Author Topic: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case  (Read 44286 times)

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Offline goatprairie

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #375 on: January 03, 2018, 07:33:52 pm »
And a business has no right refusing service to someone because of their race or religion.
What race or religion is being refused service? If the baker refused to sell an item already baked and for sale in the store, then the complainants would have a point.
But when you request that a business make you something special for them, they have the right to refuse to do so.
If a business cannot turn down a customer for any reason, then many businesses would be forced to accommodate people/groups they despise.
If you owned a business that rented out buildings/rooms for parties and the Nazi Party called and said it wanted to rent out one of your rooms, would you accommodate them? I wouldn't.
Because something is legal and many people  approve of a certain behavior, it doesn't mean everybody has to agree and go along.  I believe homosexuality is a mental disorder, and I'm certainly not going to do something to promote or encourage it.
Baking a cake for a homosexual wedding would be encouraging it.
It would have to be a business that provided basics for survival. Therefore, if I owned a grocery store, I'm not going to deny food to anybody even if they're people I despise. (BTW I don't hate homosexuals or liberals. I do know more than a few of both.)  Hospitals should not turn down anybody even nasty people for treatment. They do have the right to exist.
But weddings, parties, gatherings and other non-essential for survival events are different. Despite what you feel, people and businesses do have the right to discriminate in certain matters.

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #376 on: January 03, 2018, 07:33:52 pm »
Being gay isn't a race...and it certainly flies in the face of religion and religious teachings.

Yes, but Oregon law forbids discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.  That makes it illegal. 

Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #377 on: January 03, 2018, 07:34:43 pm »
What race or religion is being refused service? If the baker refused to sell an item already baked and for sale in the store, then the complainants would have a point.
But when you request that a business make you something special for them, they have the right to refuse to do so.
If a business cannot turn down a customer for any reason, then many businesses would be forced to accommodate people/groups they despise.
If you owned a business that rented out buildings/rooms for parties and the Nazi Party called and said it wanted to rent out one of your rooms, would you accommodate them? I wouldn't.
Because something is legal and many people  approve of a certain behavior, it doesn't mean everybody has to agree and go along.  I believe homosexuality is a mental disorder, and I'm certainly not going to do something to promote or encourage it.
Baking a cake for a homosexual wedding would be encouraging it.
It would have to be a business that provided basics for survival. Therefore, if I owned a grocery store, I'm not going to deny food to anybody even if they're people I despise. (BTW I don't hate homosexuals or liberals. I do know more than a few of both.)  Hospitals should not turn down anybody even nasty people for treatment. They do have the right to exist.
But weddings, parties, gatherings and other non-essential for survival events are different. Despite what you feel, people and businesses do have the right to discriminate in certain matters.

No, the business does not.  Not in this case under Oregon state law. 

Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #378 on: January 03, 2018, 07:35:55 pm »
What race or religion is being refused service? If the baker refused to sell an item already baked and for sale in the store, then the complainants would have a point.
But when you request that a business make you something special for them, they have the right to refuse to do so.
If a business cannot turn down a customer for any reason, then many businesses would be forced to accommodate people/groups they despise.
If you owned a business that rented out buildings/rooms for parties and the Nazi Party called and said it wanted to rent out one of your rooms, would you accommodate them? I wouldn't.
Because something is legal and many people  approve of a certain behavior, it doesn't mean everybody has to agree and go along.  I believe homosexuality is a mental disorder, and I'm certainly not going to do something to promote or encourage it.
Baking a cake for a homosexual wedding would be encouraging it.
It would have to be a business that provided basics for survival. Therefore, if I owned a grocery store, I'm not going to deny food to anybody even if they're people I despise. (BTW I don't hate homosexuals or liberals. I do know more than a few of both.)  Hospitals should not turn down anybody even nasty people for treatment. They do have the right to exist.
But weddings, parties, gatherings and other non-essential for survival events are different. Despite what you feel, people and businesses do have the right to discriminate in certain matters.

You really should read the Oregon law first, then decide what it is that a business that is subject to Oregon law can and cannot do.

Offline goatprairie

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #379 on: January 03, 2018, 07:36:20 pm »
Yes, but Oregon law forbids discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.  That makes it illegal.
Maybe the Oregon law was made by fascists.  It certainly looks to be that way considering the cake business they destroyed with deliberate malice.  Not all laws are moral or constitutional. 

Offline INVAR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #380 on: January 03, 2018, 07:36:28 pm »

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Homosexuals have the SAME EXACT RIGHTS AS THE REST OF US.

No.  They have 'special' rights afforded them based on their choice of behavior that is not afforded to others.  If I walk into a gay-owned 'special order custom cake bakery' that caters to homos and demand they make a wedding cake for a normal couple, or a baptism cake with scriptures that condemn homosexuality, I don't get to sue for discrimination because they refused to make the kind of cake I want.

The of course will have government and the courts assisting them with annihilating any business they target for destruction by claiming 'discrimination'.



any homosexual bakery that tries to run off Christians should be sued by those Christians.

Turn about is fair play,as well as a warning to be careful what you ask for.

You and I both know that is not how extortion from the Grievance Industry works. 
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Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #381 on: January 03, 2018, 07:39:09 pm »
But there are likely fewer Muslims in this country than homosexuals,  so I have less immediate concern over their religious extremism in the conduct of commerce.   

But surely Constitutional issues are not merely numeric.  If only one person's rights are violated, and that violation occurs at the hands of a small minority, are you unconcerned about that one person's right to legal recourse?

My sense is that complete acceptance of homosexuality is very rapidly becoming the norm in the United States.  At some point there might be only a very small number of Christian businesses who would refuse custom service to homosexuals on First Amendment grounds.  What number of such Christian businesses is small enough that you would no longer be concerned about their discrimination against homosexuals?
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #382 on: January 03, 2018, 07:43:06 pm »
The customer asked for exactly what the baker advertised to provide - a cake for a wedding.


Wedding cakes are for marriages, which according to civilization, tradition and scripture - is between a man and woman.  I don't give two shits some fruit in a black robe decides people can 'marry' the same sex, young children, their siblings, pets and parents.  It's NOT a 'wedding' I have to recognize just because perverts in society demand I do. 

King George the III never even came close to the imposition of barbarity upon conscience that you advocates of tyranny do.  Wars were begun over much, much less.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline thackney

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #383 on: January 03, 2018, 07:46:59 pm »
You and Jazz have both made the case that "The bakery has to provide services advertised," but nobody has produced any evidence of what was advertised.  According to the part of your post I underlined, the advertising here was word-of-mouth.  The baker was to be forced to bake the cake because he did so for the mother of one of them.

This is a silly claim.  Yes, they advertised for wedding cakes.  Yes, Waybackmachine.com has record of that.

Both for the Sweet Cakes by Melissa in Oregon and Masterpiece Cakeshop in Colorado.

https://web.archive.org/web/20120128121324/http://masterpiececakes.com/

https://web.archive.org/web/20130205182208/http://www.sweetcakesweb.com

There are real problems with the claim of bigotry and the rights to not be forced to make a product they don't produce.  We don't need to make up others.
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Online roamer_1

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #384 on: January 03, 2018, 07:47:01 pm »
The 1950's called ... they want their sign back.

As if the sophistry of this age is some sort of improvement?
That sign says it all.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #385 on: January 03, 2018, 07:48:54 pm »
But surely Constitutional issues are not merely numeric.  If only one person's rights are violated, and that violation occurs at the hands of a small minority, are you unconcerned about that one person's right to legal recourse?

My sense is that complete acceptance of homosexuality is very rapidly becoming the norm in the United States.  At some point there might be only a very small number of Christian businesses who would refuse custom service to homosexuals on First Amendment grounds.  What number of such Christian businesses is small enough that you would no longer be concerned about their discrimination against homosexuals?

My concern is that the law be applied fairly and without favoritism.   Discrimination with respect to the conduct of a public accommodation is against the law whether the bigot is Christian, or Muslim, or atheist, or homosexual.    My reply was in response to a comment that I don't appear to criticize the bigotry practiced by (some) Muslims in the same way that I criticize bigotry as practiced by (some) Christians.   Well,  that's only because I have yet to come across a thread on this board where the majority defended Muslim religious bigotry.   
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 07:51:49 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #386 on: January 03, 2018, 07:49:41 pm »
I tend to sympathize with those who object to folks running off to court to challenge the myriad affronts of everyday life.   For most,  the answer is to patronize another business, or perhaps post bad reviews for places run by bigots.
Combine a lawsuit-happy culture and the embrace of identity politics by both left and right,  and you don't have a very harmonious situation.   Still,  I am pleased that Masterpiece Cakeshop made it to the Supreme Court, so we can learn once and for all what the rules are respecting religious prejudice in the conduct of everyday commerce.   Can knowledge of the rules be the first step toward reconciliation?   Likely not - identity politics are just too intoxicating for that.  But I can always hope.   

I commend you for these sentiments @Jazzhead and I join you in them.  My pessimism is probably greater than yours however, in that I don't believe the Federal Judiciary is likely to reach conclusions which bear up to complete, intellectually honest scrutiny.

Like you, I believe identity politics are proving very harmful, but I believe citizens do have the right to maintain their identities as they choose, while having no right to force other citizens to respect those identities.  My sense is that equality requires government to treat all citizens equally, while liberty requires that private citizens have no such obligation.
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Offline thackney

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #387 on: January 03, 2018, 07:51:24 pm »
Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.   We'll never know, because service was denied before any discussion of customization or artistry could take place.   

I keep coming back to this because I think it's crucial to resolution of the case. If the customer had asked for an offensive message to be placed on the cake,  I'm sure all would agree that it was within the baker's right to refuse.   

There in lies the problem.  We don't agree on what is offensive.  It appears you agree with the concept, but not where to draw the line.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 07:51:52 pm by thackney »
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #388 on: January 03, 2018, 07:52:35 pm »
Yes, but Oregon law forbids discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.  That makes it illegal.

There was no discrimination.  This guy won't make cakes for a Pagan Solstice celebration or a birthday cake for an Atheist.

Discriminating would be if he made those cakes for the other two groups and didn't for the lesbian couple.

That is discriminating against one group over another.

The bakers religious beliefs dictate that he doesn't make a cake for any group or person that goes against his beliefs.

He's applying his business standards in an equal manner.

Only Liberals and RINO's believe he was discriminating or that there was discrimination going on here.
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Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #389 on: January 03, 2018, 08:05:19 pm »
My concern is that the law be applied fairly and without favoritism.   Discrimination with respect to the conduct of a public accommodation is against the law whether the bigot is Christian, or Muslim, or atheist, or homosexual.    My reply was in response to a comment that I don't appear to criticize the bigotry practiced by (some) Muslims in the same way that I criticize bigotry as practiced by (some) Christians.   Well,  that's only because I have yet to come across a thread on this board where the majority defended Muslim religious bigotry.

Yet you cited the relative number of Muslims and homosexuals in the United States.  Perhaps I am not understanding you here, if so I apologize. But here you seem to be saying that your position is based at least as much on the comments shared on this forum, as on the facts of the case, or maybe a more fair statement of your position is that it's based to some extent on the relative number of Christians, Muslims, and homosexuals in the United States.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth here, I'm actually trying to understand your position.  Do you believe that relative numbers of people in these categories are legitimately a part of the analysis?  Certainly the practical consequences of a given policy will be influenced by the number of people affected on either side, but it's hard for me to see how that should influence our vision of Constitutional government treating everyone fairly.

Again, I apologize if I'm misunderstanding you.
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Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #390 on: January 03, 2018, 08:11:27 pm »
There was no discrimination.  This guy won't make cakes for a Pagan Solstice celebration or a birthday cake for an Atheist.

Discriminating would be if he made those cakes for the other two groups and didn't for the lesbian couple.

That is discriminating against one group over another.

The bakers religious beliefs dictate that he doesn't make a cake for any group or person that goes against his beliefs.

He's applying his business standards in an equal manner.

Only Liberals and RINO's believe he was discriminating or that there was discrimination going on here.

Under Oregon state law there was discrimination:  they refused to make any sort of cake for a lesbians’ wedding.  If you’d read the opinion you would know that they decided not to make the cake even before any particular design or message was discussed.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #391 on: January 03, 2018, 08:14:02 pm »
This is a silly claim.  Yes, they advertised for wedding cakes.  Yes, Waybackmachine.com has record of that.

Both for the Sweet Cakes by Melissa in Oregon and Masterpiece Cakeshop in Colorado.

https://web.archive.org/web/20120128121324/http://masterpiececakes.com/

https://web.archive.org/web/20130205182208/http://www.sweetcakesweb.com

There are real problems with the claim of bigotry and the rights to not be forced to make a product they don't produce.  We don't need to make up others.

Good points.  I'm tired of the thread because I'm tired of the claims "bigot" and "hatred" being bandied about by people who confess they don't want to wipe out the businesses of those they accuse of the bigotry and hatred.  If it's no big deal to them, then it's of no concern to me either.   :shrug:

The courts are going to do what they are going to do.  I can only hope somebody can stop the runaway bureaucracies that are wreaking havoc on what's left of our society.  That reminds me of what I am most tired of about this:  Too many people think what the bureaucracies are doing is just grand.
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Online roamer_1

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #392 on: January 03, 2018, 08:29:49 pm »
Under Oregon state law there was discrimination:  they refused to make any sort of cake for a lesbians’ wedding.  If you’d read the opinion you would know that they decided not to make the cake even before any particular design or message was discussed.

No doubt they would have arbitrarily refused to make any sort of cake for a Wiccan wedding too. Or a Satanic wedding - Both of which invariably would be against Christian belief.

And rightfully so.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #393 on: January 03, 2018, 08:39:29 pm »

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth here, I'm actually trying to understand your position.  Do you believe that relative numbers of people in these categories are legitimately a part of the analysis? 

No,  HS,  unlawful discrimination is actionable regardless of the number of persons affected (or the number of persons in the identity group to which they belong).   Religion does not provide an excuse for unlawful discrimination with respect to a business that serves the general public (a public accommodation).     
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Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #394 on: January 03, 2018, 08:50:16 pm »
No,  HS,  unlawful discrimination is actionable regardless of the number of persons affected (or the number of persons in the identity group to which they belong).   Religion does not provide an excuse for unlawful discrimination with respect to a business that serves the general public (a public accommodation).   

Then what did you mean when you said in 332 : "But there are likely fewer Muslims in this country than homosexuals,  so I have less immediate concern over their religious extremism in the conduct of commerce. "

If it's not a question of numbers, why does religious extremism in commerce by one group, whom you believe to be outnumbered by homosexuals, concern you less than religious extremism in commerce by another group?
James 1:20

Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #395 on: January 03, 2018, 08:54:22 pm »
No doubt they would have arbitrarily refused to make any sort of cake for a Wiccan wedding too. Or a Satanic wedding - Both of which invariably would be against Christian belief.

And rightfully so.

If such discrimination is actionable under Oregon law, then they’d be in violation for that as well. 

Offline INVAR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #396 on: January 03, 2018, 08:55:50 pm »
Religion does not provide an excuse for unlawful discrimination with respect to a business that serves the general public (a public accommodation).   

Oh yeah?  Just watch me.  I do it on a daily basis.

God does not provide an excuse for men to nullify His Laws to accommodate an evil and call it good.

Any "law" that contravenes God's Law governing my life is null and void and I will forever ignore it.

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #397 on: January 03, 2018, 08:56:36 pm »
Maybe the Oregon law was made by fascists.  It certainly looks to be that way considering the cake business they destroyed with deliberate malice.  Not all laws are moral or constitutional.

The baker's remedy was rather simple.

Stop making wedding cakes. That way, they wouldn't find themselves between the rock and the hard place created by their personal religious beliefs and the laws of the State where their licensed business operates in.
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Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #398 on: January 03, 2018, 08:58:04 pm »
The baker's remedy was rather simple.

Stop making wedding cakes. That way, they wouldn't find themselves between the rock and the hard place created by their personal religious beliefs and the laws of the State where their licensed business operates in.

Or move the business to a different state. 

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #399 on: January 03, 2018, 09:07:19 pm »
The baker's remedy was rather simple.

Stop making wedding cakes. That way, they wouldn't find themselves between the rock and the hard place created by their personal religious beliefs and the laws of the State where their licensed business operates in.

@Luis Gonzalez

Pretty much their only solution.  In fact, I expect to see a lot of bakeries do this preemptively all around the country.  All "wedding cakes" will be made by some protected group.  I disagree moving the business to another state would make them safe, I think all States have some law that can be bastardized enough to find a tort.  Lawyers can be pretty resourceful that way.

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« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 09:07:37 pm by Cyber Liberty »
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