Author Topic: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case  (Read 44278 times)

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #400 on: January 03, 2018, 09:10:25 pm »
Rand Paul said it best in regards to Obama care. This is nothing more than slavery, you are requiring a person to perform work agaisnt their will.

That's a bit over the top.

They chose to enter into the bakery business on their own, in one of (if not the most) liberal State in the Union and accepted a business license based on agreeing to adhere to all pertaining laws, statutes and codes as a requirement of conducting business in that State, then decided (again on their own volition) to demand that their business be allowed to violate the State's Constitution other applicable laws.

How does reaching decisions freely time and time again translate into slavery? 

If you decide to die on the Cross for your beliefs, you should stop complaining about the nails being too big.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 09:11:58 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #401 on: January 03, 2018, 09:28:03 pm »
That's a bit over the top.

They chose to enter into the bakery business on their own, in one of (if not the most) liberal State in the Union and accepted a business license based on agreeing to adhere to all pertaining laws, statutes and codes as a requirement of conducting business in that State, then decided (again on their own volition) to demand that their business be allowed to violate the State's Constitution other applicable laws.

How does reaching decisions freely time and time again translate into slavery? 

If you decide to die on the Cross for your beliefs, you should stop complaining about the nails being too big.

Just because a state passes a law doesn't make it right.

in this case they didn't even pass a law.

but I guess we know how sincerely you hold your freedoms
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #402 on: January 03, 2018, 09:28:09 pm »
@Luis Gonzalez

Pretty much their only solution.  In fact, I expect to see a lot of bakeries do this preemptively all around the country. 

That's what Masterpiece Cakeshop did - they say on their website that they do not take orders for custom wedding cakes.

There may be a more palatable solution, depending on how extreme your beliefs are in relation to your desire to transact profitable business.     Make wedding cakes for all couples,  but reserve the right to decline to render specific messages on the cake deemed offensive.  No same sex wedding toppers, no pro-gay messages or messages that suggest religious sanction.   Correct me if I'm wrong, but the typical fancy wedding cake doesn't contain words like a birthday cake but rather is merely an elaborate, artistic construction.   I'd guess the vast majority of same-sex wedding cakes would be visually indistinguishable from their opposite-sex counterparts.   
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #403 on: January 03, 2018, 09:29:41 pm »
That's what Masterpiece Cakeshop did - they say on their website that they do not take orders for custom wedding cakes.

There may be a more palatable solution, depending on how extreme your beliefs are in relation to your desire to transact profitable business.     Make wedding cakes for all couples,  but reserve the right to decline to render specific messages on the cake deemed offensive.  No same sex wedding toppers, no pro-gay messages or messages that suggest religious sanction.   Correct me if I'm wrong, but the typical fancy wedding cake doesn't contain words like a birthday cake but rather is merely an elaborate, artistic construction.   I'd guess the vast majority of same-sex wedding cakes would be visually indistinguishable from their opposite-sex counterparts.

@Jazzhead
Holding true to beliefs that have been around for 2000 years and were the law of the land here until a very short time ago is not extreme

Your bigotry is so tiresome
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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #404 on: January 03, 2018, 09:34:48 pm »
Just because a state passes a law doesn't make it right.

in this case they didn't even pass a law.

but I guess we know how sincerely you hold your freedoms

Didn’t pass a law?  What are you smoking?  The bakers violated ORS 659A.403, which prohibits places like retail bakeries from denying full and equal service to people on account of sexual orientation, amongst other grounds.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #405 on: January 03, 2018, 09:36:34 pm »
@Jazzhead
Holding true to beliefs that have been around for 2000 years and were the law of the land here until a very short time ago is not extreme

Your bigotry is so tiresome

"Holding true to beliefs" means not engaging in homosexual acts.  Not imposing your religious beliefs on others.   You say you make wedding cakes, then make wedding cakes.   You're not saving your customers from the devil, just engaging in self-indulgent egotism.

As for tiresome, you've called me a bigot at least five times on this thread just for voicing my very mainstream opinion.   I get your point - I'm a bigot.   Now give it, and your obsession with identity politics, a rest.     
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 09:39:09 pm by Jazzhead »
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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #406 on: January 03, 2018, 09:39:44 pm »
Good points.  I'm tired of the thread because I'm tired of the claims "bigot" and "hatred" being bandied about by people who confess they don't want to wipe out the businesses of those they accuse of the bigotry and hatred.  If it's no big deal to them, then it's of no concern to me either.   :shrug:

The courts are going to do what they are going to do.  I can only hope somebody can stop the runaway bureaucracies that are wreaking havoc on what's left of our society.  That reminds me of what I am most tired of about this:  Too many people think what the bureaucracies are doing is just grand.

WHAT IF.....

...at that booth at the fair, where she advertised custom cakes, there included an asterisk(*) we see in every auto lease or cruise ticket spot.

"Restrictions apply"  Tastycakes reserves the right to decline any order deemed inappropriate. 
Tastycakes, and/or their agents shall have sole discretion as to what is deemed, "inappropriate". 
Purchaser(s) sole remedy shall be a total refund of any monies previously tendered as good faith deposit(s).
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Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #407 on: January 03, 2018, 09:42:46 pm »
"Holding true to beliefs" means not engaging in homosexual acts.  Not imposing your religious beliefs on others.   You say you make wedding cakes, then make wedding cakes.   You're not saving your customers from the devil, just engaging in self-indulgent egotism.

The bakers didn't impose their religious beliefs on anyone.  They never compelled the homosexual couples to participate in any belief, ceremony, or ritual, nor did they they inhibit the homosexual couples from participating in their own relationships, or from holding a wedding ceremony, or from procuring a wedding cake elsewhere.

The bakers did not impose, but they were imposed upon.
James 1:20

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #408 on: January 03, 2018, 09:44:17 pm »
The bakers didn't impose their religious beliefs on anyone.  They never compelled the homosexual couples to participate in any belief, ceremony, or ritual, nor did they they inhibit the homosexual couples from participating in their own relationships, or from holding a wedding ceremony, or from procuring a wedding cake elsewhere.

The bakers did not impose, but they were imposed upon.

An imposition they voluntarily accepted when they voluntarily continued to bake cakes for profit in Oregon and to hold themselves out to the public as engaged in that business. 

They cannot have their cake, and eat it, too. 

Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #409 on: January 03, 2018, 09:45:27 pm »
WHAT IF.....

...at that booth at the fair, where she advertised custom cakes, there included an asterisk(*) we see in every auto lease or cruise ticket spot.

"Restrictions apply"  Tastycakes reserves the right to decline any order deemed inappropriate. 
Tastycakes, and/or their agents shall have sole discretion as to what is deemed, "inappropriate". 
Purchaser(s) sole remedy shall be a total refund of any monies previously tendered as good faith deposit(s).


If the refusal was based on a protected category, like sexual orientation, then it would be ineffective. 

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #410 on: January 03, 2018, 09:49:23 pm »
If the refusal was based on a protected category, like sexual orientation, then it would be ineffective.

Got it.   
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Offline Suppressed

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #411 on: January 03, 2018, 09:50:17 pm »
An imposition they voluntarily accepted when they voluntarily continued to bake cakes for profit in Oregon and to hold themselves out to the public as engaged in that business. 

They cannot have their cake, and eat it, too.

But they didn't discriminate. They'd have denied that cake even if the people wanting it were straight.
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Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #412 on: January 03, 2018, 09:56:04 pm »
An imposition they voluntarily accepted when they voluntarily continued to bake cakes for profit in Oregon and to hold themselves out to the public as engaged in that business. 

They cannot have their cake, and eat it, too.

Just like every artist in Oregon voluntarily accepts when offering to paint portraits for pay, and every musician in Oregon voluntarily accepts when they get paid to write and perform songs, and every newspaper editor in Oregon voluntarily accepts when they get paid to write editorials.  All can be compelled by the state of Oregon to paint specific portraits, and to write specific songs, and to pen specific editorials, because they voluntarily went into those businesses for pay in Oregon.

Right, kiddo?

Oh but what am I thinking, you never responded to the question.  So why exactly do you think this law is stupid?
James 1:20

Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #413 on: January 03, 2018, 09:58:03 pm »
But they didn't discriminate. They'd have denied that cake even if the people wanting it were straight.

No, they discriminated. They sat down with one of the women and her mother to discuss a cake.  One of the first questions was who the bride and groom were.  When told that there was no groom, only two brides, the baker point blank refused to make a cake for such a wedding.  The mother and daughter returned to their car, and when the mother then went back to the store to try and reason with them, was told that it was an abomination.  In other words, they were already to make a cake until they learned the sexual orientation of the two women, at which point they refused to provide the service they were only too happy to provide when they thought there was a groom as well as a bride. 

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #414 on: January 03, 2018, 09:58:05 pm »
There was no discrimination.  This guy won't make cakes for a Pagan Solstice celebration or a birthday cake for an Atheist. ....

Using your example, I agree there would be no discrimination against atheists because this baker would create a cake for an atheist ... celebrating the birthday.  He would not create a cake for the atheist celebrating atheism. 

Just as this baker would create a cake celebrating the birthdays of homosexuals, and did not create a cake celebrating the marriage of homosexuals.

It's not a denial based on who is doing the cake ordering, but on the purpose for which the baker's talent and creativity would be used.


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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #415 on: January 03, 2018, 10:00:01 pm »
Just like every artist in Oregon voluntarily accepts when offering to paint portraits for pay, and every musician in Oregon voluntarily accepts when they get paid to write and perform songs, and every newspaper editor in Oregon voluntarily accepts when they get paid to write editorials.  All can be compelled by the state of Oregon to paint specific portraits, and to write specific songs, and to pen specific editorials, because they voluntarily went into those businesses for pay in Oregon.

Right, kiddo?

Oh but what am I thinking, you never responded to the question.  So why exactly do you think this law is stupid?

You can deny reality all you like, but that doesn’t change the fact that Oregon state law very clearly makes it illegal for a business that offers its goods and services to the public to refuse those goods or services to someone because of that person’s sexual orientation. 

Got it, kiddo?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 10:00:40 pm by Oceander »

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #416 on: January 03, 2018, 10:02:07 pm »
"Holding true to beliefs" means not engaging in homosexual acts.  Not imposing your religious beliefs on others.   

No on both counts.

In the first, Any true Christian will be able to tell you that we are not to associate ourselves with sin. We are not to incline toward it, nor abide it in any fashion. Acceptance is apostasy, by definition, and one becomes complicit in the sin. If you had ever really read a Bible, you would know that.

Acceptance and mercy come with repentance - not in coddling sinful acts.

And in the second, it is the homos that are imposing, not the Christian.

Offline INVAR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #417 on: January 03, 2018, 10:02:50 pm »
The bakers didn't impose their religious beliefs on anyone.  They never compelled the homosexual couples to participate in any belief, ceremony, or ritual, nor did they they inhibit the homosexual couples from participating in their own relationships, or from holding a wedding ceremony, or from procuring a wedding cake elsewhere.

The bakers did not impose, but they were imposed upon.

In the twisted mindset of today's tyranny advocates, the refusal to accommodate, serve, celebrate, participate and acknowledge deviant behaviors is in itself an imposition of intolerable and illegal Christian religious beliefs.

We are not permitted to hold beliefs or exercise our rights that others find offensive and intolerant.  Just ask any Christian Conservative on a university campus.

We must be forced by the end of a gun to participate in acknowledging and serving protected deviancies and perverted behaviors the State and their courts have now made of superior status.

Refusal to serve state-protected, sanctioned and encouraged deviant behaviors is actionable, with the loss of livelihoods, wealth and property to be confiscated with the full assistance and weight of the state and their courts.

Once "laws" are decreed that demand churches must 'marry' same sex people, children, pets and household items - that too will enjoin the same justifications we read regarding the legal imposition of this meddlesome tyranny.
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Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #418 on: January 03, 2018, 10:07:19 pm »
You can deny reality all you like, but that doesn’t change the fact that Oregon state law very clearly makes it illegal for a business that offers its goods and services to the public to refuse those goods or services to someone because of that person’s sexual orientation. 

Got it, kiddo?

I don't deny that the law actually says that, I maintain that it leads to the conclusions I've identified and that those conclusions are indefensible, which you have not denied.  In fairness to you perhaps I've not been adequately clear on my position.

You have stated that you find the law stupid.  Why do you find it so?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 10:09:38 pm by HoustonSam »
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Offline goatprairie

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #419 on: January 03, 2018, 10:22:45 pm »
That's a bit over the top.

They chose to enter into the bakery business on their own, in one of (if not the most) liberal State in the Union and accepted a business license based on agreeing to adhere to all pertaining laws, statutes and codes as a requirement of conducting business in that State, then decided (again on their own volition) to demand that their business be allowed to violate the State's Constitution other applicable laws.

How does reaching decisions freely time and time again translate into slavery? 

If you decide to die on the Cross for your beliefs, you should stop complaining about the nails being too big.
really? If you owned a business renting rooms for parties/business/etc. and some Nazis wanted to use/rent your rooms for a rally, would you turn them down?

Offline goatprairie

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #420 on: January 03, 2018, 10:24:38 pm »
The bakers didn't impose their religious beliefs on anyone.  They never compelled the homosexual couples to participate in any belief, ceremony, or ritual, nor did they they inhibit the homosexual couples from participating in their own relationships, or from holding a wedding ceremony, or from procuring a wedding cake elsewhere.

The bakers did not impose, but they were imposed upon.
"The bakers did not impose, but they were imposed upon."
Exactly.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #421 on: January 03, 2018, 10:27:53 pm »
Just because a state passes a law doesn't make it right.

in this case they didn't even pass a law.

but I guess we know how sincerely you hold your freedoms

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Equality_Act

State Law since 2007.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

We are free to disobey those laws that we consider unjust, we are not however, free from the consequences of doing so.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #422 on: January 03, 2018, 10:28:25 pm »
"Holding true to beliefs" means not engaging in homosexual acts.  Not imposing your religious beliefs on others.   You say you make wedding cakes, then make wedding cakes.

They didn't impose their beliefs on anyone else.  They didn't tell the couple they'd back the cake if they gave up the gay lifestyle and became devout Christians.

THAT would be imposing ones beliefs. 

You're not saving your customers from the devil, just engaging in self-indulgent egotism.

Your lack of knowledge of biblical teachings once again proves stunning.

That and you don't seem to grasp the ideal of principals and personal responsibility...or morals.

Quote
As for tiresome, you've called me a bigot at least five times on this thread just for voicing my very mainstream opinion.   I get your point - I'm a bigot.   Now give it, and your obsession with identity politics, a rest.     

That's rich coming from you.
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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #423 on: January 03, 2018, 10:28:48 pm »
I don't deny that the law actually says that, I maintain that it leads to the conclusions I've identified and that those conclusions are indefensible, which you have not denied.  In fairness to you perhaps I've not been adequately clear on my position.

You have stated that you find the law stupid.  Why do you find it so?

The conclusions are not indefensible.  You may not like them, the bakers may not like them, but the only options are lobbying for an exception, to permit religious-based discrimination, or else cease selling custom wedding cakes in Oregon.  It’s exactly the same as a real estate agent who is prohibited from red-lining blacks, or a construction company that doesn’t want to follow the building code. 

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #424 on: January 03, 2018, 10:31:13 pm »
really? If you owned a business renting rooms for parties/business/etc. and some Nazis wanted to use/rent your rooms for a rally, would you turn them down?

If they have the money, and adequate reliable insurance that would cover all damage, sure.