Author Topic: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case  (Read 44221 times)

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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #325 on: January 03, 2018, 05:13:04 pm »
Here's the clearest explanation of the motive behind the baker's decision I could find.  It also explains why this is not a case of  "discrimination" but a challenge against both creative/artistic and religious freedoms.  It really shouldn't be a tough decision (5/4) for the Supremes to make.

Quote
On Monday, Phillips explained in a USA Today op-ed why he declined to create a cake that openly celebrated something against his beliefs:

Quote
I’m happy to sell a cake to anyone, whatever his or her sexual identity. People should be free to make their own moral choices. I don’t have to agree with them...

Designing a wedding cake is a very different thing from, say, baking a brownie. When people commission such a cake, they’re requesting something that’s designed to express something about the event and about the couple.

What I design is not just a tower of flour and sugar, but a message tailored to a specific couple and a specific event — a message telling all who see it that this event is a wedding and that it is an occasion for celebration.

In this case, I couldn’t. What a cake celebrating this event would communicate was a message that contradicts my deepest religious convictions, and as an artist, that’s just not something I’m able to do, so I politely declined.

But this wasn’t just a business decision. More than anything else, it was a reflection of my commitment to my faith. My religious convictions on this are grounded in the biblical teaching that God designed marriage as the union of one man and one woman.

***
More:
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/u.s.-supreme-court-hears-arguments-against-forcing-baker-to-make-gay-weddin

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #326 on: January 03, 2018, 05:16:40 pm »
The Oregon statutes.  ORS 659A.400 defines “place of public accommodation” broadly enough to include the bakery.  A point the bakery never disputed in court.
These statutes you reference are not 'rules of public accommodation'.  Instead they define what public accommodations are.  The 'rules' are not within your link.

What interestingly within your link is that there is not any difference from the perspective of a commercial vs non-commercial enterprise in the public arena, making your own point in this http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,296957.msg1560110.html#msg1560110
invalid.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #327 on: January 03, 2018, 05:21:10 pm »
Thanks for your opinion,  SP.   It bears, of course, absolutely no relationship with the law.

@Jazzhead

Then clearly the law is wrong,as it often is these days.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #328 on: January 03, 2018, 05:24:20 pm »
I'll have to go looking for it.  There was a VERY long TBR thread about the gay coffee shop owner who went on a pissy fit and kicked some horrible Christians out of his place of business.  The thread was long because Jazz was on his jazz throughout the thread after having redirected it onto the cake-baker story.  I'll post it up if I can find it.  I think there was a link to the video there.
I recall the story.  Those Christians went and found another establishment that served them rather than pressing a discrimination case against the coffee shop/

They were not agitators like the queers who wish to make the rest of us recognize the queer world by pursuing lawsuits.
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Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #329 on: January 03, 2018, 05:25:35 pm »
These statutes you reference are not 'rules of public accommodation'.  Instead they define what public accommodations are.  The 'rules' are not within your link.

What interestingly within your link is that there is not any difference from the perspective of a commercial vs non-commercial enterprise in the public arena, making your own point in this http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,296957.msg1560110.html#msg1560110
invalid.

Bull. 

You just don’t want to accept the reality that is there before your very nose. 

Oregon law defines a public accommodation in a way that includes this bakery.  It then forbids discrimination on the basis of, amongst other things, sexual orientation by the proprietor of a public accommodation.  Very simple. 

The bakery cannot under Oregon law discriminate against someone on the basis of sexual orientation, which is what they did when they refused to bake a cake, any cake at all, for a lesbian wedding. 

The question is whether the law amounts to an unconstitutional infringement of the bakers’ right to freedom of expression and freedom of religion, and under intermediate scrutiny, it does not, according to the Oregon court, in a well written opinion that does acknowledge the closeness of the issue. 

Issues of compelled speech in similar circumstances have been mitigated before, and have generally been upheld.  So the bakers face an uphill battle.


Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #330 on: January 03, 2018, 05:25:59 pm »
Hmmm...I've read where Trump voters wearing MAGA hats were thrown out.   Never, Christians...for their religion.

Please provide a link.


@DCPatriot

I eventually found the link to the TBR thread about the gay Seattle coffee shop owner who booted out some terrible Christians.  I had forgotten he kept saying he thought Jesus what "hot" and wanted to do things to his rear end, along with his boyfriend.

The original post on this thread was gacked by the database crash we had, so I also located an article that referenced the story (with a link to the video).

TBR Thread:
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,284739.0.html

HuffPost Article:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/seattle-coffee-shop-anti-choice-activists_us_59dbd39de4b0b34afa5b77d9
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #331 on: January 03, 2018, 05:30:27 pm »
And unless you do some serious digging...the bolded part will never be known to most people in any of the media reports.

Can't do anything to disrupt the narrative.

@txradioguy

I don't have a clue how anyone could go about proving that,but I also believe it to be the case that they specifically targeted a Christia-owned bakery in order to gain a little fame and a lot of money.  Otherwise if all they wanted was their homo-specific cake, they would have just gone to a bakery that didn't care to have their cake baked.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #332 on: January 03, 2018, 05:34:32 pm »
Or their Koran.

Yes, or their Koran.   But there are likely fewer Muslims in this country than homosexuals,  so I have less immediate concern over their religious extremism in the conduct of commerce. 

I tend to sympathize with those who object to folks running off to court to challenge the myriad affronts of everyday life.   For most,  the answer is to patronize another business, or perhaps post bad reviews for places run by bigots.
Combine a lawsuit-happy culture and the embrace of identity politics by both left and right,  and you don't have a very harmonious situation.   Still,  I am pleased that Masterpiece Cakeshop made it to the Supreme Court, so we can learn once and for all what the rules are respecting religious prejudice in the conduct of everyday commerce.   Can knowledge of the rules be the first step toward reconciliation?   Likely not - identity politics are just too intoxicating for that.  But I can always hope.   
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #333 on: January 03, 2018, 05:35:33 pm »
Quote
Bullshit.  Self-admitted bleep have exercised the right to publicly humiliate and kick people out of their coffee shops and refuse to serve them for being nothing more than Christians that they despise.  Homosexuals do not have the same rights the rest of us do. They have SPECIAL, ARBITRARY RIGHTS granted to flaunt their behavior and force acceptance of it by the courts.


@INVAR

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Homosexuals have the SAME EXACT RIGHTS AS THE REST OF US.

They also have the SAME OBLIGATIONS AND RESPONSIBILITIES.

IF the Christian baker can be sued to force him to bake a cake that personally offends him,which I don't believe is Constitutional,any homosexual bakery that tries to run off Christians should be sued by those Christians.

Turn about is fair play,as well as a warning to be careful what you ask for.
 
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Online DCPatriot

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #334 on: January 03, 2018, 05:36:01 pm »
@DCPatriot

I eventually found the link to the TBR thread about the gay Seattle coffee shop owner who booted out some terrible Christians.  I had forgotten he kept saying he thought Jesus what "hot" and wanted to do things to his rear end, along with his boyfriend.

The original post on this thread was gacked by the database crash we had, so I also located an article that referenced the story (with a link to the video).

TBR Thread:
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,284739.0.html

HuffPost Article:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/seattle-coffee-shop-anti-choice-activists_us_59dbd39de4b0b34afa5b77d9

He didn't throw them out of the shop because they were Christians.  They didn't have name and denomination tags on their chests.

What they DID have were pics of aborted fetuses on signs they held when marching.

"Tastelessness", in a 'privately' owned establishment is not covered under "Thou shall not discriminate...[race, religion, sexual ...preference]

This is FAKE NEWS as far their being tossed because they were Christians.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #335 on: January 03, 2018, 05:43:41 pm »
And unless you do some serious digging...the bolded part will never be known to most people in any of the media reports.

Can't do anything to disrupt the narrative.

@txradioguy

See, that's one of the things that really bugs me about this story:  The dearth of evidence.  I'm of the belief these fellows most certainly targeted the bakery (In this case and in Colorado).   Even that other poster does not dispute this.  What bothers me is the fact that none of these "customers" did the slightest evidence gathering to support their cases, that I know of.  Where are the pictures of the advertisements we keep hearing about?  Screen shots?  And why on Earth would these fellows go through all this trouble and not record their interactions with the bakery staff, either video or audio?

We'd be seeing the ads and video, if they were detrimental to the bakeries, as we have in the story I linked about the coffee shop.  But we're not.  Nothing.

The dog didn't bark.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #336 on: January 03, 2018, 05:45:55 pm »
He didn't throw them out of the shop because they were Christians.  They didn't have name and denomination tags on their chests.

What they DID have were pics of aborted fetuses on signs they held when marching.

"Tastelessness", in a 'privately' owned establishment is not covered under "Thou shall not discriminate...[race, religion, sexual ...preference]

This is FAKE NEWS as far their being tossed because they were Christians.

They were demonstrating in the street, not his shop.  I think they had the right to do that.  I am not going to relitigate the coffee shop incident.  I really don't understand why you are excusing the conduct of this guy.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #337 on: January 03, 2018, 05:46:16 pm »
@txradioguy

See, that's one of the things that really bugs me about this story:  The dearth of evidence.  I'm of the belief these fellows most certainly targeted the bakery (In this case and in Colorado).   Even that other poster does not dispute this.  What bothers me is the fact that none of these "customers" did the slightest evidence gathering to support their cases, that I know of.  Where are the pictures of the advertisements we keep hearing about?  Screen shots?  And why on Earth would these fellows go through all this trouble and not record their interactions with the bakery staff, either video or audio?

We'd be seeing the ads and video, if they were detrimental to the bakeries, as we have in the story I linked about the coffee shop.  But we're not.  Nothing.

The dog didn't bark.

You should read the Oregon court’s opinion, because it does describe the facts. Apparently, they went to this bakery because they had baked a cake for the wedding of the mother of one of the two people involved.  So they were not just targeting a Christian-run bakery. 

Online DCPatriot

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #338 on: January 03, 2018, 05:49:10 pm »
They were demonstrating in the street, not his shop.  I think they had the right to do that.  I am not going to relitigate the coffee shop incident.  I really don't understand why you are excusing the conduct of this guy.

IMO, it's no different than "No Shoes, No Shirt....No service!"

If I were the owner, seeing potential/regular customers avoid the demonstration, hurting my bottom line....and then having them come and park their asses inside??

Not on my shift, buddy.   
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #339 on: January 03, 2018, 05:51:42 pm »
You should read the Oregon court’s opinion, because it does describe the facts. Apparently, they went to this bakery because they had baked a cake for the wedding of the mother of one of the two people involved.  So they were not just targeting a Christian-run bakery.

You and Jazz have both made the case that "The bakery has to provide services advertised," but nobody has produced any evidence of what was advertised.  According to the part of your post I underlined, the advertising here was word-of-mouth.  The baker was to be forced to bake the cake because he did so for the mother of one of them.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #340 on: January 03, 2018, 05:55:28 pm »
You and Jazz have both made the case that "The bakery has to provide services advertised," but nobody has produced any evidence of what was advertised.  According to the part of your post I underlined, the advertising here was word-of-mouth.  The baker was to be forced to bake the cake because he did so for the mother of one of them.

Nope.  They held themselves out to the public as being willing to bake wedding cakes for pay. 

Read the opinion.  Stop being so afraid of the truth. 

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #341 on: January 03, 2018, 05:56:26 pm »
IMO, it's no different than "No Shoes, No Shirt....No service!"

If I were the owner, seeing potential/regular customers avoid the demonstration, hurting my bottom line....and then having them come and park their asses inside??

Not on my shift, buddy.

I happen to agree with you, it may surprise, but the entire point of the story was the hypocrisy of the situation.  What is being forced all the way to the Supreme Court in this case is not even being touched in the other case.

What is key to this is it's because the Christians in the coffee shop are not "jerks," as it was put upthread a long ways.  They just did what any normal person such as you or I would have done:  They took their business elsewhere.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #342 on: January 03, 2018, 05:57:43 pm »
Nope.  They held themselves out to the public as being willing to bake wedding cakes for pay. 

Read the opinion.  Stop being so afraid of the truth.

Sure.  And you can stop accusing me of being afraid of the truth.  Ad hominems don't become you.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #343 on: January 03, 2018, 05:58:05 pm »
Yes, or their Koran.   But there are likely fewer Muslims in this country than homosexuals,  so I have less immediate concern over their religious extremism in the conduct of commerce. 

 9999what

Quote
...  Can knowledge of the rules be the first step toward reconciliation?   Likely not - identity politics are just too intoxicating for that.  But I can always hope.   

You don't understand the fundamentals of the case.  You're giving me kneejerk liberal reflex here.   **nononono*


« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 06:01:51 pm by Right_in_Virginia »

Offline driftdiver

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #344 on: January 03, 2018, 06:00:31 pm »
You and Jazz have both made the case that "The bakery has to provide services advertised," but nobody has produced any evidence of what was advertised.  According to the part of your post I underlined, the advertising here was word-of-mouth.  The baker was to be forced to bake the cake because he did so for the mother of one of them.

Sell them muffins.   Wedding cakes are for marriages according to my definition of what a marriage is.   I use the bibles definition.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #345 on: January 03, 2018, 06:02:50 pm »
RIV,  I recognize the threat that Islamic extremism poses to the safety of us all.   But if there's a problem in this country with Muslim-owned businesses refusing commerce with non-Muslims, I'm not aware of it.   
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Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #346 on: January 03, 2018, 06:04:58 pm »
Sure.  And you can stop accusing me of being afraid of the truth.  Ad hominems don't become you.

Here is the statement of facts from the Oregon Supreme Court's opinion (I added the emphasis):

Quote
As part of the wedding planning, Rachel and her mother, Cheryl, attended a Portland bridal show.2  Melissa Klein had a booth at that bridal show, and she advertised wedding cakes made by her bakery business, Sweetcakes.  Rachel and Cheryl visited the booth and told Melissa that they would like to order a cake from her.  Rachel and Cheryl were already familiar with Sweetcakes; two years earlier, Sweetcakes had designed, created, and decorated a wedding cake for Cheryl’s wedding, paid for by Rachel.

Here's a link to the opinion itself:  http://www.publications.ojd.state.or.us/docs/A159899.pdf

So, in sum:

(i) the bakery advertised to the general public that it made wedding cakes, and

(ii) the complainants were already familiar with the bakery because they were familiar with the cakes that it baked, since the mother of one had purchased a cake from the bakery before for the mother's own wedding.

Them's the facts, jack.

Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #347 on: January 03, 2018, 06:05:33 pm »
9999what

You don't understand the fundamentals of the case.  You're giving me kneejerk liberal reflex here.   **nononono*




He understands them much better than just about anyone else here does.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #348 on: January 03, 2018, 06:08:30 pm »
RIV,  I recognize the threat that Islamic extremism poses to the safety of us all.   But if there's a problem in this country with Muslim-owned businesses refusing commerce with non-Muslims, I'm not aware of it.   

I usually support your opinions as clear, rational and well thought-out.  Can't do it here or on this topic in general @Jazzhead .

There's a motivator to these posts that I'd rather not dissect. Let's just say it's your right to have this apparent prejudice and my right to disagree with it.  And let's leave it there.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #349 on: January 03, 2018, 06:09:33 pm »
He understands them much better than just about anyone else here does.

Says his number one cheerleader.  Big whoop.  :shrug: