Poll

Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt? (New, Improved)

Classic smear machine in overdrive
19 (41.3%)
I'm withholding judgment
14 (30.4%)
The Patterns on Display bother Me, regardless of source
13 (28.3%)

Total Members Voted: 45

Voting closed: November 23, 2017, 03:14:20 am

Author Topic: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?  (Read 24310 times)

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Offline musiclady

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #100 on: November 19, 2017, 02:50:03 pm »
BS, I also was a victim of sexual abuse, or attempted anyway. Had a same sex band director that tried to get me to do some things. Yeah, I remember his proposition line, I remember turning him down, but I couldn't tell you what month it was to save my life now.

Honestly I couldn't even tell you the season it occurred. But then again, like I said my memory just ain't what it used to be.

@CatherineofAragon

You are the exception to the rule,  THEN.

A person in her fifties is not likely to have forgotten abuse that occurred in her teens.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #101 on: November 19, 2017, 02:56:24 pm »
@musiclady

It’s denial based on tribalism.  And yes, I agree with you.

Bigun has me blocked, but the question he raised in his post has been answered repeatedly.  The women never went looking to tell their stories—-not during that long 40 years.  The Post went looking for them—-which has nothing to do with the veracity, or not, of the charges.

At least one of the women is a Republican who voted for Trump.  So much for the conspiracy theory.

The loyalty to Moore is remarkable. 

To be furious with someone on a website whom you have seen to be an honorable person over months and months because of a politician with whom you have a reasonable but different opinion is odd at best... :shrug:

@CatherineofAragon
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Silver Pines

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #102 on: November 19, 2017, 03:06:58 pm »
The loyalty to Moore is remarkable. 

To be furious with someone on a website whom you have seen to be an honorable person over months and months because of a politician with whom you have a reasonable but different opinion is odd at best... :shrug:

@CatherineofAragon

@musiclady

Yes, it is.  But we saw many Republicans/conservatives subscribe to “win at any cost” last year, and I think we’re just sliding on down that hill.  When the governor of a state admits that she’ll vote for Moore even though she believes his accusers, it’s clear that the GOP is so darkly rotten that it needs to be burned down.


Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #103 on: November 19, 2017, 03:07:32 pm »
You are the exception to the rule,  THEN.

A person in her fifties is not likely to have forgotten abuse that occurred in her teens.

I'm another exception.  I had a drunk goober try to force me to kiss him and then put me in a sort of head lock that was just tight enough for me me not to be able to get out of and I don't remember what I was wearing or even my exact age at the time.

Online Bigun

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #104 on: November 19, 2017, 03:10:55 pm »
The loyalty to Moore is remarkable. 

To be furious with someone on a website whom you have seen to be an honorable person over months and months because of a politician with whom you have a reasonable but different opinion is odd at best... :shrug:

@CatherineofAragon

I personally have no problem with anyone's opinions.  It's when they start conflating them with facts that I get bothered.
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"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Online Cyber Liberty

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #105 on: November 19, 2017, 03:13:07 pm »
I'm another exception.  I had a drunk goober try to force me to kiss him and then put me in a sort of head lock that was just tight enough for me me not to be able to get out of and I don't remember what I was wearing or even my exact age at the time.

I've just gotten tired of the entire argument, and find some of the tactics now being employed somewhat unseemly.  I'm just going to go silent about it and wait to see what happens, what the people charged with deciding do.  All the ills inherent in life area not going to be solved here.   :shrug:
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #106 on: November 19, 2017, 03:24:28 pm »
I've just gotten tired of the entire argument, and find some of the tactics now being employed somewhat unseemly.  I'm just going to go silent about it and wait to see what happens, what the people charged with deciding do.  All the ills inherent in life area not going to be solved here.   :shrug:

I'd much rather get back to discussing what a slug Trump is. ;P

Offline musiclady

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #107 on: November 19, 2017, 03:25:53 pm »
I'm another exception.  I had a drunk goober try to force me to kiss him and then put me in a sort of head lock that was just tight enough for me me not to be able to get out of and I don't remember what I was wearing or even my exact age at the time.

The problem is with assuming that others' experiences are the same as your own and assuming that the majority experience is wrong.

I find it interesting that two victims of assault showed up quickly on this thread. Perhaps it's because more of this garbage occurs than a few of the menfolk around here care to admit and there really isn't a reason to assume a politician hasn't done anything wrong....
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #108 on: November 19, 2017, 03:27:00 pm »
I personally have no problem with anyone's opinions.  It's when they start conflating them with facts that I get bothered.

Which perhaps you, yourself have done??  :shrug:
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline andy58-in-nh

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #109 on: November 19, 2017, 03:31:05 pm »
 Previously, I avoided comment about Judge Moore in this space and elsewhere because I did not know what, or who to believe. 

The pattern of behavior now clearly exhibited by Moore is troubling, to say the least. His lawyerly denials ring oddly hollow. But the sudden appearance of purported victims in the company of such manipulative self-promoters as Gloria Allred raises its own set of reasonable doubts.

There is also the troubling matter of tribal loyalties in public life, leading many to reflexively defend or denounce a person accused of abusive behavior, not on the basis of known facts, but upon one's political fealty. 

I do not know, nor in truth does anyone but Judge Moore and his accusers, know for certain what happened or did not happen between them. But any honest appraisal must depend first on what is factually known, then upon what can be observed by behavior, and finally, by reference to the lessons imparted by one's own knowledge and experience. 

Speaking only for myself, I have observed behavior on the part of Moore that raises my suspicions, as amplified by personal experiences with predators and those of women very, very close to me who have been assaulted by them.   

Where there is smoke, there is often - but not always - fire. And what might be claimed by some to be a four-alarm blaze might simply be a kitchen grease fire. Once again, I don't know what is the case here, but I smell something for certain, and it is not the odor of pure innocence.   

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Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #110 on: November 19, 2017, 03:38:08 pm »
The problem is with assuming that others' experiences are the same as your own and assuming that the majority experience is wrong.

I find it interesting that two victims of assault showed up quickly on this thread. Perhaps it's because more of this garbage occurs than a few of the menfolk around here care to admit and there really isn't a reason to assume a politician hasn't done anything wrong....

If you're counting me as one of the two; first off, I am not a victim, secondly this thread had been ongoing for four freaking days and the overall issue for over a week so that doesn't seem very quick to me. 

As I have been reading through the comments, it seems to me there's some assuming going on on both sides of the issue.  We all use our own life experiences to formulate opinions on many issues.


Online corbe

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #111 on: November 19, 2017, 03:38:23 pm »
I'd much rather get back to discussing what a slug Trump is. ;P

   Me Too, that affects all of us on a daily basis.
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #112 on: November 19, 2017, 03:39:18 pm »
@musiclady

Yes, it is.  But we saw many Republicans/conservatives subscribe to “win at any cost” last year, and I think we’re just sliding on down that hill.  When the governor of a state admits that she’ll vote for Moore even though she believes his accusers, it’s clear that the GOP is so darkly rotten that it needs to be burned down.

I agree that the trend is very bad.

And the trend is the reason I can no longer call myself a Republican.

The GOP has always been flawed, but they have always (at least publicly) stood strong for morality.

That is clearly no longer the case.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #113 on: November 19, 2017, 03:40:10 pm »
   Me Too, that affects all of us on a daily basis.

In a very real way, so does this.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #114 on: November 19, 2017, 03:55:52 pm »
If you're counting me as one of the two; first off, I am not a victim, secondly this thread had been ongoing for four freaking days and the overall issue for over a week so that doesn't seem very quick to me. 

As I have been reading through the comments, it seems to me there's some assuming going on on both sides of the issue.  We all use our own life experiences to formulate opinions on many issues.

When I referred to "quickly" it was because two people responded to my comment in a very short time, and it has nothing to do with the length of the thread.

But the point you bring up is part of the problem.  There are statistics out there apart from just personal experiences that ought to be considered.   I'm not taking sides on the issue because we, frankly, don't know the "facts" that are relevant to the case.   What I do know is that we can't assume Moore is guilty because there are too many facts still unknown, and we can't assume he is innocent because it's right before an election and it happened 40 years ago.

People on both sides are bringing feelings into the discussion because that's what we do here.   The problem for me is when people dismiss data because of their feelings, and won't look at what's actually there with any manner of objectivity.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Online Cyber Liberty

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #115 on: November 19, 2017, 03:57:05 pm »
I'd much rather get back to discussing what a slug Trump is. ;P

Life was easier then.  :nometalk:
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Silver Pines

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #116 on: November 19, 2017, 04:00:47 pm »
I agree that the trend is very bad.

And the trend is the reason I can no longer call myself a Republican.

The GOP has always been flawed, but they have always (at least publicly) stood strong for morality.

That is clearly no longer the case.

@musiclady

At this point, I pretty much agree with Matt Walsh when he recently said that even conservatism has ceased to mean anything.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #117 on: November 19, 2017, 04:17:11 pm »
@musiclady

At this point, I pretty much agree with Matt Walsh when he recently said that even conservatism has ceased to mean anything.

Clearly it doesn't mean anything.

It's been eroding for a long time, but I agree that the term is now meaningless.  Populist immorality is not conservative, no matter how much screaming there is about it claiming it is.

@CatherineofAragon
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 04:17:45 pm by musiclady »
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Online Cyber Liberty

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #118 on: November 19, 2017, 04:29:07 pm »
Look around at out own little microcosm of the world here.  We have far leftists coming here and insisting what conservatives and Christians should believe, and these are neither Christian nor conservative values. 

Christians are now to accept and celebrate all manners of aberrant behavior because "tolerance."  Conservatives are now being instructed that gun control and universal health care are now conservative values.

And any politician promising to check these trends is to be destroyed at any cost necessary, while the press applauds.  It's not a pleasant time to be either Christian or conservative.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 04:29:35 pm by Cyber Liberty »
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Silver Pines

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #119 on: November 19, 2017, 04:43:54 pm »
Look around at out own little microcosm of the world here.  We have far leftists coming here and insisting what conservatives and Christians should believe, and these are neither Christian nor conservative values. 

Christians are now to accept and celebrate all manners of aberrant behavior because "tolerance."  Conservatives are now being instructed that gun control and universal health care are now conservative values.

And any politician promising to check these trends is to be destroyed at any cost necessary, while the press applauds.  It's not a pleasant time to be either Christian or conservative.

@Cyber Liberty

Including child molestation, per the Alabama governor.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 04:44:18 pm by CatherineofAragon »

Offline TomSea

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #120 on: November 19, 2017, 04:46:33 pm »




For the record, Reagan was accused.

For the record, I will honor the most pro-life administration ever, as the article was posted in the politics section.

Hey, but if an invasion happens and Christians who have been in the Middle East for 2000 years are now persecuted and may even be eradicated, we can hail that 'morality'.

Don't talk to us about morality.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #121 on: November 19, 2017, 04:50:00 pm »


Don't talk to us about morality.

OK.  We won't, Tom, if you don't want us to.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Online Cyber Liberty

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #122 on: November 19, 2017, 04:53:18 pm »
@Cyber Liberty

Including child molestation, per the Alabama governor.

She said she didn't "disbelieve" the accusation, which is politician-speak for she didn't believe it either.  As typical of politicians, it's a turn of phrase that allows everybody to take whatever meaning they desire.  That's why I usually don't believe politicians.

They usually don't speak in ways to enlighten, they speak in ways to allow everybody to confirm their own internal templates...what they already believe.  Is it a lie?  Is it a truth?  Who knows.  I don't, and that bit from the Governor doesn't move that ball either way down my field.  Makes me glad I'm not a voter in AL, who are the people who must ultimately decide.

I've given up arguing about it, because I don't think I'll ever know for sure.  This entire spectacle will likely be dropped by a disinterested Press as soon as it's no longer effective to whatever it is they are advocating.  This is the problem with the Press we have today, they don't report, they push people into doing what they want.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline TomSea

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #123 on: November 19, 2017, 04:55:51 pm »
Reagan is often called a populist, Reagan was also accused.  End of.

Offline TomSea

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Re: Should Judge Moore be given the benefit of the doubt?
« Reply #124 on: November 19, 2017, 04:58:55 pm »
Even with people bringing up cases such as Granpa Ned marrying your grandmother at 16 years old, Moore not denying he might have dated teenagers is very questionable to me. And the whole Mall deal, not debunked from what I've seen, bottomline, no records exist, seem to have everyone saying he played the field, not that he was looking for a spouse.