Author Topic: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case  (Read 44256 times)

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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #475 on: January 04, 2018, 01:10:05 am »
I wouldn't rent or sell anything  for Nazi Party purposes. They can sue me.
I'm  not refusing to rent/sell just because the people are Nazis....I'm refusing to rent my space for Nazi Party purposes. Party rallies etc.

@goatprairie

A prime example of a fine distinction.

Not that you should have to defend your decision on who to rent YOUR property to in a FREE country. You SHOULD be able to stand up on your hind feet and just flat-out tell them,"I'm not renting to to any freaking Nazi's! Take your retarded ass down the road and find somebody that does if you want a room,but you are not getting one here!"
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #476 on: January 04, 2018, 01:14:37 am »
Same reason I did.  You got sucked in.

@Cyber Liberty

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Sometimes it's not strickly about winning as much as it is sticking up for what is right against what is wrong.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline edpc

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #477 on: January 04, 2018, 01:15:44 am »

Take your retarded ass down the road and find somebody that does if you want a room, but you are not getting one here!


Sorry - that’s a clear violation of the Americans With Disabilities Act Of 1990.

I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #478 on: January 04, 2018, 01:19:01 am »
The law is grounded on very ancient aspects of the sovereigns police power: the right of the sovereign to condition the right to conduct business, for example.  It is presumptively ok unless there is something that says it is unconstitutional, and the Oregon Supreme Court is probably correct  in holding that there is not.


@Oceander

So what? There were also laws that allowed Priests to boil people to death in pots of boiling oil for questioning the Pope. Maybe you want to bring them back,too?
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #479 on: January 04, 2018, 01:20:55 am »

Sorry - that’s a clear violation of the Americans With Disabilities Act Of 1990.

@edoc

BLEEP the BLEEPING Americans with Disabilities Act,and the freaking lawyers that rode in on it.
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #480 on: January 04, 2018, 01:22:35 am »
If they refused to make a cake for a straight couples wedding, you could sue because they would have violated the statute the same way that these bakers violated it.

Pretty sure a court will not permit a straight couple standing if the many counter-activist efforts to get homo bakeries to make cakes they disagree with are evident.

If a homo bakery denied making me a cake for a normal wedding, unlike those thugs who live to punish those who do not think and act as they do - I respect private property and liberty enough for them to tell me to get the f*ck out of their store and go somewhere else to spend my money.  I have the liberty to go elsewhere and get a cake I want made.  Pansies and thugs that use the courts and government to extort a business to provide services for celebrations of sexual behavior are the most reprehensible of tyrants.

Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #481 on: January 04, 2018, 01:22:41 am »

@Oceander

So what? There were also laws that allowed Priests to boil people to death in pots of boiling oil for questioning the Pope. Maybe you want to bring them back,too?

Even if I wanted to that is clearly unconstitutional. 

Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #482 on: January 04, 2018, 01:24:07 am »
Pretty sure a court will not permit a straight couple standing if the many counter-activist efforts to get homo bakeries to make cakes they disagree with are evident.

If a homo bakery denied making me a cake for a normal wedding, unlike those thugs who live to punish those who do not think and act as they do - I respect private property and liberty enough for them to tell me to get the f*ck out of their store and go somewhere else to spend my money.  I have the liberty to go elsewhere and get a cake I want made.  Pansies and thugs that use the courts and government to extort a business to provide services for celebrations of sexual behavior are the most reprehensible of tyrants.



What many counter efforts are these?  Post links. 

Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #483 on: January 04, 2018, 01:24:50 am »
Even if I wanted to that is clearly unconstitutional.

Of course it is. Oil is bad for the environment.

Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #484 on: January 04, 2018, 01:26:39 am »
Of course it is. Oil is bad for the environment.

Depends on the type and quantity of oil.

Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #485 on: January 04, 2018, 01:30:11 am »
Read the opinion.  The court accepted for the sake of argument that it was a mixed expression case - that is, that it involved some degree of expression by the baker - and then applied intermediate scrutiny to the matter, under which an infringement on a constitutional right by a facially neutral statute will be upheld if the statute directly advances a substantial interest of the state.

And yes, whether other people would recognize something as an expression of a particular person or not is a factor that is taken into account.  Read the opinion.

This is not a defense.  The question is not whether the opinion says this, the question is whether the opinion is reasonable, that is, internally consistent and consistent with principles of social and legal interaction on which consensus is clear; one cannot demonstrate that it's reasonable merely by citing or summarizing it any more than one can logically defend The Bible by citing The Bible.  Also you have still not described your own objections to the law which you have described as "stupid", nor have you defended the idea that those who are paid to create expressions can be compelled to do so.

Merely stating that it's the law confuses indicative with subjunctive and is not a valid logical defense, else Dred Scott and Plessy v Ferguson, not to mention the Spanish Inquisition, the Divine Right of Kings, and the Levitical Code, would still be in effect.

Readers will reach their own conclusions.
James 1:20

Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #486 on: January 04, 2018, 01:32:17 am »
This is not a defense.  The question is not whether the opinion says this, the question is whether the opinion is reasonable, that is, internally consistent and consistent with principles of social and legal interaction on which consensus is clear; one cannot demonstrate that it's reasonable merely by citing or summarizing it any more than one can logically defend The Bible by citing The Bible.  Also you have still not described your own objections to the law which you have described as "stupid", nor have you defended the idea that those who are paid to create expressions can be compelled to do so.

Merely stating that it's the law confuses indicative with subjunctive and is not a valid logical defense, else Dred Scott and Plessy v Ferguson, not to mention the Spanish Inquisition, the Divine Right of Kings, and the Levitical Code, would still be in effect.

Readers will reach their own conclusions.

Whatever.  You clearly do not want to accept the result and no amount of argument will change your mind.  Too bad. 

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #487 on: January 04, 2018, 01:34:34 am »
The bakers didn't impose their religious beliefs on anyone.  They never compelled the homosexual couples to participate in any belief, ceremony, or ritual, nor did they they inhibit the homosexual couples from participating in their own relationships, or from holding a wedding ceremony, or from procuring a wedding cake elsewhere.

The bakers did not impose, but they were imposed upon.

The secured a business license in a State where applicable laws outlaws denying people goods or services as a result of their sexual orientation.

They broke the law and they will pay fines etc. as a result of their actions.

It's really crystal clear.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline edpc

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #488 on: January 04, 2018, 01:35:03 am »
Depends on the type and quantity of oil.

Plus, it cannot contain transfats, but transsexuals are OK.
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #489 on: January 04, 2018, 01:43:12 am »
Using your example, I agree there would be no discrimination against atheists because this baker would create a cake for an atheist ... celebrating the birthday.  He would not create a cake for the atheist celebrating atheism. 

Just as this baker would create a cake celebrating the birthdays of homosexuals, and did not create a cake celebrating the marriage of homosexuals.

It's not a denial based on who is doing the cake ordering, but on the purpose for which the baker's talent and creativity would be used.

Denying goods or services to anyone based on their sexual orientation is illegal in Oregon, irrespective of whether or not you feel justified in doing so.

You are free to refuse to obey the law, but you're not free from the consequences of your decision to do so.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #490 on: January 04, 2018, 01:43:50 am »
Whatever.  You clearly do not want to accept the result and no amount of argument will change your mind.  Too bad.

Impossible to say until you present some actual argument, some basis other than Appeal to Authority for accepting the proposition that expressions can be compelled.

I'm OK with simply agreeing to disagree; you've identified a position which is fundamentally reasonable to me - the Oregon law is stupid but Constitutional -  although I'm disappointed that you haven't developed the "stupid" part of your position.  Our shared participation in this board suggests we probably agree on a number of other subjects, and I have no ill will toward you.  Perhaps we'll collaborate on the next topic.........

.........kiddo.
James 1:20

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #491 on: January 04, 2018, 01:44:58 am »
They cannot have their cake, and eat it, too.

 000hehehehe
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #492 on: January 04, 2018, 01:50:06 am »
Impossible to say until you present some actual argument, some basis other than Appeal to Authority for accepting the proposition that expressions can be compelled.

I'm OK with simply agreeing to disagree; you've identified a position which is fundamentally reasonable to me - the Oregon law is stupid but Constitutional -  although I'm disappointed that you haven't developed the "stupid" part of your position.  Our shared participation in this board suggests we probably agree on a number of other subjects, and I have no ill will toward you.  Perhaps we'll collaborate on the next topic.........

.........kiddo.

I am citing to the court’s opinion for the argument contained therein.  That is not mere appeal to authority.

The people of Oregon, through their duly elected representatives, decided that retail businesses in their state should not be permitted to refuse service to people on the basis of their sexual orientation.  That is a reasonable goal for a community to pursue.  The statute in question simply implements that democratic determination by penalizing such discrimination.  That’s a reasonable way to accomplish a reasonable goal. 

Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #493 on: January 04, 2018, 01:51:48 am »
The secured a business license in a State where applicable laws outlaws denying people goods or services as a result of their sexual orientation.

They broke the law and they will pay fines etc. as a result of their actions.  It's really crystal clear.

It really isn't crystal clear @Luis Gonzalez --- hence the "debate".

The baker did not deny a service he provides because the couple was gay.  Had this same couple ordered a cake to celebrate a birthday, the cake would have been provided.  What the baker did was decline to use his talent to create a cake to celebrate an occasion he cannot celebrate based on his religious beliefs.

Again .... the creation of that one cake, for that one occasion was denied --- any other cake for the same gay couple would have been provided.

Finding actual discrimination without trampling on the first amendment is the challenge before the Supreme Court.



« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 01:53:23 am by Right_in_Virginia »

Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #494 on: January 04, 2018, 01:56:38 am »
The secured a business license in a State where applicable laws outlaws denying people goods or services as a result of their sexual orientation.

They broke the law and they will pay fines etc. as a result of their actions.

It's really crystal clear.

Perhaps it is.  My statement that you cite was in response to the assertion that the bakers should not impose their religious beliefs on others - they didn't - not in response to a statement about the content of the Oregon law.  And as I have argued beyond most people's patience with Oceander, what the law in fact says has no bearing on what it should say.
James 1:20

Offline Sighlass

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #495 on: January 04, 2018, 02:00:49 am »
And Elijah came near to all the people and said, “How long will you hesitate between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him.”

The government has made it's choice. Now time to force that choice on Christians.
Exodus 18:21 Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders over ....

Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #496 on: January 04, 2018, 02:10:24 am »
It really isn't crystal clear @Luis Gonzalez --- hence the "debate".

The baker did not deny a service he provides because the couple was gay.  Had this same couple ordered a cake to celebrate a birthday, the cake would have been provided.  What the baker did was decline to use his talent to create a cake to celebrate an occasion he cannot celebrate based on his religious beliefs.

Again .... the creation of that one cake, for that one occasion was denied --- any other cake for the same gay couple would have been provided.

Finding actual discrimination without trampling on the first amendment is the challenge before the Supreme Court.





No, it’s pretty clear.  Once the bakers found out the couple was lesbian they refused to make a cake.  It never even got to the point of discussing what sort of cake.  Once one reads the facts it becomes pretty clear that it was outright discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #497 on: January 04, 2018, 02:26:08 am »
No, it’s pretty clear.  Once the bakers found out the couple was lesbian they refused to make a cake.  It never even got to the point of discussing what sort of cake.  Once one reads the facts it becomes pretty clear that it was outright discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

I'm going to need a link to this @Oceander   Because my understanding of the case file is the (still gay) couple had originally talked about a birthday cake.  It's only when they wanted to talk about wedding cake designs that the baker stopped them.

So it is not clear the baker's actions were motivated by a discrimination against gays and a refusal to serve them, period --- or a decision not to use his talent to create a cake for a celebration he cannot support based on his religious beliefs, solely.

It's not simple and clear cut.

Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #498 on: January 04, 2018, 02:28:34 am »
I'm going to need a link to this @Oceander   Because my understanding of the case file is the (still gay) couple had originally talked about a birthday cake.  It's only when they wanted to talk about wedding cake designs that the baker stopped them.

So it is not clear the baker's actions were motivated by a discrimination against gays and a refusal to serve them, period --- or a decision not to use his talent to create a cake for a celebration he cannot support based on his religious beliefs, solely.

It's not simple and clear cut.

Google Oregon baker court opinion
And you should get it. 

Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #499 on: January 04, 2018, 02:36:38 am »
Google Oregon baker court opinion
And you should get it.

LOL.  I did that ... and found the references to the birthday cake.

But thanks.