Poll

Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt? (New, Improved)

Classic smear machine in overdrive
19 (41.3%)
I'm withholding judgment
14 (30.4%)
The Patterns on Display bother Me, regardless of source
13 (28.3%)

Total Members Voted: 45

Voting closed: November 23, 2017, 03:14:20 am

Author Topic: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?  (Read 24245 times)

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Silver Pines

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #125 on: November 19, 2017, 05:14:33 pm »
She said she didn't "disbelieve" the accusation, which is politician-speak for she didn't believe it either.  As typical of politicians, it's a turn of phrase that allows everybody to take whatever meaning they desire.  That's why I usually don't believe politicians.

They usually don't speak in ways to enlighten, they speak in ways to allow everybody to confirm their own internal templates...what they already believe.  Is it a lie?  Is it a truth?  Who knows.  I don't, and that bit from the Governor doesn't move that ball either way down my field.  Makes me glad I'm not a voter in AL, who are the people who must ultimately decide.

I've given up arguing about it, because I don't think I'll ever know for sure.  This entire spectacle will likely be dropped by a disinterested Press as soon as it's no longer effective to whatever it is they are advocating.  This is the problem with the Press we have today, they don't report, they push people into doing what they want.

@Cyber Liberty

Even if you buy that it's only political-speak, and I don't, it's just as bad.  There are voters who aren't politically astute who will listen to her and go by her example.  They'll say, yeah, we have to support the GOP no matter what.  They'll rationalize Moore's behavior any way they can.  This is why I meant it when I said he's not only going to win, he'll run for president someday. 


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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #126 on: November 19, 2017, 05:26:22 pm »
@Cyber Liberty

Even if you buy that it's only political-speak, and I don't, it's just as bad.  There are voters who aren't politically astute who will listen to her and go by her example.  They'll say, yeah, we have to support the GOP no matter what.  They'll rationalize Moore's behavior any way they can.  This is why I meant it when I said he's not only going to win, he'll run for president someday.

I have no idea how this will play out, but I can guess we'll never have an answer that will satisfy all as to what happened many years ago.  It's like the Obama Birth Certificate thing.  Too many people stand to benefit by keeping the question alive.  If Moore loses, his head on a pike will serve as a warning to others.  If he wins, he'll always have the sword hanging if he doesn't do what he's told.  He won't be President, even a Royal Ted Kennedy never quite overcame that scandal.  Moore would never get much support outside of the five or so "deep south" states.

The danger I see is issues like this can be so polarizing people walk away from the wreckage forever doubting once fast friends.  I would not be surprised to learn that was actually the major purpose of this whole kerfuffle:  To drive a wedge between natural allies.
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Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #127 on: November 19, 2017, 06:11:49 pm »
When I referred to "quickly" it was because two people responded to my comment in a very short time, and it has nothing to do with the length of the thread.

Kind of like how quickly all of Moore's accusers chimed in in a very order?

Quote
But the point you bring up is part of the problem.  There are statistics out there apart from just personal experiences that ought to be considered.   I'm not taking sides on the issue because we, frankly, don't know the "facts" that are relevant to the case.   What I do know is that we can't assume Moore is guilty because there are too many facts still unknown, and we can't assume he is innocent because it's right before an election and it happened 40 years ago.

People on both sides are bringing feelings into the discussion because that's what we do here.   The problem for me is when people dismiss data because of their feelings, and won't look at what's actually there with any manner of objectivity.

I don't care about statistics.  Like you say, I don't know what the truth is in the Moore case(s), and so I would not be prepared to make a decision that could profoundly alter a man's life and career.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #128 on: November 19, 2017, 07:34:42 pm »
Kind of like how quickly all of Moore's accusers chimed in in a very order?

One thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other.   If there are two people who have been molested (and you're not the only ones) that comment on a single thread in a short time, it is a pervasive problem.

THAT was my point.  (It wasn't really that complicated).

Quote
I don't care about statistics.  Like you say, I don't know what the truth is in the Moore case(s), and so I would not be prepared to make a decision that could profoundly alter a man's life and career.

Well, if you don't care about statistics, then there is no need to present evidence, is there?

I've been saying all along there is no way to know the truth here............. yet.   But I wouldn't go so far as to try to silence the accusers if they're telling the truth, just because it's going to ruin a man's career.

It's a dangerous precedent.  (No, actually, it's been the way things have worked with men's assaults against women for a very long time.  Maybe it needs to end sometime?)
Character still matters.  It always matters.

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Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #129 on: November 19, 2017, 07:48:49 pm »

Well, if you don't care about statistics, then there is no need to present evidence, is there?

I've been saying all along there is no way to know the truth here............. yet.   But I wouldn't go so far as to try to silence the accusers if they're telling the truth, just because it's going to ruin a man's career.

It's a dangerous precedent.  (No, actually, it's been the way things have worked with men's assaults against women for a very long time.  Maybe it needs to end sometime?)

I have no clue how you jumped from me not caring about statistics to mean me not caring about evidence.  I also have never said, and I don't recall anyone else here saying, that the women should be silenced. 


Silver Pines

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #130 on: November 19, 2017, 07:51:33 pm »
The more you dig on this guy, the less stellar his character appears.


http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2017/10/tax_records_show_moore_is_a_ma.html


"and despite denials by Moore, the former Alabama Chief Justice had been receiving regular compensation from the nonprofit.

[P]rivately, Moore had arranged to receive a salary of $180,000 a year for part-time work at the Foundation for Moral Law, internal charity documents show," the Post reported. "He collected more than $1 million as president from 2007 to 2012, compensation that far surpassed what the group disclosed in its public tax filings most of those years."

And that's in addition to salary his wife, Kayla Moore, drew after she took over as the nonprofit's executive director, and also money paid to two of the Moores' children."

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #131 on: November 19, 2017, 07:58:00 pm »
The more you dig on this guy, the less stellar his character appears.


http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2017/10/tax_records_show_moore_is_a_ma.html


"and despite denials by Moore, the former Alabama Chief Justice had been receiving regular compensation from the nonprofit.

[P]rivately, Moore had arranged to receive a salary of $180,000 a year for part-time work at the Foundation for Moral Law, internal charity documents show," the Post reported. "He collected more than $1 million as president from 2007 to 2012, compensation that far surpassed what the group disclosed in its public tax filings most of those years."

And that's in addition to salary his wife, Kayla Moore, drew after she took over as the nonprofit's executive director, and also money paid to two of the Moores' children."

That's pretty interesting.  I wonder of that will become as widely known as the other stuff?  It should.
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #132 on: November 19, 2017, 08:00:14 pm »
I have no clue how you jumped from me not caring about statistics to mean me not caring about evidence.  I also have never said, and I don't recall anyone else here saying, that the women should be silenced.

Statistics are part of evidence.  Dismissing 40 year old memories because you don't have them while ignoring statistics is part of not caring about this particular evidence.

As for the wish for silence, I've read a whole lot of comments completely dismissing everythng these women have said as politically motivated without the slightest regard for the possibility that they are telling the truth.

That is tantamount to wanting them to shut up.

What we both want here is the truth.   And I don't think either of us wants either side silenced.

I would suggest that there are those who do, however........... at least until after the election.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #133 on: November 19, 2017, 08:10:24 pm »
Probably the worst tendency I'm seeing is this discussion is the assumption of others' motivations.  "You only believe (argument) because you are willing to do anything to win."

I don't find that particularly constructive.  Quite the opposite, actually.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #134 on: November 19, 2017, 08:12:19 pm »
Statistics are part of evidence.  Dismissing 40 year old memories because you don't have them while ignoring statistics is part of not caring about this particular evidence.

As for the wish for silence, I've read a whole lot of comments completely dismissing everythng these women have said as politically motivated without the slightest regard for the possibility that they are telling the truth.

That is tantamount to wanting them to shut up.

What we both want here is the truth.   And I don't think either of us wants either side silenced.

I would suggest that there are those who do, however........... at least until after the election.

You're going to have to be clearer on how statistics are evidence with regards to this case, because I am not agreeing with that at all right now.  In my mind statistics, in order to be anywhere near accurate, must include thousands of points of data and be appropriately classified and correlated.

Silver Pines

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #135 on: November 19, 2017, 08:15:45 pm »
That's pretty interesting.  I wonder of that will become as widely known as the other stuff?  It should.

@Cyber Liberty

Honestly?  I doubt it...IMO the rest will eclipse it.

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #136 on: November 19, 2017, 08:18:09 pm »
You're going to have to be clearer on how statistics are evidence with regards to this case, because I am not agreeing with that at all right now.  In my mind statistics, in order to be anywhere near accurate, must include thousands of points of data and be appropriately classified and correlated.

The implications of statistics is important, which is why entire College-level classes are devoted to it.  If you toss a penny and you get heads 49 times, what are the odds the 50th toss will be tails?  A cursory glance at the statics tells you it still 50-50, but a knowledge of the cumulative effects of the 49 tosses suggest placing a bet  against the heads call would be prudent.

I can't see anything to "statistically" suggest this Moore fellow is guilty of anything.  It's going to take some evidence to convince me of that.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Online Cyber Liberty

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #137 on: November 19, 2017, 08:19:30 pm »
@Cyber Liberty

Honestly?  I doubt it...IMO the rest will eclipse it.

I doubt it too, and I think that's reflects poorly on this election.  In an otherwise normal election this would be a major story today.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #138 on: November 19, 2017, 08:24:47 pm »
That's pretty interesting.  I wonder of that will become as widely known as the other stuff?  It should.

That story came out weeks before the abuse allegations and didn't get any legs then.

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #139 on: November 19, 2017, 08:27:37 pm »
That story came out weeks before the abuse allegations and didn't get any legs then.

Why?  Was there a problem with the evidence?  That's usually why hit stories like that fail.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #140 on: November 19, 2017, 08:27:59 pm »
The implications of statistics is important, which is why entire College-level classes are devoted to it.  If you toss a penny and you get heads 49 times, what are the odds the 50th toss will be tails?  A cursory glance at the statics tells you it still 50-50, but a knowledge of the cumulative effects of the 49 tosses suggest placing a bet  against the heads call would be prudent.

I can't see anything to "statistically" suggest this Moore fellow is guilty of anything.  It's going to take some evidence to convince me of that.

Those types of statistics would not help me determine whether any individual is guilty or not.  I think we all intuitively know that the chance of getting a 50th tails is pretty damn low, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #141 on: November 19, 2017, 08:29:10 pm »
Why?  Was there a problem with the evidence?  That's usually why hit stories like that fail.

As I recall what was being presented wasn't exactly the full story, but I would have to go back and find them to be certain.  At least one, but I  believe more, articles about it were posted here.

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #142 on: November 19, 2017, 09:01:44 pm »
Those types of statistics would not help me determine whether any individual is guilty or not.  I think we all intuitively know that the chance of getting a 50th tails is pretty damn low, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

Bingo.  That's the point.
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Online roamer_1

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #143 on: November 19, 2017, 09:42:09 pm »
Roamer, come on, stop talking like you live on a frontier planet.  You live in the United States with the rest of us. 

@CatherineofAragon
Obviously different from where you are (which surprises the hell out of me)... As I have opined elsewhere, it seems the defenders of Moore on his character tend to be Western men - And yes, it is still very much the frontier here. In town, I'd reckon, somewhat the same, but 5 miles from town, cops are far, far between, and mainly for bringing the body bags. Folks govern themselves here, necessarily. I am sure that is still so back in the hollers in Appalachia too, and in the Ozarks and swamps, but here, that is multiplied by vast distance.

Quote
I've stated repeatedly, over and over, that I don't assume guilt or innocence of either man or woman.  How is that you guys just keep missing me saying that, every time?  I wait for information to come in before I make my judgment.

Yet with nothing but hearsay, you are determined to destroy the man's character.

Quote
As for "feeeelings", like I said, I weigh the information and the facts,  Some of you, on the other hand, are operating as though that saint in a cowboy outfit couldn't have told a lie, much less molested someone.  Now that's based on feeling.

Yeah, and we have a pretty good amount, by now.

No, really you have nothing. You have uncorroborated gossip, extended by innuendo. The only hard evidence (and that only pointing toward Moore knowing the accuser, and lying about his ever being to the diner in question) you have is being reasonably challenged, and should be set aside until determined. Other than that, *bupkis*.

And on top of that, each new act in the saga specifically refutes statements by Moore, and adds nothing else, other than the refutation.

Moore says he doesn't know the gal, and says he never frequented the diner, and abracadabra! the yearbook shows up to specifically refute those statements. He says dating young girls is not something he did particularly, and abracadabra, another player steps forward , adding nothing to the conversation except the words that Moore supposedly 'does it all the time', with reference to dating 17 yo girls.

It is so blatantly constructed to discredit the man, so blatantly political in nature, that I can't see how anyone would lend it any sort of credence to begin with. But even if you do, there is nothing there to hang your hat on. Nothing. Just waggin tongues, and that very likely politically driven.

I could give a shit about his cowboy outfit and him being a saint. It is his record that speaks volumes. And that cannot be denied.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 09:43:37 pm by roamer_1 »

Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #144 on: November 19, 2017, 10:04:43 pm »
The implications of statistics is important, which is why entire College-level classes are devoted to it.  If you toss a penny and you get heads 49 times, what are the odds the 50th toss will be tails?  A cursory glance at the statics tells you it still 50-50, but a knowledge of the cumulative effects of the 49 tosses suggest placing a bet  against the heads call would be prudent.


I'll take that bet any day of the week.

The odds of heads are at least 50/50 (perfect coin).  However, the 49 in a row would suggest a strong possibility that the coin is NOT perfect, making heads the most likely outcome (with the most likely scenario being a two headed penny).
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Silver Pines

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #145 on: November 19, 2017, 10:08:24 pm »
@CatherineofAragon
Obviously different from where you are (which surprises the hell out of me)... As I have opined elsewhere, it seems the defenders of Moore on his character tend to be Western men - And yes, it is still very much the frontier here. In town, I'd reckon, somewhat the same, but 5 miles from town, cops are far, far between, and mainly for bringing the body bags. Folks govern themselves here, necessarily. I am sure that is still so back in the hollers in Appalachia too, and in the Ozarks and swamps, but here, that is multiplied by vast distance.

Yet with nothing but hearsay, you are determined to destroy the man's character.

No, really you have nothing. You have uncorroborated gossip, extended by innuendo. The only hard evidence (and that only pointing toward Moore knowing the accuser, and lying about his ever being to the diner in question) you have is being reasonably challenged, and should be set aside until determined. Other than that, *bupkis*.

And on top of that, each new act in the saga specifically refutes statements by Moore, and adds nothing else, other than the refutation.

Moore says he doesn't know the gal, and says he never frequented the diner, and abracadabra! the yearbook shows up to specifically refute those statements. He says dating young girls is not something he did particularly, and abracadabra, another player steps forward , adding nothing to the conversation except the words that Moore supposedly 'does it all the time', with reference to dating 17 yo girls.

It is so blatantly constructed to discredit the man, so blatantly political in nature, that I can't see how anyone would lend it any sort of credence to begin with. But even if you do, there is nothing there to hang your hat on. Nothing. Just waggin tongues, and that very likely politically driven.

I could give a shit about his cowboy outfit and him being a saint. It is his record that speaks volumes. And that cannot be denied.

@roamer_1

I don't know why you're surprised?  I never said I live in Appalachia.  I'm in central Virginia, in a rural farming community.  I'm one minute from a state highway and twelve from a fairly large (by my standards---80K) city.  It's redneck country, nevertheless.

We have a lot more than hearsay, but regardless, I don't think he has any character to be destroyed.  The more I read about him, the more convinced I am that he's a charlatan and a liar,  just like Trump.

I posted this on another thread:

http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2017/10/tax_records_show_moore_is_a_ma.html


"and despite denials by Moore, the former Alabama Chief Justice had been receiving regular compensation from the nonprofit.

[P]rivately, Moore had arranged to receive a salary of $180,000 a year for part-time work at the Foundation for Moral Law, internal charity documents show," the Post reported. "He collected more than $1 million as president from 2007 to 2012, compensation that far surpassed what the group disclosed in its public tax filings most of those years."

And that's in addition to salary his wife, Kayla Moore, drew after she took over as the nonprofit's executive director, and also money paid to two of the Moores' children."


EDIT:  I didn't post it on another thread, I posted it on this one.  I can't keep track of these damn things.  I'm going for a walk.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 10:09:36 pm by CatherineofAragon »

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #146 on: November 19, 2017, 10:13:25 pm »
@musiclady

Yes, it is.  But we saw many Republicans/conservatives subscribe to “win at any cost” last year, and I think we’re just sliding on down that hill.  When the governor of a state admits that she’ll vote for Moore even though she believes his accusers, it’s clear that the GOP is so darkly rotten that it needs to be burned down.
The governor's statements, quoted in an article here:http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/360946-alabama-governor-believes-moore-accusers-but-will-vote-for-moore-anyway
Quote
"I certainly have no reason to disbelieve any of them," she said. "The timing is a little curious. But at the same time, I have no reason to disbelieve them."

Ivey said earlier this week that she wouldn’t change her vote and would “hold [her] judgement until we get more of the facts” following allegations that Moore had a sexual encounter with a minor when he was in his 30s.

Those are carefully parsed words which hedge her women's vote for when she comes up for reelection against the possibility that the poo might stick to the wall, but leave her an out if it doesn't.

Hardly an overwhelming support of the allegations, more like weasel words--a long way from saying 'I think he's guilty but I'm going to vote for him anyway'.

@CatherineofAragon I'll ping you when I reply to your posts if you will link the sources of your information the first time you post it. Fair enough?
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Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #147 on: November 19, 2017, 10:17:35 pm »
Bingo.  That's the point.

Oh good. Sometimes the point flies right over my silly head.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #148 on: November 19, 2017, 10:26:17 pm »
You're going to have to be clearer on how statistics are evidence with regards to this case, because I am not agreeing with that at all right now.  In my mind statistics, in order to be anywhere near accurate, must include thousands of points of data and be appropriately classified and correlated.

I'm going to cede your point on the stats/evidence argument since I'm not bright enough to explain my position clearly.  :dx1:

I think overall, we are in agreement here, and I never like to debate people with whom I agree.  :beer:
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Offline skeeter

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #149 on: November 19, 2017, 10:37:13 pm »

It is so blatantly constructed to discredit the man, so blatantly political in nature, that I can't see how anyone would lend it any sort of credence to begin with. But even if you do, there is nothing there to hang your hat on. Nothing. Just waggin tongues, and that very likely politically driven.

I could give a shit about his cowboy outfit and him being a saint. It is his record that speaks volumes. And that cannot be denied.

Very well said. Thanks.