Author Topic: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case  (Read 44257 times)

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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #550 on: January 04, 2018, 03:56:52 pm »
The bakers didn't impose their religious beliefs on anyone.  They never compelled the homosexual couples to participate in any belief, ceremony, or ritual, nor did they they inhibit the homosexual couples from participating in their own relationships, or from holding a wedding ceremony, or from procuring a wedding cake elsewhere.

The bakers did not impose, but they were imposed upon.

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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #551 on: January 04, 2018, 04:01:00 pm »
@Jazzhead
Following Gods law is not bigotry.   Or are you calling God a bigot?   After all his word does use the word abomination when referring to homosexual behavior.   God is please by people following his law.

Let God be the judge of a human being's merits for salvation.   That's not your responsibility, nor the responsibility of this damn-fool baker.   For a baker to abuse his innocent customer by calling her an abomination isn't "following God's law",  it's acting like a cruel and heartless ABOMINATION of a Christian.

A real Christian, obedient to God's message, would serve this customer like he would any other.   Stop spouting your arrogant nonsense that you and you alone know what pleases God.     
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #552 on: January 04, 2018, 04:07:09 pm »
Let God be the judge of a human being's merits for salvation.   That's not your responsibility, nor the responsibility of this damn-fool baker.   For a baker to abuse his innocent customer by calling her an abomination isn't "following God's law",  it's acting like a cruel and heartless ABOMINATION of a Christian.

A real Christian, obedient to God's message, would serve this customer like he would any other.   Stop spouting your arrogant nonsense that you and you alone know what pleases God.   

@Jazzhead
The baker wasn't judging.  The baker was saying its against my religion to engage in that behavior because according to Gods law their behavior is an abomination.

Telling someone their sin is good is not Christian.

Please turn away from your bigotry and hatred.  Jesus died for your sins and would welcome you to the fold.
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Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #553 on: January 04, 2018, 04:08:17 pm »
And such are the wages of religious bigotry.   

A real Christians would have helped this woman celebrate the start of her new family.   A real Christian would have created the most beautiful cake in the world for this woman.   

Actually @Jazzhead you aren't the arbiter of "real" Christianity.  You are of course free to advocate and practice your own interpretation of it, but some of us strive to accept what we understand to be the revealed Word of God in its entirety, including the first chapter of Romans.  Love for others is not the same thing as niceness to others, particularly if that niceness avoids hard truths.  There are hard truths in The Word that I don't like either, but "real" Christianity actually means accepting that God is sovereign, not me, so whether or not those hard truths hurt my feelings is simply not relevant to faith.

Nor are hurt feelings relevant to policy.  I'll agree that the baker's comment to the woman was unnecessarily provocative, but he didn't call her an abomination and he is not accountable for her belief that his faith is somehow about making her feel bad.  In fact his faith is not about her at all.  You've argued, persuasively and effectively, that identity politics are harmful, and I join you in that conclusion.  Perhaps the first step in repealing identity politics is not hoping for a clear decision from the Supreme Court, but instead recognizing that identity politics are to a large extent merely solipsism writ large, the self-absorbed insistence that everyone else's beliefs and values are somehow about me.  Soothing the corresponding hurt feelings is not an effective basis for establishing policy, and certainly not an effective basis for preserving ordered liberty.  We seem to be trying to build the edifice of law upon a foundation of emotion.  It is simply not going to work.

"Real" Christianity is actually about humbling one's self to remain within God's will, as Christ did, and the real test is when His will includes some things we don't like; perhaps the baker failed at this in his remarks.  Using the instruments of law to compel others to demonstrate respect for us fails as well, and I would argue even worse so.
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Offline Restored

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #554 on: January 04, 2018, 04:08:29 pm »
Quote
For a baker to abuse his innocent customer by calling her an abomination isn't "following God's law",  it's acting like a cruel and heartless ABOMINATION of a Christian.

He never called her an Abomination so your self-righteous virtue signaling is unmerited.
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #555 on: January 04, 2018, 04:10:32 pm »
How is acting like a cruel and bigoted jerk towards an innocent girl the "exercise of religion"?

@Jazzhead
Again, following Gods law is not bigoted or cruel.

The 'girls' were not innocent, they were living in sin.   While we are all sinners Jesus urged us to turn away from sin and not to revel in it.

That's what marriage is, its a public profession of the bonding of two people.  Before God and the community. 
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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #556 on: January 04, 2018, 04:34:43 pm »
Actually @Jazzhead you aren't the arbiter of "real" Christianity.

Thanks, HS.  The act of being the arbiter of what constitutes Christianity in particular, and conservatism in general, has been wearing really thin on me lately.  I'm a little tired of being lectured on what conservatives think by one who isn't remotely conservative, and on what Christianity is by someone who's beliefs can be charitably described as a definition of "Christian" that I was previously unfamiliar with.

You said what I've been thinking, but in a much more eloquent way than I could.
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Offline thackney

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #557 on: January 04, 2018, 04:38:01 pm »
Actually @Jazzhead you aren't the arbiter of "real" Christianity.  You are of course free to advocate and practice your own interpretation of it, but some of us strive to accept what we understand to be the revealed Word of God in its entirety, including the first chapter of Romans.  Love for others is not the same thing as niceness to others, particularly if that niceness avoids hard truths.  There are hard truths in The Word that I don't like either, but "real" Christianity actually means accepting that God is sovereign, not me, so whether or not those hard truths hurt my feelings is simply not relevant to faith.

Nor are hurt feelings relevant to policy.  I'll agree that the baker's comment to the woman was unnecessarily provocative, but he didn't call her an abomination and he is not accountable for her belief that his faith is somehow about making her feel bad.  In fact his faith is not about her at all.  You've argued, persuasively and effectively, that identity politics are harmful, and I join you in that conclusion.  Perhaps the first step in repealing identity politics is not hoping for a clear decision from the Supreme Court, but instead recognizing that identity politics are to a large extent merely solipsism writ large, the self-absorbed insistence that everyone else's beliefs and values are somehow about me.  Soothing the corresponding hurt feelings is not an effective basis for establishing policy, and certainly not an effective basis for preserving ordered liberty.  We seem to be trying to build the edifice of law upon a foundation of emotion.  It is simply not going to work.

"Real" Christianity is actually about humbling one's self to remain within God's will, as Christ did, and the real test is when His will includes some things we don't like; perhaps the baker failed at this in his remarks.  Using the instruments of law to compel others to demonstrate respect for us fails as well, and I would argue even worse so.

Very well said.  Thanks for sharing with us.
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Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #558 on: January 04, 2018, 05:04:35 pm »
@Right_in_Virginia

Then you didn't find the case concerning the Oregon bakers.

Here is the statement of facts in that case:

Where is the reference to the birthday cake you mentioned?

I  knew you'd ask ... let me try and find it.  When I do, I'll post the link.

Thanks.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #559 on: January 04, 2018, 05:06:50 pm »
Actually @Jazzhead you aren't the arbiter of "real" Christianity.  .

I would never claim to be.  My opinions and observations are my own, to be accepted or rejected (or ignored) as you see fit. 

 But the Christians I know would not have responded with the cruelty exhibited by this baker.   The Christians I know would have served this woman like any other.   Why?  Because that is what they promised they would do.   

The quality of one's faith resides in the heart, IMO.

But thanks for your explanation of what being a Christian means to you.   May we both get to the golden shore one fine day.     
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 05:08:18 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline edpc

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #560 on: January 04, 2018, 05:11:43 pm »
May we both get to the golden shore one fine day.

There will be a Fusion GOD dossier on you.
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #561 on: January 04, 2018, 05:13:30 pm »
A real Christian, obedient to God's message, would serve this customer like he would any other.   

Sayeth the Devil and his pawn engaged in perverting the Word of God to call evil and abomination a good, and the good, an evil.

He does so eagerly because he follows a Christ of his own imagination, and not the One revealed in scripture.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #562 on: January 04, 2018, 05:17:49 pm »
Sayeth the Devil and his pawn engaged in perverting the Word of God to call evil and abomination a good, and the good, an evil.

He does so eagerly because he follows a Christ of his own imagination, and not the One revealed in scripture.

The Christ of your imagination I want nothing to do with.   Don't think you know it all.   Hubris is one of the deadly sins.   
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Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #563 on: January 04, 2018, 05:25:47 pm »
I would never claim to be.  My opinions and observations are my own, to be accepted or rejected (or ignored) as you see fit. 

 But the Christians I know would not have responded with the cruelty exhibited by this baker.   The Christians I know would have served this woman like any other.   Why?  Because that is what they promised they would do.   

The quality of one's faith resides in the heart, IMO.

But thanks for your explanation of what being a Christian means to you.   May we both get to the golden shore one fine day.   

Thank you @Jazzhead for a gracious response.
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #564 on: January 04, 2018, 05:31:26 pm »
The Christ of your imagination I want nothing to do with.   

You have made your abject rejection of scripture and disregard of millennia of Christian doctrine abundantly clear.

You speak with no authority other than the devil and his doctrines that you use to pervert truth so as to beguile as many as possible to the wide gate of destruction.

I tremble for you in that Day of judgment to come.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #565 on: January 04, 2018, 05:39:32 pm »
I tremble for you in that Day of judgment to come.

Bullshit.  You've threatened me with violence for my supposedly apostasy.   Look out for yourself on that Day of judgment.  Neither one of us has the ability to fool God.   
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #566 on: January 04, 2018, 05:50:26 pm »
You've threatened me with violence for my supposedly apostasy. 

Provide the link with my exact quote where I had 'threatened you with violence' for your religious views.

Or prove yourself an unmitigated LIAR yet again.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #567 on: January 04, 2018, 05:52:16 pm »
Well this thread is pretty much beat to death.

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #568 on: January 04, 2018, 06:20:15 pm »
Well this thread is pretty much beat to death.

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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #569 on: January 04, 2018, 06:21:58 pm »
Bullshit.  You've threatened me with violence for my supposedly apostasy.   Look out for yourself on that Day of judgment.  Neither one of us has the ability to fool God.   

No he hasn't.  That's a lie.  And it's your go to histrionics when he gets the best of you on a thread like this.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #570 on: January 04, 2018, 06:24:48 pm »
Well this thread is pretty much beat to death.

Yup.  Having contributed my share towards its demise,  I will bow out.   
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Offline edpc

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #571 on: January 04, 2018, 06:34:21 pm »
Well this thread is pretty much beat to death.

Not until recipes start showing up.....
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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #572 on: January 04, 2018, 07:02:29 pm »
This has nothing to do with cakes. It has to do with merchants and vendors refusing to provide goods and services, on religious grounds. (Our nation's history included refusal of services on racial bases.) 

More broadly it has to do with religious laws versus civil laws.

In the United States of America, civil laws take precedence over religious laws.
Southern Baptists used biblical scripture, to justify slavery (and later race based discrimination).

In 1967 in Loving v. Virginia a mixed race couple were sentenced to one year in jail, for marriage. Our civil law prevailed over religious law (the outdated basis for viirginia's law of the time).

Warren Jeffs claimed his religion allowed him multiple young brides. Jeff's is in prison.

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Offline goatprairie

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #573 on: January 04, 2018, 07:20:39 pm »
This has nothing to do with cakes. It has to do with merchants and vendors refusing to provide goods and services, on religious grounds. (Our nation's history included refusal of services on racial bases.) 

More broadly it has to do with religious laws versus civil laws.

In the United States of America, civil laws take precedence over religious laws.
Southern Baptists used biblical scripture, to justify slavery (and later race based discrimination).

In 1967 in Loving v. Virginia a mixed race couple were sentenced to one year in jail, for marriage. Our civil law prevailed over religious law (the outdated basis for viirginia's law of the time).

Warren Jeffs claimed his religion allowed him multiple young brides. Jeff's is in prison.
It is the difference between selling something and making something...pure and simple. If I open a shop anything on the shelves or displayed can be purchased by anybody who comes in, I don't care who they are.
But if some person requests me to make them something special i.e. the homosexual couple, I am free to decline. Even if I make the same things for other people. I cannot be forced to make something for persons or groups I don't want to make them for.
Contrary to what either Oceander or Jazz claimed an article I read yesterday stated that  the homosexual couple were demanding a customized cake. Sorry, I don't do that.
If a business/bakery/manufacturer can be forced to make/create something for a certain customer, no customer's demands can be declined.
I must bake the homosexual custom cake. I must paint the Satanic painting. I must photograph the nudist wedding.  I  must make the Nazi regalia.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 07:21:24 pm by goatprairie »

Offline INVAR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #574 on: January 04, 2018, 07:21:25 pm »

More broadly it has to do with religious laws versus civil laws.

In the United States of America, civil laws take precedence over religious laws.
Southern Baptists used biblical scripture, to justify slavery (and later race based discrimination).


Society can decide on it's own that pedophelia is perfectly good, moral and legal, or the murder of girls up until the age of 5 years old is permissible, or that white males may not own property or that people can marry their pets.  We are already on the path to total moral and social anarchy.

Does not make it right, or moral or good.  It only legalizes evil by the hand of the state.

When 'civil laws' force individuals to violate God's laws - then civil law no longer has any moral authority a Christian is obligated to follow.  All such a society has at that point is guns their agents will use to put to the heads of those they intend to force into compliance.

Which is tyranny, plain and simple.

Some of us will refuse to comply - and then it will become a question of whom is willing to suffer and die for their faith - and whom is willing to die to impose tyranny.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775