Author Topic: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case  (Read 44839 times)

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #525 on: January 04, 2018, 01:07:58 pm »
Eggsactly!   There are 'extremes' practiced in every ideology.

We have members here that never hesitate to rub our faces in their biblical 'goodness'

Say a rosary. 

Then bake the damned cake.

Then make it the last cake you ever bake for anybody.  With any luck at all, wedding cakes will be a thing of the past.
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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #526 on: January 04, 2018, 01:48:39 pm »
Then make it the last cake you ever bake for anybody.  With any luck at all, wedding cakes will be a thing of the past.

The answer is to compile a beautiful catalogue of your work (cakes).

And then, don't wander too far off your creative reservation.    ^-^

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #527 on: January 04, 2018, 02:05:45 pm »
The answer is to compile a beautiful catalogue of your work (cakes).

And then, don't wander too far off your creative reservation.    ^-^

Create a catalog for posterity, to show what used to be, then never make a cake again, for anybody.  Break the molds.  Then nobody you don't want to bake a cake for can make you do it.  Eventually the notion of "wedding cakes" will be nothing more than a quaint memory.  Society is already doing that with the concept of "marriage" anyway.  Look at the divorce rate.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 02:06:18 pm by Cyber Liberty »
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #528 on: January 04, 2018, 02:15:12 pm »
Create a catalog for posterity, to show what used to be, then never make a cake again, for anybody.  Break the molds.  Then nobody you don't want to bake a cake for can make you do it.  Eventually the notion of "wedding cakes" will be nothing more than a quaint memory.  Society is already doing that with the concept of "marriage" anyway.  Look at the divorce rate.

@Cyber Liberty

It's not just the divorce rate it's the whole notion of gay "marriage" in general.  If the left and the gay "mafia" were truly interested in allowing gay couples to share property...pass on things in their will and have visitation in the hospital...all things the left has said they want out of their version of marriage...then civil unions would be fine.

If they were truly about tolerance and inclusion in this issue they wouldn't sue the lone backer in a city that refuses to bake them a cake when there are several others that will.

What this is really about is tyranny disguised as tolerance and acceptance.  Through coercion, indoctrination or at the point of a gun...literal or otherwise force people to bend to your will even when they know what you're forcing them to do isn't right constitutional or ethical.

Those morals and ethics are an anathema to the left.


Their goal is to break down the civil society we've known since this country was founded and rebuild it into the Marxist/Leninist idea of utopia.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 02:16:12 pm by txradioguy »
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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #529 on: January 04, 2018, 02:26:35 pm »
@Cyber Liberty

It's not just the divorce rate it's the whole notion of gay "marriage" in general.  If the left and the gay "mafia" were truly interested in allowing gay couples to share property...pass on things in their will and have visitation in the hospital...all things the left has said they want out of their version of marriage...then civil unions would be fine.

If they were truly about tolerance and inclusion in this issue they wouldn't sue the lone backer in a city that refuses to bake them a cake when there are several others that will.

What this is really about is tyranny disguised as tolerance and acceptance.  Through coercion, indoctrination or at the point of a gun...literal or otherwise force people to bend to your will even when they know what you're forcing them to do isn't right constitutional or ethical.

Those morals and ethics are an anathema to the left.


Their goal is to break down the civil society we've known since this country was founded and rebuild it into the Marxist/Leninist idea of utopia.

With courts now being the final arbiter of all things social (to the applause of the usual suspects), that train already left the station.  People will form their own Marriage compacts in the churches left behind that haven't knuckled under, and if cakes are to be baked, they'll be done by family members not subject to Commercial Enterprise restrictions.

A return to the way things should have been.

And for those who remain wistful, they will know who to blame.
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Online roamer_1

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #530 on: January 04, 2018, 02:50:16 pm »
Eggsactly!   There are 'extremes' practiced in every ideology.

We have members here that never hesitate to rub our faces in their biblical 'goodness'

Say a rosary. 

Then bake the damned cake.

How ironic, what with you all up on your high horse and all, telling folks what they have to do.

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #531 on: January 04, 2018, 02:50:49 pm »
With courts now being the final arbiter of all things social (to the applause of the usual suspects), that train already left the station.

Sooner or later that idiocy will end. One way or another.
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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #532 on: January 04, 2018, 02:54:38 pm »
LOL.  I did that ... and found the references to the birthday cake.

But thanks. 

@Right_in_Virginia

Then you didn't find the case concerning the Oregon bakers.

Here is the statement of facts in that case:

Quote
The complainants, Rachel Bowman-Cryer and Laurel Bowman-Cryer, met in 2004 and had long considered themselves a couple. In 2012, they decided to marry.

As part of the wedding planning, Rachel and her mother, Cheryl, attended a Portland bridal show.  Melissa Klein had a booth at that bridal show, and she advertised wedding cakes made by her bakery business, Sweetcakes.  Rachel and Cheryl visited the booth and told Melissa that they would like to order a cake from her.  Rachel and Cheryl were already familiar with Sweetcakes; two years earlier, Sweetcakes had designed, created, and decorated a wedding cake for Cheryl’s wedding, paid for by Rachel.

After the bridal show, on January 17, 2013, Rachel and Cheryl visited the Sweetcakes bakery shop in Gresham for a cake-tasting appointment, intending to order a wedding cake. At the time of the appointment, Melissa was at home providing childcare, so her husband, Aaron, conducted the tasting.

During that tasting, Aaron asked for the names of the bride and groom. Rachel told him that there were two brides and that their names were Rachel and Laurel. At that point, Aaron stated that he was sorry, but that Sweetcakes did not make wedding cakes for same-sex ceremonies because of his and Melissa’s religious convictions. Rachel began crying, and Cheryl took her by the arm and walked her out of the shop. On the way to their car, Rachel became “hysterical” and kept apologizing to her mother, feeling that she had humiliated her.

Cheryl consoled Rachel once they were in their car, and she assured her that they would find someone to make the wedding cake.  Cheryl drove a short distance away, but then turned around and returned to Sweetcakes. This time, Cheryl reentered the shop by herself to talk with Aaron.  During their conversation, Cheryl told Aaron that she had previously shared his thinking about homosexuality, but that her “truth had changed” as a result of having “two gay children.”  In response, Aaron quoted a Bible passage from the Book of Leviticus, stating, “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.”  Cheryl left and returned to the car, where Rachel had remained, “holding [her] head in her hands, just bawling.”

When Cheryl returned to the car, she told Rachel that Aaron had called her “an abomination,” which further upset Rachel. Rachel later said that “t made me feel like they were saying God made a mistake when he made me, that I wasn’t supposed to be, that I wasn’t supposed to love or be loved or have a family or live a good life and one day go to heaven.”

Where is the reference to the birthday cake you mentioned?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 02:55:12 pm by Oceander »

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #533 on: January 04, 2018, 02:59:26 pm »
How ironic, what with you all up on your high horse and all, telling folks what they have to do.

I'm not doing that at all.

Simply speaking as somebody that ran/owned business all my life....that in order to stay out of legal trouble,...in this cake advertising special order wedding cakes...that you may have to check your personal set of morals/beliefs at the door.

It's a simple concept.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #534 on: January 04, 2018, 03:05:05 pm »
Again, the big “L” libertarian in me says that the free market should rule and alone decide the winners and losers and that no one should be forced to engage in any business transaction or in employment, hiring decisions for that matter, with anyone they don’t want to engage with or object to and for whatever reason.  I would think that businesses who blatantly discriminates against enough groups will probably not be in business very long or will have only a limited clientele. But if that’s their choice then so be it.

But with that, understand that if Christians can decide who and who they will not do business with based on their religious beliefs and objecting to others who do not hold to their same beliefs, then others of other religions or those of no religion should also then be able to decide not to do business with Christians.

The small “l” libertarian in me says that’s not probably going to work.

For instance, today you can’t discriminate based solely on race nor IMO should you.  I certainly wouldn’t patronize a business like a restaurant that hung a “Whites Only” sign on their door. And to be honest, I’m not so sure I’d patronize a bakery that chooses to only serve Christians, not to mention only “certain types” of Christians. Should a bakery run by evangelicals be allowed to refuse to bake a wedding cake for a Mormon or Catholic wedding?  Well perhaps they should, in a Libertarian fairyland.

And what if one of the Christian bakers who doesn’t bake cakes for gay couples, has a supplier of cake decorating supplies who says “based on your policies with which I disagree, I no longer want to sell supplies to you anymore”? Is that OK? Or is that persecution?

Perhaps we can institute some sort of signage to be displayed in front of every business and in their advertising sort of like we do with signage on trucks that indicate what sort of hazardous materials they are hauling to indicate who they will or will not do business with.

An anti-gay business might display a rainbow flag with an X through it and a pro-gay, a rainbow flag without the X. And a business that doesn’t want to serve Blacks or Jews, they could have their sign too (no wait, I think we had those before).

A business that doesn’t want to serve evangelical Christians would display a different sign, like an image of Jesus with an X through it, a Catholic business could display a crucifix indicating they only want to do business with other Catholics and a Muslim owned business could display a sign with a woman wearing a burka to indicate they don’t serve unmarried women unaccompanied by a male relative while another could display a sign with a burka with an X through it, an Atheist business a Darwin Fish to indicate they don’t want creationists as customers, an Elephant to indicate we only serve Republicans, a Donkey to indicate we only serve Democrats, a Pepe the Frog to indicate we hate pretty much everyone, and so on and so on, but that signage could end up getting quite large.

But that surely won’t work when protestant Christians who are still the vast majority in the US, object to being discriminated against.

Understand that if one business is allowed to discriminate against someone you don’t like and you are fine with that, understand that you may be one day on the receiving end of similar discrimination from someone who doesn’t like you. If you are OK with that, fine and perhaps we all should be fine with that if we really believe in freedom of religion and of free association, but I doubt many are when they end up on the receiving end.

In other words, “sometimes you’re the windshield, sometimes you’re the bug”.

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Let's try this again.

If I owned a custom T-shirt shop, and made T-shirts, would I then have the option to not make T-shirts with the word F**K on them? (spelled out?) or would I be imposing on someone's (someone else's) First Amendment Right to Freedom of Expression by refusing?

If I refuse to put your design on the shirt, but will sell you a shirt on which you can put your own design, is that okay? Or will I be sued for not putting what you want on the shirt, emotional distress (really???) etc.?

Because that's what is happening here. These Bakers would sell them a cake, they just wouldn't custom decorate it with the message they wanted (the message which makes it a wedding cake).

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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #535 on: January 04, 2018, 03:07:49 pm »
If they refused to make a cake for a straight couples wedding, you could sue because they would have violated the statute the same way that these bakers violated it.

@Oceander
Which sounds like tyranny to me.  Forcing someone to do something regardless.
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #536 on: January 04, 2018, 03:10:23 pm »
I'm not doing that at all.

Simply speaking as somebody that ran/owned business all my life....that in order to stay out of legal trouble,...in this cake advertising special order wedding cakes...that you may have to check your personal set of morals/beliefs at the door.

It's a simple concept.

@DCPatriot
Setting aside your personal freedoms in order to exist in the public square is not a simple concept.
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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #537 on: January 04, 2018, 03:19:51 pm »
I'm not doing that at all.
Sure you are.

Quote
Simply speaking as somebody that ran/owned business all my life....that in order to stay out of legal trouble,...in this cake advertising special order wedding cakes...that you may have to check your personal set of morals/beliefs at the door.

It's a simple concept.

Funny, as I have owned my own (several, often multiple) successfully since high school. Never have set my morals aside, and don't do much business with those who do. Principle things and all that.

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #538 on: January 04, 2018, 03:21:07 pm »

Let's try this again.

Because that's what is happening here. These Bakers would sell them a cake, they just wouldn't custom decorate it with the message they wanted (the message which makes it a wedding cake).



LOL!  You're absolutely right.

IMO, this was nothing but an episode of Reality TV, played to the highest court.

Build up the aggrieved, at the hands AND expense of a devout Christian.
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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #539 on: January 04, 2018, 03:23:50 pm »
Sure you are.

Funny, as I have owned my own (several, often multiple) successfully since high school. Never have set my morals aside, and don't do much business with those who do. Principle things and all that.

We'll just agree to disagree here, if that okay with you.   :patriot:
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #540 on: January 04, 2018, 03:26:33 pm »
Quote
When Cheryl returned to the car, she told Rachel that Aaron had called her “an abomination,” which further upset Rachel. Rachel later said that “t made me feel like they were saying God made a mistake when he made me, that I wasn’t supposed to be, that I wasn’t supposed to love or be loved or have a family or live a good life and one day go to heaven.”

And such are the wages of religious bigotry.   

A real Christian would have helped this woman celebrate the start of her new family.   A real Christian would have created the most beautiful cake in the world for this woman. 

Was the court's upholding of the monetary penalty justice?   I remain uncomfortable with it, but I will decry until I am silenced the wicked use of God's glorious message to justify intolerance.       
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 03:31:00 pm by Jazzhead »
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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #541 on: January 04, 2018, 03:28:56 pm »
@DCPatriot
Setting aside your personal freedoms in order to exist in the public square is not a simple concept.

Your 'freedom' wasn't withheld. 

It was exercised when you refused to make the penis cake with the blond and brunette figures depicting Kama Sutra.

How much that conflicts with your publicly posted restrictive guidelines hanging near the cash register depends upon you.
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #542 on: January 04, 2018, 03:30:14 pm »
And such are the wages of religious bigotry.   

A real Christians would have helped this woman celebrate the start of her new family.   A real Christian would have created the most beautiful cake in the world for this woman.   

@Jazzhead
Such are the foibles of those who seek to avoid the costs of sin.    Your bigotry against Christians blinds you.
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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #543 on: January 04, 2018, 03:31:31 pm »
Your 'freedom' wasn't withheld. 

It was exercised when you refused to make the penis cake with the blond and brunette figures depicting Kama Sutra.

How much that conflicts with your publicly posted restrictive guidelines hanging near the cash register depends upon you.

If you cannot exercise your religion in public then your freedom is indeed withheld.    if you're willing to sell your "sincerely" held religious beliefs for a few bucks then they must not be very sincere.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #544 on: January 04, 2018, 03:35:33 pm »
@Jazzhead
Such are the foibles of those who seek to avoid the costs of sin.    Your bigotry against Christians blinds you.

So it's bigotry, then, to fight against bigotry?  Then I'll wear your ridiculous label proudly.   What possibly gave this shit-for-brains baker the moral authority to call this poor woman an abomination?   

No one on this board is more blind than you.   God cannot possibly be pleased at those defending REAL and CRUEL bigotry by invoking His name.   
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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #545 on: January 04, 2018, 03:37:22 pm »
If you cannot exercise your religion in public then your freedom is indeed withheld.    if you're willing to sell your "sincerely" held religious beliefs for a few bucks then they must not be very sincere.

How is acting like a cruel and bigoted jerk towards an innocent girl the "exercise of religion"?   
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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #546 on: January 04, 2018, 03:37:54 pm »
If you cannot exercise your religion in public then your freedom is indeed withheld.    if you're willing to sell your "sincerely" held religious beliefs for a few bucks then they must not be very sincere.

I agree with you, buddy.

But to protect oneself from the fringe kook-social justice warriors backed by BIG $$$, a public notice spelling out the limits is a good idea.

....even though @Oceander suggested it wouldn't offer protection.

And IMO, if the order was simply a wedding tiered cake with same sex figures holding hands or smooching, the Christian baker should leave the figures off the cake and let the party place them.

We don't know the details here.   Supposedly, the very thought of homosexuality freaked her out....a perfect target for the Gay Crowd.

It's why I came to the thread....wondering what the heck actually transpired to make the SUPREME COURT rule against the shop owner.
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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #547 on: January 04, 2018, 03:38:16 pm »
So it's bigotry, then, to fight against bigotry?  Then I'll wear your ridiculous label proudly.   What possibly gave this shit-for-brains baker the moral authority to call this poor woman an abomination?   

No one on this board is more blind than you.   God cannot possibly be pleased at those defending REAL and CRUEL bigotry by invoking His name.   

@Jazzhead
Following Gods law is not bigotry.   Or are you calling God a bigot?   After all his word does use the word abomination when referring to homosexual behavior.   God is please by people following his law.
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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #548 on: January 04, 2018, 03:42:29 pm »
How is acting like a cruel and bigoted jerk towards an innocent girl the "exercise of religion"?

She sued him, not the other way around. She was being a bigoted jerk because she was intolerant of his beliefs.
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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #549 on: January 04, 2018, 03:52:14 pm »
Let's try this again.

If I owned a custom T-shirt shop, and made T-shirts, would I then have the option to not make T-shirts with the word F**K on them? (spelled out?) or would I be imposing on someone's (someone else's) First Amendment Right to Freedom of Expression by refusing?

If I refuse to put your design on the shirt, but will sell you a shirt on which you can put your own design, is that okay? Or will I be sued for not putting what you want on the shirt, emotional distress (really???) etc.?

Because that's what is happening here. These Bakers would sell them a cake, they just wouldn't custom decorate it with the message they wanted (the message which makes it a wedding cake).



Not true.  As per the court’s opinion, all of the cakes they sell are customized, so they generally don’t just slap some layers together with icing and call it a day. 

They refused to provide the same full services and goods to a lesbian couple that they provide to everyone else.  That is discrimination and, under Oregon state law, is illegal. 

If the bakers can’t deal with that, and cannot stand the idea that something they baked might show up at a lesbian or gay wedding, then they need to stop selling wedding cakes completely.  Tough.