Author Topic: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case  (Read 44261 times)

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #175 on: January 02, 2018, 11:20:26 pm »
@Jazzhead
@Cyber Liberty

I've got to defend Jazzhead on this one.  I followed this discussion quite a bit.  I saw him state just the opposite.

With link back to the original post:

He calls all these people (except the coffee shop owner who threw some Christians out of his shop) "Bigots."  That's a very strong term to me, and it's morally inconsistent to say they are "bigots" but only deserve "minimal punishment."  That's like saying "Sure he tortures and shoots puppies, but he's not so bad we should lock him up."

I am not impressed to hear him say, "But we shouldn't put them out of business."  Hey, if they're bigots, why the Hell not?
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Offline goatprairie

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #176 on: January 02, 2018, 11:24:20 pm »
Oh, lighten up Francis.   The customer "demanded" no more and no less than what the baker advertised to provide.   

It's not tyranny to live up to one's word.
You appear to have a very thick cranium. The bakery made wedding cakes. It offered to bake one of their typical cakes for the homosexual couple. The homosexual couple wanted a special kind of cake.
It is not the right of the customer to have all their demands met. No customer can demand that a business make something exactly as they want it. If the business does not want to satisfy a special request, it does not have to do so.
That is until tyrants began dictating law in certain states. Welcome to the side of tyranny amigo.

Offline goatprairie

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #177 on: January 02, 2018, 11:25:36 pm »
I can provide custom services, and decline to provide them to anyone. If I advertise that I provide custom landscaping, but decline to produce what, in effect would be an outline of genitalia on the ground when viewed from the air, would the peckernazis come after me? Sue me? You don't even have a clue what a can of worms is getting served up with this crap.

IMHO, no one should be forced to provide a service they find offensive to anyone, regardless of whether they provide similar services which they do not find offensive to others.
Yes, thank you....maybe your explanation can get through to our tyranny-loving friends.

Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #178 on: January 02, 2018, 11:28:06 pm »
Live your own life as your conscience requires.   Just don't impose your moral edicts on others.

In fact this is exactly what you are advocating @Jazzhead, imposing your own moral edicts on others.

The bakers aren't trying to impose moral edicts, in that they make no attempt to prevent anyone from purchasing a wedding cake; they simply seek to operate their businesses as their conscience requires.
James 1:20

Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #179 on: January 02, 2018, 11:32:08 pm »
Commercial speech receives less protection than non-commercial speech, and no matter how “artistic” it may be, if it’s done for profit as part of a business, it’s commercial speech, at most.

@Oceander

So an artist who paints portraits for a living is legally not permitted to refuse to paint a particular portrait?
James 1:20

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #180 on: January 02, 2018, 11:34:48 pm »
Yes, thank you....maybe your explanation can get through to our tyranny-loving friends.

Not a chance in Hell.  You mentioned a "thick cranium" in the earlier post.  He's so proud of that cranium I call him "Richard Cranium."
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline Neverdul

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #181 on: January 02, 2018, 11:39:22 pm »
Again, the big “L” libertarian in me says that the free market should rule and alone decide the winners and losers and that no one should be forced to engage in any business transaction or in employment, hiring decisions for that matter, with anyone they don’t want to engage with or object to and for whatever reason.  I would think that businesses who blatantly discriminates against enough groups will probably not be in business very long or will have only a limited clientele. But if that’s their choice then so be it.

But with that, understand that if Christians can decide who and who they will not do business with based on their religious beliefs and objecting to others who do not hold to their same beliefs, then others of other religions or those of no religion should also then be able to decide not to do business with Christians.

The small “l” libertarian in me says that’s not probably going to work.

For instance, today you can’t discriminate based solely on race nor IMO should you.  I certainly wouldn’t patronize a business like a restaurant that hung a “Whites Only” sign on their door. And to be honest, I’m not so sure I’d patronize a bakery that chooses to only serve Christians, not to mention only “certain types” of Christians. Should a bakery run by evangelicals be allowed to refuse to bake a wedding cake for a Mormon or Catholic wedding?  Well perhaps they should, in a Libertarian fairyland.

And what if one of the Christian bakers who doesn’t bake cakes for gay couples, has a supplier of cake decorating supplies who says “based on your policies with which I disagree, I no longer want to sell supplies to you anymore”? Is that OK? Or is that persecution?

Perhaps we can institute some sort of signage to be displayed in front of every business and in their advertising sort of like we do with signage on trucks that indicate what sort of hazardous materials they are hauling to indicate who they will or will not do business with.

An anti-gay business might display a rainbow flag with an X through it and a pro-gay, a rainbow flag without the X. And a business that doesn’t want to serve Blacks or Jews, they could have their sign too (no wait, I think we had those before).

A business that doesn’t want to serve evangelical Christians would display a different sign, like an image of Jesus with an X through it, a Catholic business could display a crucifix indicating they only want to do business with other Catholics and a Muslim owned business could display a sign with a woman wearing a burka to indicate they don’t serve unmarried women unaccompanied by a male relative while another could display a sign with a burka with an X through it, an Atheist business a Darwin Fish to indicate they don’t want creationists as customers, an Elephant to indicate we only serve Republicans, a Donkey to indicate we only serve Democrats, a Pepe the Frog to indicate we hate pretty much everyone, and so on and so on, but that signage could end up getting quite large.

But that surely won’t work when protestant Christians who are still the vast majority in the US, object to being discriminated against.

Understand that if one business is allowed to discriminate against someone you don’t like and you are fine with that, understand that you may be one day on the receiving end of similar discrimination from someone who doesn’t like you. If you are OK with that, fine and perhaps we all should be fine with that if we really believe in freedom of religion and of free association, but I doubt many are when they end up on the receiving end.

In other words, “sometimes you’re the windshield, sometimes you’re the bug”.

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Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #182 on: January 02, 2018, 11:43:28 pm »
Wedding cakes made by a commercial baker are not the same as the Sistine Chapel and are not entitled to the same protections.  It’s just that simple, and if you can’t see it, that’s because you don’t want to see it.

@Oceander

Did you not argue in this thread, reply #49 : "...no matter how “artistic” it may be, if it’s done for profit as part of a business, it’s commercial speech, at most."

Is it your position that Michelangelo was not compensated for the Sistine Chapel, or that he was not routinely paid for commissioned work?
James 1:20

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #183 on: January 02, 2018, 11:46:35 pm »
@Oceander

So an artist who paints portraits for a living is legally not permitted to refuse to paint a particular portrait?

Is that what Oregon state law says?  Quote it chapter and verse, kiddo, or stop playing with straw men and grow up. 

Offline INVAR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #184 on: January 02, 2018, 11:52:28 pm »
Oh, lighten up Francis.   The customer "demanded" no more and no less than what the baker advertised to provide.   

It's not tyranny to live up to one's word.

It's tyranny to force someone to provide a product or service to celebrate an evil behavior.

I advertise graphic design work for marketing.  Everything from TV commercials to T-shirts.

When my business would be forced to design T-shirts for a Gay Pride parade, or make advertisements for such an event when I refuse to provide such services for those events and that behavior, is in fact - TYRANNY.





Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #185 on: January 03, 2018, 12:04:31 am »
Is that what Oregon state law says?  Quote it chapter and verse, kiddo, or stop playing with straw men and grow up.

I'll bet a dollar the word "baker" or "bakery" doesn't appear in the law either. Yet, here we are.
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Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #186 on: January 03, 2018, 12:06:57 am »
Is that what Oregon state law says?  Quote it chapter and verse, kiddo, or stop playing with straw men and grow up.

@Oceander

I didn't cite Oregon state law, I cited you, chapter and verse.  So unless you're willing to out *yourself* as a straw man, perhaps you should answer the question.

Can an artist legally refuse a specific commission?

Is that grown up enough for you?
James 1:20

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #187 on: January 03, 2018, 12:07:16 am »
It's tyranny to force someone to provide a product or service to celebrate an evil behavior.

I advertise graphic design work for marketing.  Everything from TV commercials to T-shirts.

When my business would be forced to design T-shirts for a Gay Pride parade, or make advertisements for such an event when I refuse to provide such services for those events and that behavior, is in fact - TYRANNY.

Better not tell him where your business is, because he'll have some Lavender Mafia types over to your place to scream "Bigot, but I don't want to put you out of business!" then sue you for $250K.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 12:08:57 am by Cyber Liberty »
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline goatprairie

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #188 on: January 03, 2018, 12:11:47 am »
@Oceander

So an artist who paints portraits for a living is legally not permitted to refuse to paint a particular portrait?
That is the crux of the matter.  The business is not refusing to sell an item to a customer...the business is refusing to make an item exactly to the specifications of the customer.
And that is the business's absolute right.
Our tyranny-loving friends here on TBR don't know what a can of worms they're opening.
If I had Bill Gates kind of money, I'd have lawsuits opened around the country against all the  liberal-owned businesses that refused to make something I demand they make. Some liberal artist only paints pro-liberal agenda items....he or she will now have to paint some pro conservative stuff.  A big picture of Trump clobbering Hillary over the head...yeah.. Just to see how they like being tyrannized.

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #189 on: January 03, 2018, 12:21:47 am »

It's tyranny to force someone to provide a product or service to celebrate an evil behavior.

I advertise graphic design work for marketing.  Everything from TV commercials to T-shirts.

When my business would be forced to design T-shirts for a Gay Pride parade, or make advertisements for such an event when I refuse to provide such services for those events and that behavior, is in fact - TYRANNY.


Each year now it seems, it's not "evil behavior" to more and more of the population.  (Or so, we're told).

Atheists claim to be the most intelligent/pragmatic.

And, it seems, proud, type-A devout Christians claim to be genetic experts/mavens.

Since homosexuality is not exclusive to humanity, but rather found in virtually every species on the planet...on what basis is it "evil behavior"?

Why should a human be forced to go against his/her nature for the religious beliefs of another?

Make the ***king cake.     

« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 12:22:34 am by DCPatriot »
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Offline goatprairie

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #190 on: January 03, 2018, 12:25:45 am »
Each year now it seems, it's not "evil behavior" to more and more of the population.  (Or so, we're told).

Atheists claim to be the most intelligent/pragmatic.

And, it seems, proud, type-A devout Christians claim to be genetic experts/mavens.

Since homosexuality is not exclusive to humanity, but rather found in virtually every species on the planet...on what basis is it "evil behavior"?

Why should a human be forced to go against his/her nature for the religious beliefs of another?

Make the ***king cake.   
"Make the ***king cake. "
The bakery would make them a cake. The homosexual couple didn't like it....they wanted something special. You appear to agree with them that the bakery must be forced to make the special cake. Welcome to tyranny.

Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #191 on: January 03, 2018, 12:30:45 am »

Why should a human be forced to go against his/her nature for the religious beliefs of another?


The bakers are not even asking, and certainly not forcing, anyone to go against their nature.  The question is whether the bakers can be forced to make statements which conflict with their own religious beliefs.
James 1:20

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #192 on: January 03, 2018, 12:36:45 am »
"Make the ***king cake. "
The bakery would make them a cake. The homosexual couple didn't like it....they wanted something special. You appear to agree with them that the bakery must be forced to make the special cake. Welcome to tyranny.

Don't get me wrong.  On this basis, "No-shirts, No shoes, No Service" is unconstitutional too!

If I advertised "custom orders" on cakes...., I'm obligated.

"Tyranny", used here, is a Strawman.   

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #193 on: January 03, 2018, 12:38:40 am »
The bakers are not even asking, and certainly not forcing, anyone to go against their nature. The question is whether the bakers can be forced to make statements which conflict with their own religious beliefs.

My post was referring to @INVAR 's personal POV on the matter, and not the case law.   ^-^
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"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #194 on: January 03, 2018, 12:44:22 am »
Don't get me wrong.  On this basis, "No-shirts, No shoes, No Service" is unconstitutional too!

If I advertised "custom orders" on cakes...., I'm obligated.

"Tyranny", used here, is a Strawman.   

Is that, indeed, what the baker advertised?

Another poster who agrees with you made that argument about the Colorado case, but was never able to produce the advertisement when asked.  I haven't seen one in this case, either.  Not saying it doesn't exist, but if one is going to make the "He advertised it so he should produce it" argument, one should be prepared to prove he, in fact, advertised it.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 12:44:46 am by Cyber Liberty »
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #195 on: January 03, 2018, 12:48:09 am »
My post was referring to @INVAR 's personal POV on the matter, and not the case law.   ^-^

The distinction between law and opinion is certainly real and significant.  However you seemed (to me) to advocate a specific action by the bakers, not by @INVAR; perhaps I was mistaken.  Apologies if I misunderstood you @DCPatriot.
James 1:20

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #196 on: January 03, 2018, 12:50:56 am »
Is that, indeed, what the baker advertised?

Another poster who agrees with you made that argument about the Colorado case, but was never able to produce the advertisement when asked.  I haven't seen one in this case, either.  Not saying it doesn't exist, but if one is going to make the "He advertised it so he should produce it" argument, one should be prepared to prove he, in fact, advertised it.

I've seen the argument several times here on the forum...and scanned the threads.

Nobody rebuts the charge that the bakers refused a request for a "special cake".   It was implied that a sign was on the premises that advertised they could accommodate special orders.

You're correct.   I haven't seen it, but the poster didn't have a motive to make it up.
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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #197 on: January 03, 2018, 12:54:34 am »
The distinction between law and opinion is certainly real and significant.  However you seemed (to me) to advocate a specific action by the bakers, not by @INVAR; perhaps I was mistaken.  Apologies if I misunderstood you @DCPatriot.


Nope, you're right.  My bad.   I'm conflicted as hell on this.   

It's why I dropped by, wondering what in the world the Supreme Court knew about the case for them to rule against the Christian bakers.

I figured if you advertise the service, you're obligated to the point you can't refuse on religious/sexual beliefs.  So bake the cake.
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"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #198 on: January 03, 2018, 01:03:26 am »

It's not tyranny to live up to one's word.

Again, no word was given.
If I advertise lawn maintenance services, that does not mean I must take every lawn job that comes along - for whatever reason at all. The word is given when terms are agreed to, and not before.

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #199 on: January 03, 2018, 01:04:02 am »
I've seen the argument several times here on the forum...and scanned the threads.

Nobody rebuts the charge that the bakers refused a request for a "special cake".   It was implied that a sign was on the premises that advertised they could accommodate special orders.

You're correct.   I haven't seen it, but the poster didn't have a motive to make it up.

To tell the truth, I'm conflicted too, if there was some sort of advertisement, but it's odd one has not been produced.  Of course, we're not privy to all the evidence, but it bothers me a little what's not available.  In both these cases, all sorts of claims have been made about what was advertised, and what was said to the complainants, yet there are no pictures of ads on the walls, and no videos (or audio) of these encounters. 

I find that a little difficult to believe when it's patently obvious the aggrieved parties sought out these businesses to entrap them.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed: