Author Topic: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case  (Read 23673 times)

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Offline INVAR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #75 on: January 02, 2018, 11:07:48 AM »
Just because one may claim religious justification for bigotry doesn't change its stripes, certainly not to those who disagree with that religion. 

Goes especially for the homosexual religion, who have raised bigotry towards anyone who will not kiss their parts in celebration, to an art form.

   Live your own life as your conscience requires.   Just don't impose your moral edicts on others.

Unless you are of the Homosexual religion like Jazzy here.  THEN, you can impose your moral edicts upon those who refuse to submit to homosharia and use the government to destroy persons and businesses that will not bow down and serve it.

Your whole presence here on this subject is to impose your homosexual morality on others - BY FORCE.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #76 on: January 02, 2018, 11:08:15 AM »
Then it should be no significant burden to profit handsomely from the production of wedding cakes.   99.80% of your business won't violate your "conscience".   

@Jazzhead

Thats 99.98% of my business doesn't need one of these.

I don't cater to .02% of the market and expect to survive as a business.

You leftist know all about slavery and have supported it for a couple hundred years.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #77 on: January 02, 2018, 11:18:28 AM »
No one is forcing this baker/artist to make wedding cakes.
Nor is anyone forcing people to buy from them.

It is a two way street, that thing called freedom.
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Online goatprairie

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #78 on: January 02, 2018, 11:24:49 AM »
Not so.  The baker is under no legal obligation to make wedding cakes for anyone.   That's his choice.  Having made that choice, the community's requirement is merely, and only, that he not discriminate.   

Why is it "immoral" for the community to require that a baker provide the services that he advertises to provide?
You completely misunderstand the issue. The baker is not denying service to a homosexual couple. The homosexual couple is free to buy anything the baker makes.
However, the customer has no right to demand the baker make him a particular kind of cake.
If I'm a painter and I only paint wildlife scenes, nobody has the right to demand I paint some other kind of picture.
If I only paint religious paintings for Christian clientele, nobody has the right to force me to paint paintings for other religions.
It is the basic right of a business to make whatever it wants to make.  Nobody is being refused service. They simply don't have the right to demand the business owner make them something he or she doesn't want to make.

Online Neverdul

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #79 on: January 02, 2018, 11:25:20 AM »
If the baker is asked to decorate the cake in a manner that “celebrates” gay marriage in anyway, such has with messages, rainbow flags, or two “grooms” or two “brides” on the top, I can certainly understand their objection. But if they are just baking and decorating a wedding cake such as the one pictured below, I don’t get it. That would just be a cake.



Then again as a more libertarian minded person, I guess they and anyone else should be able to service or refuse service to anyone they like.

So when the devout Christian couple who are about to marry and are wearing their crosses and their "Marriage Is Only Between One Man and One Woman Because God Says So" tee shirts happens to go to a bakery where the owner is gay, perhaps he can refuse to bake their cake, or the atheist baker or the baker who doesn’t think a mix race couple, should one of them be black and the other white, should marry.  So be it.

I guess the Muslim tow truck driver can also refuse service to a woman driving alone, or the Jewish deli refuse to cater a Christmas party and so on. What if the baker hates, “gingers”? At the end of the day, someone’s ox is going to get gored and I’m not saying that is a bad thing, but it’s probably not a good thing either.

I recall not long ago, a bit bugaboo when some pro-life and anti-gay protesters went into a coffee shop across the street from where they were protesting, and the owner who was gay, threw them out.

I guess I support his decision as long as he would support the Christian baker for refusing to serve customers who they are ideologically or religiously opposed to.
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #80 on: January 02, 2018, 11:28:43 AM »
If the baker is asked to decorate the cake in a manner that “celebrates” gay marriage in anyway, such has with messages, rainbow flags, or two “grooms” or two “brides” on the top, I can certainly understand their objection. But if they are just baking and decorating a wedding cake such as the one pictured below, I don’t get it. That would just be a cake.



Then again as a more libertarian minded person, I guess they and anyone else should be able to service or refuse service to anyone they like.

So when the devout Christian couple who are about to marry and are wearing their crosses and their "Marriage Is Only Between One Man and One Woman Because God Says So" tee shirts happens to go to a bakery where the owner is gay, perhaps he can refuse to bake their cake, or the atheist baker or the baker who doesn’t think a mix race couple, should one of them be black and the other white, should marry.  So be it.

I guess the Muslim tow truck driver can also refuse service to a woman driving alone, or the Jewish deli refuse to cater a Christmas party and so on. What if the baker hates, “gingers”? At the end of the day, someone’s ox is going to get gored and I’m not saying that is a bad thing, but it’s probably not a good thing either.

I recall not long ago, a bit bugaboo when some pro-life and anti-gay protesters went into a coffee shop across the street from where they were protesting, and the owner who was gay, threw them out.

I guess I support his decision as long as he would support the Christian baker for refusing to serve customers who they are ideologically or religiously opposed to.

Thats just it, this is a one way street.  Endorse their agenda or be marginalized in the public square.  Be labeled all kinds of nasty evil things because you don't want to sell them a wedding cake.

In most cases a wedding cake is not just a cake.  its also participating in the wedding.  Unless its a simple cake like you posted.   
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Online DCPatriot

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #81 on: January 02, 2018, 11:29:49 AM »
@jpsb

I don't care if its art or not, just because I have a business doesn't mean I'm a slave.

I'd still bake the cake...but just not put my heart and soul into 'The Presentation'.

This way, at least you get paid when some jerk forces you to 'bark' and sit.

And bye the bye...how many of us know a bakery shop owner who advertises wedding cakes, who would refuse the order like these two Birkenstock wearing weenies?    :laugh:
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Online goatprairie

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #82 on: January 02, 2018, 11:34:03 AM »
If the baker is asked to decorate the cake in a manner that “celebrates” gay marriage in anyway, such has with messages, rainbow flags, or two “grooms” or two “brides” on the top, I can certainly understand their objection. But if they are just baking and decorating a wedding cake such as the one pictured below, I don’t get it. That would just be a cake.



Then again as a more libertarian minded person, I guess they and anyone else should be able to service or refuse service to anyone they like.

So when the devout Christian couple who are about to marry and are wearing their crosses and their "Marriage Is Only Between One Man and One Woman Because God Says So" tee shirts happens to go to a bakery where the owner is gay, perhaps he can refuse to bake their cake, or the atheist baker or the baker who doesn’t think a mix race couple, should one of them be black and the other white, should marry.  So be it.

I guess the Muslim tow truck driver can also refuse service to a woman driving alone, or the Jewish deli refuse to cater a Christmas party and so on. What if the baker hates, “gingers”? At the end of the day, someone’s ox is going to get gored and I’m not saying that is a bad thing, but it’s probably not a good thing either.

I recall not long ago, a bit bugaboo when some pro-life and anti-gay protesters went into a coffee shop across the street from where they were protesting, and the owner who was gay, threw them out.

I guess I support his decision as long as he would support the Christian baker for refusing to serve customers who they are ideologically or religiously opposed to.
But nobody is being refused service. What is at issue here is the right of a business to make/create items it wants to make without being forced (at gunpoint) to make what it does not want to make.
The cake baker didn't refuse service to the homosexual couple. It simply used its constitutional right to refuse to make something it didn't want to make. The homosexual couple were free to purchase any item in the bakery. Or a standard wedding cake of the business owner's idea.
It doesn't matter if it's a trivial item or not, no one has the right to force a business to make something it doesn't want to make. To do otherwise is entering into tyranny.

Offline INVAR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #83 on: January 02, 2018, 11:41:48 AM »
It is the basic right of a business to make whatever it wants to make.  Nobody is being refused service. They simply don't have the right to demand the business owner make them something he or she doesn't want to make.

Not according to our resident meddlesome tyrants who support government forcing you to make what Homosharia demands, or you will be forced out of business.

As they have said - if you do not want to serve homosexuals - do not go into business for profit.

Next week they will lecture us that churches have no right to discriminate whom they marry, and this entire issue will be revisited on yet another level.
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...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Online goatprairie

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #84 on: January 02, 2018, 11:57:53 AM »
Not according to our resident meddlesome tyrants who support government forcing you to make what Homosharia demands, or you will be forced out of business.

As they have said - if you do not want to serve homosexuals - do not go into business for profit.

Next week they will lecture us that churches have no right to discriminate whom they marry, and this entire issue will be revisited on yet another level.
A number of them are already demanding/threatening churches if they don't want to marry homosexuals.
What all the petty fascists in America and on this forum don't understand is the difference between being served and forcing someone i.e. a business to make something specially for them.
Nobody has the right to demand a business make them something the business does not want to make.
If a homosexual couple can force a business to make them a specially designed cake, then anybody can force any other business to make them something special whether the business wants to make it or not.
There are innumerable other businesses where accusations of prejudice and discrimination can be applied similar to this case.  And the accusers don't have to be homosexuals. It can be anybody claiming discrimination because the business won't make them a special item.
When we've crossed that line, we've entered into tyranny.

Offline INVAR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #85 on: January 02, 2018, 12:21:47 PM »
A number of them are already demanding/threatening churches if they don't want to marry homosexuals.
What all the petty fascists in America and on this forum don't understand is the difference between being served and forcing someone i.e. a business to make something specially for them.

Oh they understand it perfectly well. They want to impose tyranny, because their newfound morality seeks to punish what they deem 'bigotry', while at the same time insisting reciprocal treatment is discriminatory. 

Some animals are more equal than others.

Homosharia is the newfound religious crusade against the intolerant Christian infidels who must be made to serve and bow before the god of perversion and tolerance for abomination.

Nobody has the right to demand a business make them something the business does not want to make.

If you are in business to make a profit - then according to the meddlesome tyrants - YES, they can.  They will lecture you that discrimination is criminal and that you do not have a right to exercise your beliefs in public or if you operate a business for profit.  You must serve whom they tell you must serve, and craft and create whatever it is they tell you must craft and create.

Unless you think and act as the Beast demands, you will not be permitted to make a living.

If a homosexual couple can force a business to make them a specially designed cake, then anybody can force any other business to make them something special whether the business wants to make it or not.

That is in-fact, the goal as stated by the leaders of the Gay Mafia.  All must serve the homosexual and their appetites.  That is the nature of that abomination, and it will force itself on those who refuse to acquiesce to it.  Genesis 19 already bears that fact out.  Nothing new under the sun.

There are innumerable other businesses where accusations of prejudice and discrimination can be applied similar to this case.  And the accusers don't have to be homosexuals. It can be anybody claiming discrimination because the business won't make them a special item.
When we've crossed that line, we've entered into tyranny.

It's already being crossed to much applause.

What they choose to overlook is that those pushing this meddlesome tyranny are exactly the reason we have a Second Amendment in the first place.

We have an historical heritage of a people willing to kill agents of tyranny over a 3% tax on tea.  Imagine what kind of vengeance would have ensued if the king's agents attempted to do what the Homosharia fanatics are attempting to do today?

The question in the future is going to be whether or not agents of tyranny are going to be willing to risk their lives attempting to force Americans to serve homosexuals at the end of a gun?

Because that is what it is going to come down to.
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...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #86 on: January 02, 2018, 12:37:05 PM »
Forcing an artist to create a work of art that violates his/her moral principles is not constitutional
nor is it good government. An artist is free to decide which commissions he/she will take and
which he/she will not take. I fine it very troubling that the big government conservatives (liberals)
would argue otherwise.

What is the difference between an artist and a craftsman? And why should it matter?
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Online goatprairie

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #87 on: January 02, 2018, 01:13:14 PM »
What is the difference between an artist and a craftsman? And why should it matter?
In the realm of law as applied to this issue, there is none. It does not matter one whit whether what a business makes is art or just your typical widget.
It is nobody's business what the business owner makes and neither does a person have the right to demand the business make them a certain, special product.
Discrimination is being refused service given to other people.  This is not this case.  The baker was perfectly willing to sell the homosexual couple his standard wedding cake.
However, if I advertise that I make cakes for all legally determined married couples and refuse to bake one for a homosexual couple (or black, brown, whatever), then I am discriminating.
If I advertise I only make certain types of designed cakes, and am willing to sell them to a homosexual couple, I am not discriminating. They can take it or leave it.
If a homosexual-owned business say they only make items designed for homosexuals, that is their right. I do not have the right to force them to make items for heterosexuals. And to be sure, I'm willing to bet there numerous businesses that cater to special sexual types and will not make things for other groups. Do people think Victoria's Secret would be discriminating or "bigoted" if they refused to make Christian Holy Communion outfits? Of course not. 
But if the homosexual couple can claim discrimination, then I could claim discrimination if they refused to make one for my child
The people on this forum are championing the "right" of the homosexual to get a specially designed cake are championing tyranny.

Online goatprairie

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #88 on: January 02, 2018, 01:17:31 PM »

Making a custom cake is creating a work of art. It is an artist endeavor like painting a portrait
Would you require a working artist to also create art  work that violated his conscience? Absurd.
Don't go down the "art" road. It does not matter one whit whether what the baker makes is art or not. It is the baker's right to bake whatever he or she wants to bake. All businesses have the right to make/create whatever they want without being forced to make something they don't want to make.

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #89 on: January 02, 2018, 01:22:47 PM »
Don't go down the "art" road. It does not matter one whit whether what the baker makes is art or not. It is the baker's right to bake whatever he or she wants to bake. All businesses have the right to make/create whatever they want without being forced to make something they don't want to make.

Really?  So I can start a car company and make a car that doesn’t meet mandatory safety requirements because those safety requirements are cramping my style and messing with the aesthetic design of my car?

So I can start a residential construction company and build houses that don’t meet the relevant building code?  After all, the building code forces me to build something in a way I might disagree with. 

Online Jazzhead

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #90 on: January 02, 2018, 01:29:21 PM »
But nobody is being refused service. What is at issue here is the right of a business to make/create items it wants to make without being forced (at gunpoint) to make what it does not want to make.
The cake baker didn't refuse service to the homosexual couple. It simply used its constitutional right to refuse to make something it didn't want to make. The homosexual couple were free to purchase any item in the bakery. Or a standard wedding cake of the business owner's idea.
It doesn't matter if it's a trivial item or not, no one has the right to force a business to make something it doesn't want to make. To do otherwise is entering into tyranny.

I have no objection to any of that.   But those aren't the facts at hand.    No baker is forced to make wedding cakes if it doesn't want to.  He can always stick to buns and rolls.   But this baker wanted to bake wedding cakes, and enjoy the profits therefrom - as well as the right to discriminate among its customers.   Sorry, you can't have it both ways.  Don't bake wedding cakes.  But if you trumpet to the general public  that you do, then stay true to your word, and serve your customers without regard to their sexual orientation.

For suggesting this simple code of common decency, I'm being accused of bigotry and tyranny?   Ridiculous.     
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 01:30:32 PM by Jazzhead »
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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #91 on: January 02, 2018, 01:41:22 PM »
Don't go down the "art" road. It does not matter one whit whether what the baker makes is art or not. It is the baker's right to bake whatever he or she wants to bake. All businesses have the right to make/create whatever they want without being forced to make something they don't want to make.
In California a real estate agent cannot discriminate for any reason. Not for race, religion, ethnic or national origin, handicap, or sexual orientation etc.

If I hold myself to be "open for business," and I am approached by a same-sex couple, I will get sued if I refuse them service.

I believe that is true, for many/most professions, businesses, in most if not all states.

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Offline verga

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #92 on: January 02, 2018, 01:51:35 PM »
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Online goatprairie

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #93 on: January 02, 2018, 01:52:44 PM »
In California a real estate agent cannot discriminate for any reason. Not for race, religion, ethnic or national origin, handicap, or sexual orientation etc.

If I hold myself to be "open for business," and I am approached by a same-sex couple, I will get sued if I refuse them service.

I believe that is true, for many/most professions, businesses, in most if not all states.
But it's not the same thing. The cake baker was not denying service...he was refusing to bake a certain kind of cake.
If I am a realtor and a homosexual couple asks me to find them a home,  I'll gladly do my best to find them a home.
But if the homosexual couple demands that I find them a certain type of home or they'll sue me, then we have a case similar to the cake baker issue.
The realtor will do his or her best to find any couple a home.  It  is not the realtor's problem if the homosexual couple (or any couple) do not like what the realtor finds.
It's a two way street. A customer is under no obligation to buy something when he enters a store, and the store owner is under no obligation to provide a special whatever for the customer. That's called freedom...both sides win.

Online roamer_1

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #94 on: January 02, 2018, 01:55:43 PM »
The "right of association" does not generally apply to commercial enterprises.  If it were, then none of the anti-discrimination laws would be constitutional.

None of them are constitutional.

Online roamer_1

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #95 on: January 02, 2018, 02:04:07 PM »
Commercial speech receives less protection than non-commercial speech, and no matter how “artistic” it may be, if it’s done for profit as part of a business, it’s commercial speech, at most.

Herein lies the camel's nose of governmental censorship.

Online Jazzhead

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #96 on: January 02, 2018, 02:05:23 PM »
It's a two way street. A customer is under no obligation to buy something when he enters a store, and the store owner is under no obligation to provide a special whatever for the customer. That's called freedom...both sides win.

Correct.  Except that the baker advertised that he sold wedding cakes.  Yes, state law requires that he not discriminate, but the core reason for his obligation is his word.   I'd like to think that conservatives (and Christians) of all stripes would agree that staying true to one's word is a virtue.

And that pointing such a simple and basic thing out is not grounds for being branded a bigot and a tyrant.     
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Online roamer_1

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #97 on: January 02, 2018, 02:06:18 PM »
Why is it "immoral" for the community to require that a baker provide the services that he advertises to provide?

Because every sale is in fact a contract, and no one should be made to enter a contract against his will.

Contracts are mutually agreeable, or they are not contracts.

Online Jazzhead

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #98 on: January 02, 2018, 02:08:23 PM »
Herein lies the camel's nose of governmental censorship.

 Exaggerate much?  After all, what we're arguing about is a simple rule that a businessman be true to his word.  This isn't "censorship", of even the camel's nose variety.   
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

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Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #99 on: January 02, 2018, 02:10:18 PM »
But it's not the same thing. The cake baker was not denying service...he was refusing to bake a certain kind of cake.
If I am a realtor and a homosexual couple asks me to find them a home,  I'll gladly do my best to find them a home.
But if the homosexual couple demands that I find them a certain type of home or they'll sue me, then we have a case similar to the cake baker issue.
The realtor will do his or her best to find any couple a home.  It  is not the realtor's problem if the homosexual couple (or any couple) do not like what the realtor finds.
It's a two way street. A customer is under no obligation to buy something when he enters a store, and the store owner is under no obligation to provide a special whatever for the customer. That's called freedom...both sides win.

It’s exactly the same thing.  It’s just like things like redlining, where real estate agents used to not show certain types of houses in certain neighborhoods to blacks and other disfavored people. 


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