:

@roamer_1
I don't disagree that gun free zones are killers.

My point is that the cops are treating every single one of these as if its an attack by a team of terrorists.

When not a single one has been.   Sandy Hook, Pulse Nightclub and this one.  In every case the cops did not enter for at least several minutes after arrival.   
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Online roamer_1

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Being rid of heroism, started during WWII. Instead of climbing from WWI trenches and charging into machine gun fires, we got better leadership and tactics.

But in six minutes, the only tactic IS to climb out of the trench, and is likely to fail to produce a result anyway.

Quote
The police tactic I detest, is failure to respond to those dozens of warnings, by several branches of LEOs.


Ahh. Thought police. How does that work if there was nothing actionable?

Online roamer_1

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I totally disagree.  Cops (at least, 'some' cops) are more than capable of handling a school shooter such as Cruz.  I don't know where you're getting your disinformation.

I am not disparaging individuals. I am talking about the law enforcement entity.  Individual cops are probably prevented by protocol.

Quote
And I ask again... if not going in and trying to save kids from being gunned down...
what the hell ARE they being paid for?

Body bags and criminal investigation, capture, and handling.  We must be disabused of the notion that cops are going to save anyone. As a rule, they don't. And the notion that they do is what causes people to be ill equipped to save themselves.

Online roamer_1

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You don't need a seal team in this situation.  You might need swat if they're close but more than likely the only officers in a position to help are the normal every day street cop.


@driftdiver
As a point of order, that is not what I said.

Offline driftdiver

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@driftdiver
As a point of order, that is not what I said.

@roamer_1
I'm actually having to work today so I probably missed it.  My apologies.
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Online roamer_1

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@roamer_1
I don't disagree that gun free zones are killers.

My point is that the cops are treating every single one of these as if its an attack by a team of terrorists.

When not a single one has been.   Sandy Hook, Pulse Nightclub and this one.  In every case the cops did not enter for at least several minutes after arrival.

@driftdiver
Protocol develops around force protection and law suits...

Columbine had bombs that didn't go off, but were intended to.
It is common for terrorists to lure first-responders and set off a second assault.

It is not uncommon for cities/counties/and LEO organizations to be sued for unintended consequences. And many unintended consequences occur in the fog of battle. A child unintentionally shot by an officer is a huge cost, regardless of the rightness of the overall action.

So these things are mitigated before the fact. A Pavlovian effect.

It may be right or wrong, but there it is.


 

Offline The_Reader_David

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And this has been one of the problems in this country since Warren v. District of Columbia:  police have no legal duty to protect anyone.  Until the legislature of the several states make the protection of the public, in addition to the enforcement of the law (retrospectively by arresting suspected law-breakers), part of police duties, redefining them to be peace officers, rather than merely law enforcement officers, the problem of protocols that don't require police to intervene in violent situations, and the problem of police themselves harming members of the public will persist.
And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know what this was all about.

Online roamer_1

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@roamer_1
I'm actually having to work today so I probably missed it.  My apologies.

 :beer:

Offline XenaLee

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I am not disparaging individuals. I am talking about the law enforcement entity.  Individual cops are probably prevented by protocol.

Body bags and criminal investigation, capture, and handling.  We must be disabused of the notion that cops are going to save anyone. As a rule, they don't. And the notion that they do is what causes people to be ill equipped to save themselves.

Ok.... now that sounds more reasonable.   ^-^
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You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Online roamer_1

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And this has been one of the problems in this country since Warren v. District of Columbia:  police have no legal duty to protect anyone.  Until the legislature of the several states make the protection of the public, in addition to the enforcement of the law (retrospectively by arresting suspected law-breakers), part of police duties, redefining them to be peace officers, rather than merely law enforcement officers, the problem of protocols that don't require police to intervene in violent situations, and the problem of police themselves harming members of the public will persist.

No better exemplified than by 'To Protect and Serve' being removed from patrol cars...

Offline Bigun

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Disregarding all other things, I do not know how ANY grown "man"  with a firearm readily at  hand could ever stand by and allow something like this to transpire.  Doesn't compute with me.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 12:15:05 am by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline driftdiver

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Disregarding all other things, I do not know how ANY grown "man"  with a firearm readily at  hand could ever stand by and allow something like this to transpire.  Doesn't compute with me.

They are told everyday that their lives are more important.  Certainly exceptions but they aren't encouraged.
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Offline The_Reader_David

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No better exemplified than by 'To Protect and Serve' being removed from patrol cars...

Unfortunately that motto has no force of law behind it.  Since Warren v. D.C. it has been fraudulent advertising.  All police cars bearing it should be repainted "To arrest suspects and seize their assets" until some serious reforms of the role of police are undertaken.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 02:25:50 am by The_Reader_David »
And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know what this was all about.

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Offline mountaineer

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Active shooting scene? We don't need no steenkin' cops - or even medical assistance.
Quote
Florida EMTs Say Broward Sheriff Blocked Medics From Treating Gunned Down Students Inside School
Posted on February 26, 2018

Three high-ranking Florida officials close to the law enforcement response at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School tell Fox News there was a delay in Emergency Medical Service getting into the school in the critical moments after Nikolas Cruz allegedly opened fire, killing 17 people and wounding at least 14 others.

Two separate sources told Fox News some of the EMS teams who requested to enter the school were told they could not. One source said it was the Broward County Sheriff’s Office – which was the commanding office – that ordered some of the EMS crews not to go into the school when they requested to enter.  ...
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Offline driftdiver

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Active shooting scene? We don't need no steenkin' cops - or even medical assistance.

EMTs are never allowed into a scene until its secured. 

The cops are expected to be working to secure it.  In many cases they seem more likely to be simply waiting for the shooting to stop before they go in.
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Offline mountaineer

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It's my understanding the shooting was long over and the sheriff still denied the EMTs access to aid the wounded. Will see if I can find verification of that, however.
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