Author Topic: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case  (Read 23671 times)

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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2017, 04:58:46 PM »
The "right of association" does not generally apply to commercial enterprises.  If it were, then none of the anti-discrimination laws would be constitutional.

Makes sense to me.  From what I read, it's only been around since the 50's.
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Online Axeslinger

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2017, 05:22:30 PM »
...then none of the anti-discrimination laws would be constitutional.

First thing you’ve said I agree with...they aren’t.  If I run a business, I should be within my legal rights to discriminate (and in most cases that’s exactly what it is) against anyone I choose.  I should be able to discriminate against men or women, whites or blacks, gay or straight,  Christian or Muslim.  And my business will succeed or fail based upon society’s response to my business choices.

THAT is a free society.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 05:27:53 PM by Axeslinger »
"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2017, 06:21:46 PM »
I presume this couple will lose when the case eventually reaches the Oregon state supreme court.

If they have any hope, it must be seen in the forthcoming ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court.

If I were them, I'd file for bankruptcy, then move to as red a state as still can be found.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 06:22:04 PM by Fishrrman »

Offline Bigun

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2017, 06:55:24 PM »
First thing you’ve said I agree with...they aren’t.  If I run a business, I should be within my legal rights to discriminate (and in most cases that’s exactly what it is) against anyone I choose.  I should be able to discriminate against men or women, whites or blacks, gay or straight,  Christian or Muslim.  And my business will succeed or fail based upon society’s response to my business choices.

THAT is a free society.

The day ANY human being on this planet stops discriminating will very likely be the day he dies!

Offline INVAR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2017, 07:53:26 PM »
And he causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, that they must receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: (to act and to think in accord with the State) Thus no man may buy or sell (to make a living), except that he has that mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name (in his thoughts and actions). - Revelation 13:16-17
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2017, 08:17:14 PM »
It's absolutely fascinating the level of hatred displayed on this thread.
So why is it you exhibit such animosity for those who choose freedom over slavery?

You and the old school Democrats are a tight club, eh?
Yearning to stay free takes place in many ways at many different times, whether by withstanding planes or bayonets

Online verga

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2017, 08:36:05 PM »
It's very simple:  if you engage in a commercial enterprise, you follow reasonable rules or regulations, even if they violate your personal subjective beliefs, or you get penalized for it.

If the baker's personal religious beliefs were so damned precious to them, then they would have quit the cake-baking business.  That they did not, simply demonstrates that those beliefs aren't nearly as precious to them as they are now claiming.

There is nothing in the Constitution that guarantees complete freedom to do whatever the hell you want, and even less so when it comes to commercial activities, which have always received less protection than purely private noncommercial activities.

I know you don't like it, but that's only because you hate bleep and want the untrammelled right to discriminate against them.
@Oceander  8bs8
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
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If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken him completely by surprise.

Online verga

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2017, 08:38:56 PM »
You clearly don't know what the term "non sequitur" means (and it's not capitalized).  Is there a law that requires all delis to sell non-kosher meat or pork?

You haven't pointed to any, so your comparison is utterly meaningless.  Just like your hatred for gay people.
@Oceander My ignore list is reserved for only the biggest most ignorant A$$holes here, welcome to it.
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
�More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.�-Woody Allen
If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken him completely by surprise.

Offline goatprairie

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2017, 09:15:25 PM »
It's very simple:  if you engage in a commercial enterprise, you follow reasonable rules or regulations, even if they violate your personal subjective beliefs, or you get penalized for it.

If the baker's personal religious beliefs were so damned precious to them, then they would have quit the cake-baking business.  That they did not, simply demonstrates that those beliefs aren't nearly as precious to them as they are now claiming.

There is nothing in the Constitution that guarantees complete freedom to do whatever the hell you want, and even less so when it comes to commercial activities, which have always received less protection than purely private noncommercial activities.

I know you don't like it, but that's only because you hate bleep and want the untrammelled right to discriminate against them.
So basically you're taking the fascist position that if a customer demands a business make him a certain kind of product, the business must do exactly as the customer orders.
In what universe do you think this is anything but a fascist position?
I make certain types of widgets. A customer enters my business and demands I make him or her a certain kind of widget. I tell the customer he or she is free to purchase the widgets I make, but I do not make widgets I don't want to make.
The customer decides to enter the force of law into the issue and people with guns force me to make widgets I don't want to make.
It was never an issue of a baker refusing service to a customer. It was the issue of the baker being free to make whatever kinds of pastries he felt like.
NO CUSTOMER HAS THE RIGHT TO DEMAND AND FORCE AN OWNER OF A BUSINESS MAKE HIM OR HER A PARTICULAR KIND OF CAKE OR WIDGET!!!!!
To force a business to make things it doesn't want to make is entering into fascism.

Offline Joe Wooten

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2017, 11:47:42 PM »
It's absolutely fascinating the level of hatred displayed on this thread.

Hatred? That sounds like the last argument of the left when they lose on the facts. They call it hate and smear those beat them. I call it freedom.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2018, 08:34:30 AM »
This looks to me to be a total shakedown anyway.

$135,000 awarded for 'emotional distress', not by any court but by a thug bureaucrat?

3rd World country stuff.

That bureaucrat should be fired and pension removed for creating this situation as well as removing a business from the state.

I agree.   The successful plaintiffs should be awarded their counsel fees and damages in the amount of one dollar.   
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2018, 08:39:48 AM »
It's very simple:  if you engage in a commercial enterprise, you follow reasonable rules or regulations, even if they violate your personal subjective beliefs, or you get penalized for it.

If the baker's personal religious beliefs were so damned precious to them, then they would have quit the cake-baking business.  That they did not, simply demonstrates that those beliefs aren't nearly as precious to them as they are now claiming.

There is nothing in the Constitution that guarantees complete freedom to do whatever the hell you want, and even less so when it comes to commercial activities, which have always received less protection than purely private noncommercial activities.

I know you don't like it, but that's only because you hate bleep and want the untrammelled right to discriminate against them.

Well said,  Oceander.   Being required to follow the rules of the community when running a commercial enterprise is not slavery.   There are plenty of other ways to make a living if you can't bear making a cake for a gay wedding.   And this high-minded talk about freedom is just a demand that the community excuse bigotry when festooned in the cloak of religion.   
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

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"Not forever.  Just for now"

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Online verga

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2018, 09:03:05 AM »
Hatred? That sounds like the last argument of the left when they lose on the facts. They call it hate and smear those beat them. I call it freedom.
@Joe Wooten Considering that he is the one doing the most accusing of homophobia and bigotry.....
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
�More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.�-Woody Allen
If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken him completely by surprise.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2018, 09:11:48 AM »
@Joe Wooten Considering that he is the one doing the most accusing of homophobia and bigotry.....

And he's spot on.  Just because one may claim religious justification for bigotry doesn't change its stripes, certainly not to those who disagree with that religion.     Live your own life as your conscience requires.   Just don't impose your moral edicts on others. 
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

   - Duke Ellington, upon hearing of the death of Louis Armstrong

"Not forever.  Just for now"

    - Jay Farrar

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2018, 09:34:52 AM »
Followed this case like a typical conservative, and always 'knew' in my heart that "..the Supreme Court will straighten it out!"

So?   Were we lied to by the so-called 'Conservative' media this past year+?

What would make even a moderate leaning Court rule against the baker?   Especially, since there are cases involving Muslim-owned bakeries that are 'prosecuted' differently?

So?   WTF happened?   Is Ayn Rand a Prophet?   Up is Down?  Lie is 'Truth'?
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2018, 09:50:49 AM »
Well said,  Oceander.   Being required to follow the rules of the community when running a commercial enterprise is not slavery.   There are plenty of other ways to make a living if you can't bear making a cake for a gay wedding.   And this high-minded talk about freedom is just a demand that the community excuse bigotry when festooned in the cloak of religion.

@Jazzhead
Your version of freedom - to do anything one wants as long as its approved behavior.

You are the most bigoted person on this forum.   You condemn Christians at every turn.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2018, 09:52:36 AM »
Followed this case like a typical conservative, and always 'knew' in my heart that "..the Supreme Court will straighten it out!"

So?   Were we lied to by the so-called 'Conservative' media this past year+?

What would make even a moderate leaning Court rule against the baker?   Especially, since there are cases involving Muslim-owned bakeries that are 'prosecuted' differently?

So?   WTF happened?   Is Ayn Rand a Prophet?   Up is Down?  Lie is 'Truth'?

There are two issues here.   First, the legal right of a customer to enter a place of business and not be discriminated against with respect to the services the storeowner has advertised to provide.   Second,  the assessment of ruinous monetary damages in the event a storeowner is found - in a case never decided before - to have violated the law. 

The customer was right to challenge this baker and win a legal victory.   But $135,000 in damages for "emotional distress"  is not justifiable.   The baker should pay the plaintiff's legal costs, but should not, in a case of first impression,  be effectively driven out of business for not knowing what the law is. 

Going forward, once everyone's obligations under laws like these are known,  monetary damages may be appropriate when proven.   But not with respect to this baker, who is being punished unfairly for taking a position she thought reasonable at the time.    The remedy should be equitable, not punitive.     
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 09:53:41 AM by Jazzhead »
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2018, 09:53:24 AM »
Followed this case like a typical conservative, and always 'knew' in my heart that "..the Supreme Court will straighten it out!"

So?   Were we lied to by the so-called 'Conservative' media this past year+?

What would make even a moderate leaning Court rule against the baker?   Especially, since there are cases involving Muslim-owned bakeries that are 'prosecuted' differently?

So?   WTF happened?   Is Ayn Rand a Prophet?   Up is Down?  Lie is 'Truth'?

@DCPatriot
I'm going to set out to find every business possible that is owned by gays and attempt to purchase something they don't agree with.   Maybe also go down to the kosher deli and order a ham sandwhich, maybe the muslim resturant and order bacon with my service dog at my side.

Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2018, 09:55:03 AM »
@DCPatriot
I'm going to set out to find every business possible that is owned by gays and attempt to purchase something they don't agree with.   Maybe also go down to the kosher deli and order a ham sandwhich, maybe the muslim resturant and order bacon with my service dog at my side.

There you go - spreading Christian love wherever you roam.    *****rollingeyes*****
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

   - Duke Ellington, upon hearing of the death of Louis Armstrong

"Not forever.  Just for now"

    - Jay Farrar

Online jpsb

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2018, 09:56:14 AM »
Forcing an artist to create a work of art that violates his/her moral principles is not constitutional
nor is it good government. An artist is free to decide which commissions he/she will take and
which he/she will not take. I fine it very troubling that the big government conservatives (liberals)
would argue otherwise.




Online verga

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #45 on: January 02, 2018, 09:59:46 AM »
And he's spot on.  Just because one may claim religious justification for bigotry doesn't change its stripes, certainly not to those who disagree with that religion.     Live your own life as your conscience requires.   Just don't impose your moral edicts on others.
@Jazzhead Which is exactly what the gay couple is trying to do. Do you really not see the irony of your position.
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
�More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.�-Woody Allen
If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken him completely by surprise.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #46 on: January 02, 2018, 10:01:10 AM »
@Jazzhead
Your version of freedom - to do anything one wants as long as its approved behavior.

You are the most bigoted person on this forum.   You condemn Christians at every turn.

Christians aren't bigots - certainly not the ones I know.   

Laws against discrimination in the workplace,  and with respect to public accommodations, are simply a manifestation of the community's reasonable rules and expectations regarding interaction among the citizenry.   You are under no obligation to be part of the community and its rules.  If you define freedom as the liberty to be a bigoted bleep,  go right ahead.   But don't expect the community to structure itself to tolerate or accommodate you.     
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

   - Duke Ellington, upon hearing of the death of Louis Armstrong

"Not forever.  Just for now"

    - Jay Farrar

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #47 on: January 02, 2018, 10:03:29 AM »
Forcing an artist to create a work of art that violates his/her moral principles is not constitutional
nor is it good government. An artist is free to decide which commissions he/she will take and
which he/she will not take. I fine it very troubling that the big government conservatives (liberals)
would argue otherwise.

No one is forcing this baker/artist to make wedding cakes. 
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

   - Duke Ellington, upon hearing of the death of Louis Armstrong

"Not forever.  Just for now"

    - Jay Farrar

Online jpsb

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #48 on: January 02, 2018, 10:08:10 AM »
No one is forcing this baker/artist to make wedding cakes.

Gov most certainly is forcing the artist, in this case the baker, to create a work of art that
violates his conscience. That is unconstitutional and immoral.

Oceander

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Re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
« Reply #49 on: January 02, 2018, 10:08:33 AM »
Forcing an artist to create a work of art that violates his/her moral principles is not constitutional
nor is it good government. An artist is free to decide which commissions he/she will take and
which he/she will not take. I fine it very troubling that the big government conservatives (liberals)
would argue otherwise.





Commercial speech receives less protection than non-commercial speech, and no matter how “artistic” it may be, if it’s done for profit as part of a business, it’s commercial speech, at most. 


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