Author Topic: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case  (Read 24082 times)

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Offline INVAR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #825 on: January 07, 2018, 01:25:44 PM »
Oh come on, @INVAR, I don't really think @Jazzhead has argued (yet.....) that you and I can be marched off to labor camps.  This is what I mean by being reasonable. 

When they insist that your beliefs are no different than those of Jihadist Islam, and that your beliefs are a menace and danger to society - why is the probability of such people arguing in favor of forced labor camps out of the realm of possibility?  We shipped Jihadists to Guantanamo did we not?

I know where this zeitgeist leads if not arrested. And it will not end with government and courts being used to forced private businesses to serve deviant behaviors.

Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline INVAR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #826 on: January 07, 2018, 01:31:51 PM »
I don't know that @INVAR has called (yet...) for homosexuals to be thrown off of buildings.

Why should I use the government to punish people who want to engage in perverted behavior?  They have the liberty to do whatever the hell they want within the law. 

Their liberty ends when it infringes upon mine.

My issue is with people who think the government should impel, force and punish people who will not acknowledge, celebrate and serve that deviant behavior under the bogus auspices of public accommodation and anti-discrimination.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Online goatprairie

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #827 on: January 07, 2018, 02:06:00 PM »
Why should I use the government to punish people who want to engage in perverted behavior?  They have the liberty to do whatever the hell they want within the law. 

Their liberty ends when it infringes upon mine.

My issue is with people who think the government should impel, force and punish people who will not acknowledge, celebrate and serve that deviant behavior under the bogus auspices of public accommodation and anti-discrimination.
Forcing a business to make things i.e. involuntarily promote things for actions they abhor is not much removed from being  forced to cheer actions they abhor at their work place or other gatherings. The day for the latter  is fast approaching.
That means we will be closer to another violent civil war.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #828 on: January 07, 2018, 02:24:41 PM »
If everyone who's allegedly concerned about these bakers simply puts their money where their mouth is, the fine would be paid in a flash.


Perhaps even more offending is paying for that reward to gloating rainbow nazis.
Not a chance in hell.

I think I'll find a way to move some cash to that baker.

Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #829 on: January 07, 2018, 02:39:14 PM »
I've yet to get an answer from any of the posters here who like the idea of the state forcing a business to make something it doesn't want to make whether if they ran a business, they'd do exactly as (to them) an obnoxious customer demands.
That is the crux of the matter. Again, religion and art are subordinate to the principle of a business being allowed to manufacture what it does without being forced to do so.
I can't believe some of the comments by the pro-force posters. "Well, it's just a cake...bake the cake" they say. Well then, some Nazis (legal group) demand I make them a sign with Nazi symbols.  Would these same people say "make the sign...it's just a sign" ? They don't answer.
Of course, what is really the problem is they just don't understand the antipathy many Christian people have towards homosexuality no matter how often the proponents of homosexuality shout how normal it is.
But even I agree that in many matters homosexuals should not be discriminated against.
But again, that is not the crux of this matter WHICH THE PRO-FORCE CROWD STILL DOES NOT UNDERSTAND. The crux is a business should not be forced to make something it doesn't want to make.
Serving is not the same thing as creating/making/manufacuring. I don't know how many times that has to be repeated before it sinks in.

So why should a builder be forced to build in accordance with an otherwise duly enacted building code?

Offline Axeslinger

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #830 on: January 07, 2018, 02:45:06 PM »
So why should a builder be forced to build in accordance with an otherwise duly enacted building code?
@Oceander
You’ve said this a few times.   Either you’re dense or being deliberately obtuse.

Because that building code ensures the public safety.  Pretty sure the plaintiffs safety was not harmed by potentially having to seek a new baker.

Stop being stupid....it doesn’t suit you.  Now answer @goatprairie  question above.
"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." - Thomas Jefferson

Offline INVAR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #831 on: January 07, 2018, 02:47:04 PM »
Forcing a business to make things i.e. involuntarily promote things for actions they abhor is not much removed from being  forced to cheer actions they abhor at their work place or other gatherings. The day for the latter  is fast approaching.
That means we will be closer to another violent civil war.

Make no mistake, the underlying purpose behind all of this is to criminalize beliefs that are not championed by the state and it's advocacy of tyranny mobs.  I cannot tell you the numbers of people who actually think that your personal right to believe what you want is limited to what is between your ears only.  They proceed from the stated position that if your beliefs are "harmful" to the self-esteem and feelings of others - your speech, religion and belief MUST be regulated so as to promote 'fairness' and 'equality'.  There are already groups who want to criminalize parents who teach their children from the scriptures, insisting that is a form of brainwashing and detrimental to the progressive push of society.  Punishing 'bigots' is an advocacy growing by leaps and bounds from college campuses and agitating groups working to push local governments to enact punitive policies against anything stated to be 'offensive' to a special needs advocacy.

All one needs to do is look at the secular Marxist/Communist regimes of the world to see that what I posted above is part and parcel of what a statist governing system imposes on its subjects and slaves.

And that is what a growing number of people within this population want.  Forced conformity to statist thought.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #832 on: January 07, 2018, 02:50:08 PM »
@Oceander
You’ve said this a few times.   Either you’re dense or being deliberately obtuse.

Because that building code ensures the public safety.  Pretty sure the plaintiffs safety was not harmed by potentially having to seek a new baker.

Stop being stupid....it doesn’t suit you.  Now answer @goatprairie  question above.

And the Oregon law ensures that all Oregonians are provided the same level of service and goods at public accommodations without regard to irrelevant attributes such as sexual orientation.  You may not think that’s important, and you’re entitled to your opinion, but Oregonians do think it’s important. 

Therefore, the Oregonian law serves a public purpose that is just as valid as any other public purpose, including public safety.  Accordingly, if enforcing a public purpose is the benchmark for when it’s ok to force a business to do something it doesn’t want to do, then your position justifies enforcement of this Oregon law just as much as it does enforcement of the building code.

Try again. 

Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #833 on: January 07, 2018, 02:52:05 PM »
Make no mistake, the underlying purpose behind all of this is to criminalize beliefs that are not championed by the state and it's advocacy of tyranny mobs.  I cannot tell you the numbers of people who actually think that your personal right to believe what you want is limited to what is between your ears only.  They proceed from the stated position that if your beliefs are "harmful" to the self-esteem and feelings of others - your speech, religion and belief MUST be regulated so as to promote 'fairness' and 'equality'.  There are already groups who want to criminalize parents who teach their children from the scriptures, insisting that is a form of brainwashing and detrimental to the progressive push of society.  Punishing 'bigots' is an advocacy growing by leaps and bounds from college campuses and agitating groups working to push local governments to enact punitive policies against anything stated to be 'offensive' to a special needs advocacy.

All one needs to do is look at the secular Marxist/Communist regimes of the world to see that what I posted above is part and parcel of what a statist governing system imposes on its subjects and slaves.

And that is what a growing number of people within this population want.  Forced conformity to statist thought.

The Oregon law in question does none of those things.  It simply imposes a civil penalty on certain types of discrimination in the provision of goods or services by a public accommodation. 

Offline Axeslinger

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #834 on: January 07, 2018, 02:54:24 PM »
Thank you for point that out to him, @HoustonSam  @INVAR ... 

Soon as pulled that card, everything he posts appears as "blah, blah, blah" on my screens.

Would love to entertain your definition of "reasonable" debate, here without being compared with the staff at Auschwitz.   *****rollingeyes*****

@DCPatriot  your automatic dismissal of @INVAR point diminishes you.  His point is very plainly that the COURSE laid out by this verdict can only lead to one destination.  And as such, that COURSE  should be deviated from by all liberty loving Americans. Put simply: when the state can dictate the terms of our contracts AND whether we enter into those contracts or not, then the path towards totalitarianism is set.
"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Axeslinger

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #835 on: January 07, 2018, 02:57:06 PM »
And the Oregon law ensures that all Oregonians are provided the same level of service and goods at public accommodations without regard to irrelevant attributes such as sexual orientation.  You may not think that’s important, and you’re entitled to your opinion, but Oregonians do think it’s important. 

Therefore, the Oregonian law serves a public purpose that is just as valid as any other public purpose, including public safety.  Accordingly, if enforcing a public purpose is the benchmark for when it’s ok to force a business to do something it doesn’t want to do, then your position justifies enforcement of this Oregon law just as much as it does enforcement of the building code.

Try again.

@Oceander You try again.  I stipulated the difference between a building code and this case.  I answered your question.  AND as was indicated all the way back on page 1 of this thread, your citing of “Oregon law” doesn’t amount to much either if the law (and all laws that violate the freedom of association) are unconstitutional. Now have the intellectual honesty to answer @goatprairie
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 03:14:32 PM by Axeslinger »
"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." - Thomas Jefferson

Online txradioguy

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #836 on: January 07, 2018, 03:04:00 PM »
@DCPatriot  your automatic dismissal of @INVAR point diminishes you.  His point is very plainly that the COURSE laid out by this verdict can only lead to one destination.  And as such, that COURSE  should be deviated from by all liberty loving Americans. Put simply: when the state can dictate the terms of our contracts AND whether we enter into those contracts or not, then the path towards totalitarianism is set.

You have to understand in these threads that DCP takes the stance of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"...he doesn't like most of the people taking the opposite stance of Jazzy...so he's siding with Jazzy.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #837 on: January 07, 2018, 03:09:07 PM »
@Hoodat

I honestly don't understand how anyone can fail to recognize that absolute fact. EVERY totalitarian government since the dawn of history has worked from the same blueprint.

Yeah,the communists love to PRETEND that "the state" owns all production,but they fail to admit that the Party Leaders own the state. The reality is they were no different than any other dictators in history,which can be summed up as "Mine,mine,MINE,DAMMIT!"

And the modern reality is that our present day "Corporate World" is nothing but fascism wearing a fancy dress. Nobody really owns any of the big corporations. Many,many people "own" tiny little pieces of it,but they might be worth a lot of money one day,and nothing the next if "the market" determines they are worthless.

"The Market" ain't thee and me. "The Market" is controlled by the international banks. They give,and they take away,according to their needs at the moment.

Pay VERY close attention to the way modern corporations are ran,because unless there are drastic changes made,the entire world will be ran by corporate boards within another 20-30 years,and each "subsidiary" will report to "World Wide Government,Inc",which will itself be populated by the most powerful financiers from each region of the world,and they will have total control over every aspect of your descendants lives,including where they live,how the live,where they work,how many children they can have IF they are allowed to have children at all,how old you are allowed to get before company policy decides to pull your plug  based on a cost/benefit chart,etc,etc,etc.

At one point in American history our government controlled the corporations to keep them from becoming too powerful and subverting the Constitution. Now the corporations own the politicians and keep them in line.
Yep.
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Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #838 on: January 07, 2018, 03:09:45 PM »
When they insist that your beliefs are no different than those of Jihadist Islam, and that your beliefs are a menace and danger to society - why is the probability of such people arguing in favor of forced labor camps out of the realm of possibility?  We shipped Jihadists to Guantanamo did we not?

I know where this zeitgeist leads if not arrested. And it will not end with government and courts being used to forced private businesses to serve deviant behaviors.

I'm not saying it *can't* happen @INVAR.  I'm saying that in fact it *hasn't* happened; no one on this thread has argued that you and I should be confined to a labor camp for our beliefs.  When they do argue that I'll be right beside you.  *Until* they argue that it's a counter-productive distraction that just causes people to ignore you.

We can't win this fight with wild punches.
James 1:20

Offline Axeslinger

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #839 on: January 07, 2018, 03:10:50 PM »
You have to understand in these threads that DCP takes the stance of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"...he doesn't like most of the people taking the opposite stance of Jazzy...so he's siding with Jazzy.

@txradioguy
Trust me...I get it.
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #840 on: January 07, 2018, 03:12:15 PM »
The Oregon law in question does none of those things.  It simply imposes a civil penalty on certain types of discrimination in the provision of goods or services by a public accommodation.

And once pedophiles become a protected advocacy that demand recognition and approval by society of their perverted behavior, you're perfectly fine with using the state to punish and run a business out of business if they refuse to produce goods and services that celebrate man/child sex?

Once people demand to marry and have sex with their pets and demand recognition and approval by society of their perverted behavior, you're perfectly fine with using the state to punish a business and persons if they refuse to produce goods and services that celebrate animal marriage and sex?

Once Polygamists become a protected advocacy group and demand recognition and approval by society of their perverted behavior, you're perfectly fine with using the state to punish a business and persons if they refuse to produce goods and services that celebrate multiple marriages?

Of course you are.  Because using government to create special rights for deviant behaviors as a protected class and group with special privileges and acknowledgement will always engender using government as a rod of punishment to force normalization and recognition of state-approved behaviors as of supremacy to everything else.  Your road to tyranny is already paved with good intentions yielding unintended consequences.

Once you get behavior to become state-sponsored, political beliefs and views both political and religious become the very next target of state-approved advocacy that all must adhere to, or face state-sanctioned punishment.

Liberty dies to thunderous applause.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Axeslinger

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #841 on: January 07, 2018, 03:12:58 PM »
I'm not saying it *can't* happen @INVAR.  I'm saying that in fact it *hasn't* happened; no one on this thread has argued that you and I should be confined to a labor camp for our beliefs.  When they do argue that I'll be right beside you.  *Until* they argue that it's a counter-productive distraction that just causes people to ignore you.

We can't win this fight with wild punches.

Little poem by Martin Niemöller comes to mind @HoustonSam
"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." - Thomas Jefferson

Online DCPatriot

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #842 on: January 07, 2018, 03:18:29 PM »
@DCPatriot  your automatic dismissal of @INVAR point diminishes you.  His point is very plainly that the COURSE laid out by this verdict can only lead to one destination.  And as such, that COURSE  should be deviated from by all liberty loving Americans. Put simply: when the state can dictate the terms of our contracts AND whether we enter into those contracts or not, then the path towards totalitarianism is set.

Was referring to @INVAR 's penchant when cornered, to bring out the "Round 'em up, Head 'em out!!....to FEMA Camps".  It "diminishes" him.

I actually agree with his stance on this.  Why shouldn't I...as owner of my own business,...choose with whom I do business?

But I also agree with @Luis Gonzalez , who succinctly points out that decisions have consequences.

"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

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Online DCPatriot

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #843 on: January 07, 2018, 03:19:15 PM »
@txradioguy
Trust me...I get it.

You don't "get" sh*t!     :laugh:

...and isn't my stalker, cute?   

@txradioguy   @Axeslinger
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 03:20:17 PM by DCPatriot »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #844 on: January 07, 2018, 03:25:21 PM »
Oh come on, @INVAR, I don't really think @Jazzhead has argued (yet.....) that you and I can be marched off to labor camps.  This is what I mean by being reasonable.  There is plenty solid ground for us to argue in favor of our position and against his, don't intentionally take up ground that isn't defensible.
Who needs labor camps?

Such slavery was recognized as economically nonviable anyway (increasingly, over a century and a half ago), requiring feeding, clothing, housing, even some medical care (or burial details). Camps are a last resort, in more ways than one.

How about instead, you provide reprogramming disguised as "entertainment" and "education" and just prosecute the people who don't willing suck that crap up as gospel? --and let them find their own means of feeding, housing, clothing and doctoring themselves with a 'safety net' for those who can't or won't?

Oh wait, we do that already.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
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There are no "Socialists", no "Progressives", only Communists, with every negative image that totalitarianism might muster, demanding fealty and conformity to their views, with a legacy of 150,000,000 dead and counting.

Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #845 on: January 07, 2018, 03:27:08 PM »
Well, what do you think ISIS is but religious zealotry taken to an extreme degree?   And how is INVAR really any different, with his moral certitude, hubris, and intolerance backed up by implied threats of violence?

@Jazzhead , @INVAR tells me in 821 :

Quote
Why should I use the government to punish people who want to engage in perverted behavior?  They have the liberty to do whatever the hell they want within the law. 

Now I realize you object strenuously to his expression, and I realize that the cases in question are to determine what is within the law.  But do you seriously maintain that he's no different from ISIS?  Can you not see that is precisely *why* he argues that you would treat him the same way our government treats ISIS?

I understand that both of you fellows profess the same atonement, confess the same Saviour, and anticipate the same resurrection as me.  Our Lord prayed for our unity at Gethsemane.  I would ask the two of you to reflect on that.  BTW my church took communion today, and I prayed for both of you according to the names by which I know you, Jazzhead and INVAR.
James 1:20

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Offline Axeslinger

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #847 on: January 07, 2018, 03:28:13 PM »
Was referring to @INVAR 's penchant when cornered, to bring out the "Round 'em up, Head 'em out!!....to FEMA Camps".  It "diminishes" him.

I actually agree with his stance on this.  Why shouldn't I...as owner of my own business,...choose with whom I do business?

But I also agree with @Luis Gonzalez , who succinctly points out that decisions have consequences.

@DCPatriot I agree with both points as well, which is why all anti discrimination forcing businesses to do business with person X are unconstitutional. Ultimately these laws attempt to legislate the business owner’s morality...and as public perception of morality changes and each person’s morality is likely to be different, the state should not be put in the position of legislating morality.  The market should dictate.  Thus as public perception changes (slavery, gay marriage, sex with cacti, whatever) individual businesses can adapt as their morality allows and their business will survive as the market allows.  It is the perfect and constitutional intersection of individual morality and individual liberty.
"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." - Thomas Jefferson

Offline INVAR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #848 on: January 07, 2018, 03:28:20 PM »
I'm not saying it *can't* happen.  I'm saying that in fact it *hasn't* happened;

Well, you are welcome to remain silent about it until someone decides to make that an official government policy and offers you a small window to register your opposition before it takes effect. 

I'm not going to wait until we get to that point.  Policy begins when a tireless minority pushes for government to advocate for a position that can be used to administer punitive acts in order to force compliance upon the whole.  Now that behavior is by default, a minority group that can receive special rights and privileges that society must grant it - the imposition of a hard tyranny is already set in motion.

There are enough people out there advocating people be jailed and punished for their religious and political beliefs because they are 'offensive to society'.  Do you think the removal of Confederate monuments was just a fluke of national hysteria?  Being free from 'offense' is a zeitgeist expanding in power and policy.  It doesn't stop with protected behaviors, but will extend toward application upon anyone and any belief an aggrieved group declares 'offensive'.   Our local resident Leftist actually advocated and applauds the notion of government-imposed punishment upon whom he declares 'bigots', because as you know - 'bigotry has no place in modern society'.

So you expunge it via government policy under the guises of anti-discrimination and public accommodation - and thus policing thought and belief becomes official government policy.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline INVAR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #849 on: January 07, 2018, 03:31:18 PM »
I understand that both of you fellows profess the same atonement, confess the same Saviour, and anticipate the same resurrection as me. 

Actually Sam.  That is not true.

He and I have polar opposite understandings of who and what our Savior is, where we learn of His Will, and what He expects of those who call him Lord.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 03:31:38 PM by INVAR »
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775


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