Author Topic: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates  (Read 5623 times)

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Online Bigun

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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #150 on: February 01, 2018, 05:45:12 PM »
Ahem..... Lincoln INVADED the South long before he made slavery a cassus belli to continue the war to force the South back into the Union.   

When was the firing on Fort Sumpter and the First Battle of Manassas? 

When was the Emancipation Proclamation given?

Slavery was just the excuse Lincoln used to continue to wage the war when he was losing support for it in the North.

Taxing the slaves and plantation owners at the behest of the industrial Northern states were the actions that led to the South Seceding. 

The war itself was fought by Lincoln to return by force - the Southern states into a compact the federal government violated in the first place.

America has been an imperial power instead of a true republic ever since.

And THAT ladies and gentlemen is the unvarnished TRUTH of the matter!

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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #151 on: February 01, 2018, 05:50:20 PM »
Ahem..... Lincoln INVADED the South long before he made slavery a cassus belli to continue the war to force the South back into the Union.   

When was the firing on Fort Sumpter and the First Battle of Manassas? 

When was the Emancipation Proclamation given?

Slavery was just the excuse Lincoln used to continue to wage the war when he was losing support for it in the North.

Taxing the slaves and plantation owners at the behest of the industrial Northern states were the actions that led to the South Seceding. 

The war itself was fought by Lincoln to return by force - the Southern states into a compact the federal government violated in the first place.

America has been an imperial power instead of a true republic ever since.

But much of his support came from abolitionists even prior to the E.P.
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Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #152 on: February 01, 2018, 05:53:10 PM »

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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #153 on: February 01, 2018, 06:11:34 PM »



Awww....bless your little heart...you tried to make a funny...

How cute. Keep practicing, son, and you might succeed someday!
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Online catfish1957

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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #154 on: February 01, 2018, 07:29:15 PM »
@catfish1957

Isn't that flag upside down?  Star standing on its head?

Holy mackerel, you are right.  The resident southern heritage defender gets docked 3 points.   :whistle:

Need to proof my posting better.
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Online sneakypete

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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #155 on: February 01, 2018, 07:39:38 PM »
**nononono*

Just going on history and the data and reality.


https://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/cotton-gin-patent

@Suppressed

You use a government database to prove the War of Northern Aggression was about slavery? These are the same people that taught you that Lincoln freed the slaves with the Emancipation Proclamation!
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Online sneakypete

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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #156 on: February 01, 2018, 07:42:37 PM »

Stephens wasn't just some dude.  He was the VP of the confederacy, openly stating the natural state of blacks was to be inferior of whites.  He was a literal white supremacist, declaring that philosophy to being an essential part of the confederate foundation.  If the Civil War had a different outcome, they wouldn't have said, "Oh, well....nevermind.  Y'all are free and can vote, too."

@edpc

So,are you trying to claim he would have insisted everybody keep slaves as pets after it became economically impossible to keep them as slaves?

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Offline Suppressed

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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #157 on: February 01, 2018, 07:45:18 PM »
@Suppressed

You use a government database to prove the War of Northern Aggression was about slavery? These are the same people that taught you that Lincoln freed the slaves with the Emancipation Proclamation!

The numbers are real.  Show me they aren't.
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Online edpc

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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #158 on: February 01, 2018, 07:48:30 PM »
@edpc So,are you trying to claim he would have insisted everybody keep slaves as pets after it became economically impossible to keep them as slaves?


In perpetual servitude of some kind - yes.
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Online sneakypete

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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #159 on: February 01, 2018, 07:56:00 PM »
Quote
The question was whether we'd have had a war if there hadn't been slavery.


The answer is "Yes". The war was all about the northern banks and industrialists desire to steal land and resources from the south. "Reconstruction" was the biggest criminal act of the 19th Century. The north came in as an army of occupation and installed yankee politicians in positions of power from the local courthouse to the state governments. The new sheriffs and judges declared all loans due immediately to avoid foreclosure by taking the notices on the courthouse doors,knowing full well that soldiers who hadn't been paid in months and who had been away from home for years had no money,and most of them weren't even home yet. As a result the carpetbaggers were seizing valuable property for just a few dollars because no one else was allowed to bid.

The same with existing businesses. Local businessmen woke up one day and discovered they had new partners whose only contribution was to have their hands out and a promise to keep the sheriff from shutting them down.

IIRC,this was when the Rockefeller family bought up Colonial Williamsburg for back taxes.

The feral government was behind this 100 percent because they wanted to dominate without question.


Quote
Are you arguing that the South wouldn't have seceded?


Based on what? That's a pretty open-ended question.

 
Quote
Or that that Lincoln wouldn't have started the war when the South seceded without slavery?

When did the south secede without slavery? You are not making any sense.

Quote
I'm suggesting that the South might still have seceded without slavery,

Probably. The northern bankers were intent on financially raping the south and taking over control of the nations wealth,and the feral government was determined to make everyone their slaves.

 
Quote
but there would have been a more difficult time for Lincoln to invade if there hadn't been slavery.

Naw,they had the norther banks,the newspapers,and the force of the feral government behind them. They would have came up with something if they had to create the issue themselves. Lincoln never wanted the war,but he seemed to be one of the few that didn't.
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Online sneakypete

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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #160 on: February 01, 2018, 07:59:08 PM »
But much of his support came from abolitionists even prior to the E.P.

@Suppressed

If you define support as a propaganda source you can utilize to sell a lie,I guess they were a big help. If no such source existed and slavery didn't even exist,the north would have found some other excuse to start the war.
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Online sneakypete

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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #161 on: February 01, 2018, 08:01:57 PM »
The numbers are real.  Show me they aren't.

@Suppressed

ROFLMAO! Ever heard the expression "People figure and numbers lie"?

Just look at  how much trouble we have today in a world full of computers to even get our politicians to agree on budget numbers.
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Online sneakypete

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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #162 on: February 01, 2018, 08:04:43 PM »

In perpetual servitude of some kind - yes.

@edpc

Ok,if that is what you think,that is what you think. That situation never developed,so we will never know if it would have happened or not.

Personally,I don't see it. It would have bankrupted too many people,but who really knows the details of how something that never happened would have been done?
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #163 on: February 01, 2018, 08:32:05 PM »
@Suppresed

And that is where you started going wrong.

The Cotton Gin greatly reduced the number of workers/slaves needed to pick and process cotton.   The first one was build around 1800,but the exact date is not nailed down.

Guess what was first built in 1812? The first tractor. Yeah,it was a steam-powered dangerous monstrosity,but a blind man could see where slavery was going. The first one was produced in 1812,and by 1839 a mobile tractor was on the market. VERY crude and under-powered by today's standards,but how many horses pulling plows would it take to plow as many furrows in one day as the steam-powered tractor? And you have to know that on the first day it hit the fields pulling a plow,people started trying to figure out how to make it plant crops,too.This was 22 years BEFORE the Civil War began.

Slavery was on the way out,and anybody that bothered to look could see it. Machines might cost more to buy than slaves,but they don't get sick and they don't need overseers,and you don't have to provide them with food,clothing,shelter,and medical care. Putting moral issues aside,it just didn't make financial sense to keep buying and working slaves once mechanical planters and pickers  hit the fields. How many slaves do you think it would take to do the same amount of work in a 12 hour day in 1837 as a steam-powered tractor pulling a plow,followed by one pulling a planter?

Ever heard of a little company named John Deere? Formed in 1837 to make steel plow blades for farming,by 1853 the company was manufacturing a variety of farm equipment products in addition to plows, including wagons, corn planters, and cultivators.  By 1912 they were making 4wd gasoline powered tractors,but they were by far not the first. As noted above,tractors started being manufactured and sold in 1837. Remind me again when The War of Northern Aggression began. While you are looking this up,look up what types of mechanical farm machinery was in production at that time.

Granted,small farmers couldn't afford tractors,Cotton Gins,planters,etc,etc,etc,but they couldn't afford slaves,either. I don't know how accurate this figure is,but I have read that a healthy young black male slave could sell for $3,000 in 1860 money. That was a HELL of a lot of money in 1860. In fact,there were already a lot of freed slaves in the south in 1860. Not that it benefited them much. For the most part they had no education or work experience that wasn't related to farm work,and being freed slaves they pretty much had to either head north or live close to where they had been slaves so they could be hired as seasonal workers when the crops needed to be planted or picked. Like with the poor whites at the time,it was pretty much a hand to mouth existence.
@sneakypete
Yep. Especially the parts in bold. Manumission (freeing slaves) was on the upswing in Maryland just prior to the invasion, partly because the types of crops had changed. While tobacco continued to be grown there until the "Tobacco Lawsuit/Settlement"--and still is by Amish who didn't sell out and promise to not grow tobacco again for a lump sum, the areas near Washington DC and Baltimore were shifting their emphasis to produce to sell in the cities (for even better money, and requiring a smaller labor force). The result, as you point out, is that people did the math, and set free the labor they formerly had to provide housing, food, clothing, and medical care for. Hire them back at wages, it was cheaper and there was no obligation to care for them if they could not work.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 08:32:59 PM by Smokin Joe »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #164 on: February 01, 2018, 08:45:01 PM »
The question was whether we'd have had a war if there hadn't been slavery.  Are you arguing that the South wouldn't have seceded?  Or that that Lincoln wouldn't have started the war when the South seceded without slavery?

I'm suggesting that the South might still have seceded without slavery, but there would have been a more difficult time for Lincoln to invade if there hadn't been slavery.
It gave the Union an eventual "moral" excuse to invade the South, and eventually carpetbag the means of production by taxing the burned out properties away from their owners*, provided the owners even survived the war.
Slavery was a convenient smokescreen for their economic motives, and it remains that smokescreen to this day. Had slavery been the seminal issue, why did Lincoln wait until 1863 to try to free the slaves in the South with a proclamation over an area over which he did not have authority? If this was such an issue, it should have been first and foremost, right from the git-go, and that attempt should have been the first shot of the war.


(*Back taxes were also used as an excuse to steal over ten million acres from my wife's people, too. Great system to steal land with. Not so great if it is your land being stolen.)
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #165 on: February 01, 2018, 08:52:07 PM »
And THAT ladies and gentlemen is the unvarnished TRUTH of the matter!
@INVAR @Bigun Yep. Maryland was invaded first by units from the armies of PA and MA,  at Lincoln's behest, which ignited the Pratt Street Riots in Baltimore and resulted in the first casualties of the war.

(As an aside, "Militia" meant "army" in those days, and every State had one. The MD Governor was in cahoots with Lincoln and refused to call out the MD Militia, instead having told them to place their gear in the armories, where it was seized.)
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #166 on: February 01, 2018, 08:56:13 PM »
@edpc

Ok,if that is what you think,that is what you think. That situation never developed,so we will never know if it would have happened or not.

Personally,I don't see it. It would have bankrupted too many people,but who really knows the details of how something that never happened would have been done?
Yeah, we would have ended up with a system where people provided food, housing, clothing, and medical care to people who did not work. Gee, that would be a mess.


oh, wait....
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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #167 on: February 01, 2018, 09:14:50 PM »
Yeah, we would have ended up with a system where people provided food, housing, clothing, and medical care to people who did not work. Gee, that would be a mess.


oh, wait....


Which leaves them dependent on a master to provide.  Interesting.....
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Offline austingirl

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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #168 on: February 01, 2018, 09:15:31 PM »
Yeah, we would have ended up with a system where people provided food, housing, clothing, and medical care to people who did not work. Gee, that would be a mess.


oh, wait....

@Smokin Joe

Exactly- the new plantation -the federal government.
Principles matter. Words matter.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #169 on: February 01, 2018, 09:36:04 PM »

Which leaves them dependent on a master to provide.  Interesting.....
European immigrants were the death knell for slavery. I recall reading where slaves were not put in the holds of ships while stacking cargo because they represented too great an investment. Someone working for wages could be replaced far cheaper if the hogshead of tobacco rolled on them.

The idea of paying wages and letting people fend for their own provender from those wages was coming, and though it may have taken a few decades, slavery was on its way out.

The same concepts led to such ideas as the Company Store and Company Housing. All the labor, none of the initial investment, and little expense (the money came back to the Company), but that tended to be a more northern thing.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #170 on: February 01, 2018, 09:37:44 PM »
@Smokin Joe

Exactly- the new plantation -the federal government.
It has become that. Spoils of war and all that.
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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #171 on: February 01, 2018, 09:40:34 PM »
@sneakypete
Yep. Especially the parts in bold. Manumission (freeing slaves) was on the upswing in Maryland just prior to the invasion, partly because the types of crops had changed. While tobacco continued to be grown there until the "Tobacco Lawsuit/Settlement"--and still is by Amish who didn't sell out and promise to not grow tobacco again for a lump sum, the areas near Washington DC and Baltimore were shifting their emphasis to produce to sell in the cities (for even better money, and requiring a smaller labor force). The result, as you point out, is that people did the math, and set free the labor they formerly had to provide housing, food, clothing, and medical care for. Hire them back at wages, it was cheaper and there was no obligation to care for them if they could not work.

Exactly.  It wasn't the cotton gin of the 18th century that did it.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #172 on: February 01, 2018, 09:59:37 PM »
Exactly.  It wasn't the cotton gin of the 18th century that did it.
Well, that was just one state. Cotton wasn't king in MD, tobacco was. There has never been a machine devised to harvest tobacco, it's all stoop labor. Been there, done that, and made good money doing it (7 bucks an hour in 1974). But ultimately, with the influx of cheap white folks working for wages, ownership was going the way of the dodo.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 10:01:25 PM by Smokin Joe »
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Re: 3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
« Reply #173 on: February 01, 2018, 10:25:07 PM »
 :th_10444:

Which leaves them dependent on a master to provide.  Interesting.....

@edpc

And the circle is closed.
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