Author Topic: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas  (Read 36250 times)

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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #725 on: November 09, 2017, 10:02:14 pm »
That seems like a really good decision.   There are so few people left in that congregation that were not killed or wounded.  It would be awful for the survivors to see the pews empty, and remember the carnage.

I am still so deeply troubled by this.  I'm not sure any mass murder has effected me so deeply as this one.

I don't know.  It wasn't the first church shooting in recent years....maybe it was the senselessness of it.
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #726 on: November 09, 2017, 10:07:26 pm »
Insurance is a time-honored and traditional way to allocate and mitigate risk.

Mitigating risk is not an issue.  Nor would the shooter in this case give a damn about risk.

As for the law-abiding side, the additional cost of insurance may have dissuaded the neighbor from owning a gun, which would have resulted in every person in that church dying that day.

Besides, don't you think any insurance mandate should be left up to each State to decide?
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Offline austingirl

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #727 on: November 09, 2017, 10:08:13 pm »
That seems like a really good decision.   There are so few people left in that congregation that were not killed or wounded.  It would be awful for the survivors to see the pews empty, and remember the carnage.

I am still so deeply troubled by this.  I'm not sure any mass murder has effected me so deeply as this one.

I have mixed feeling about demolishing the church. What will be done with the site?

I agree - this massacre has affected me very deeply as well.
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #728 on: November 09, 2017, 10:11:01 pm »
The whole insurance business is wind in sails, a trick from the gun grabbers to make us think they're not really trying to grab them.  They are.  Anybody who says registration and insurance is a good idea is a poorly disguised gun grabber, protests to the contrary.

This whole 'insurance' angle was brought up to address a problem that doesn't even exist.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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Offline Axeslinger

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #729 on: November 09, 2017, 10:14:41 pm »
You don't have the freedom to be irresponsible, bub.  There is nothing in the Constitution that gives you the right to expose others to deadly risks without compensation.   

Ok bub!  The Second Amendment exactly gives me that right, you freaking statist tool:

 The right of the people to keep AND BEAR arms shall NOT BE INFRINGED

Just. Stop. Now!  Ain’t nobody here buying your BS.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 10:15:35 pm by Axeslinger »
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #730 on: November 09, 2017, 10:16:40 pm »
Mitigating risk is not an issue.  Nor would the shooter in this case give a damn about risk.

As for the law-abiding side, the additional cost of insurance may have dissuaded the neighbor from owning a gun, which would have resulted in every person in that church dying that day.

Besides, don't you think any insurance mandate should be left up to each State to decide?

This insurance idea was cooked up by gun-grabbers who figured out the people weren't going to go along quietly with registration.  I have a true-blue grabber I know from Bookface and he switched to this tactic as smoothly as a train switching tracks.  One day he was insisting on confiscation, another day it was registration, and now his hobby horse is insurance.  "Why not make it like a car?  Seems common-sense!" he says, presumably with a blank look on his face.

Look how deep in the weeds this has gotten this conversation.  The insurance suggestion should have been laughed down the same page it came up.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #731 on: November 09, 2017, 10:16:53 pm »
That seems like a really good decision.   There are so few people left in that congregation that were not killed or wounded.  It would be awful for the survivors to see the pews empty, and remember the carnage.

I am still so deeply troubled by this.  I'm not sure any mass murder has effected me so deeply as this one.

I agree, ML.   This massacre was truly motivated by sadism and hate.   Spraying bullets from a tall building at a faceless crowd is bad,  but walking the through the aisles at a house of worship and methodically shooting the wounded at point blank range is disturbing because it so satanic.   

It is hard to consider this massacre without contemplating that mankind is truly unique in being capable of such utter depravity and cruelty.   Did God make a mistake giving us this world?   It may have been this man's explicit purpose to tempt us to lose faith.  It's not easy,  but I'm not going to give him the motherflippin' satisfaction.   
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 10:17:16 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #732 on: November 09, 2017, 10:17:39 pm »
This whole 'insurance' angle was brought up to address a problem that doesn't even exist.

And now we know why.  Cooked up by a couple leftist newspaper morons.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline austingirl

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #733 on: November 09, 2017, 10:21:59 pm »
FBI pulling out of investigation and leaving the job to Texas. Buh-bye

 http://www.kens5.com/news/local/fbi-leaving-sutherland-springs-handing-case-to-local-authorities/490589590
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Offline To-Whose-Benefit?

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #734 on: November 09, 2017, 10:22:05 pm »
What more proof do we need to state the fact that Jazzhead is an enemy to absolutely every single thing we are beholden and are governed by in terms of principles?

The guy is a DU troll, I'm convinced.

@INVAR

Part 2;

Eric Holder: Inability To Pass Gun Control My 'Single Failure'
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/02/08/eric-holder-inability-to-pass-gun-control-my-single-failure/

Then the Californiacrats put him on the payroll to Launder Tax Money to him.

California Hires Eric holder To Lead Legal Fight Against Trump
http://www.breitbart.com/california/2017/01/04/california-hires-eric-holder-lead-legal-fight-trump/

Hiring Eric Holder To Fight Donald Trump Violates State Constitution, California Republican Says
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jan/12/holder-hire-violates-calif-constitution-lawmaker/

Add in a Koskinen and Lerner imbroglio for seasoning:

Suit Alleges IRS Improperly Seized 60 Million Personal Medical records
https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottgottlieb/2013/05/15/the-irs-raids-60-million-personal-medical-records/#41d9fe8b1b72

"According to a story by Courthousenews.com, an unnamed healthcare provider in California is suing the IRS and 15 unnamed agents, alleging that they improperly seized some 60 million medical records of 10 million Americans, including medical records of all California state judges on March 11, 2011."


The suit was dismissed, but the point is it Was brought.

They're down, but they're not out, not by a long shot.

Jazzhead has had his trolling handed back to him by just about everyone here over what, 29/30 pages so far?

Lot of stick to-it-iveness for your garden variety DU type.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 10:25:19 pm by To-Whose-Benefit? »
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #735 on: November 09, 2017, 10:25:02 pm »
FBI pulling out of investigation and leaving the job to Texas. Buh-bye

 http://www.kens5.com/news/local/fbi-leaving-sutherland-springs-handing-case-to-local-authorities/490589590

Why was the FBI involved in the first place?
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #736 on: November 09, 2017, 10:26:17 pm »
Ok bub!  The Second Amendment exactly gives me that right, you freaking statist tool:

 The right of the people to keep AND BEAR arms shall NOT BE INFRINGED

Just. Stop. Now!  Ain’t nobody here buying your BS.

I'll state my opinion the same as you do, little man.   I'm no gun-grabber, but I'm not going to stick my head in the sand at our epidemic of gun violence, either. 

 The use of insurance is a time-honored and traditional way to allocate and mitigate risk.   I offered my proposal for purposes of discussion, and have entered into this conversation in good faith.   The Second Amendment - by its plain language - does not support your extreme and selfish position.  It has been held by Justice Scalia himself to be subject to reasonable regulation.   The gun-grabbers don't want what's reasonable,  but I do.   I only support regulation that is efficacious and does not unduly burden the right to self-defense cited by Justice Scalia.   
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Offline To-Whose-Benefit?

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #737 on: November 09, 2017, 10:26:41 pm »
Why was the FBI involved in the first place?

Ought to be obvious.

It's still the Obama machine.

Looking for a Right Wing MAGA connection.
My 'Viking Hunter' High Adventure Alternate History Series is FREE, ALL 3 volumes, at most ebook retailers including Ibooks, Barnes and Noble, Kobo, and more.

In Vol 2 the weapons come out in a winner take all war on two fronts.

Vol 3 opens with the rigged murder trial of the villain in a Viking Court under Viking law to set the stage for the hero's own murder trial.

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Offline austingirl

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #738 on: November 09, 2017, 10:31:05 pm »
Why was the FBI involved in the first place?
@Cyber Liberty
Wilson County sheriff asked for help from other, unspecified, law enforcement. Of course, he would get the help of DPS and the Texas Rangers. Not sure he requested the FBI or they just inserted themselves- article didn't say.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 10:31:34 pm by austingirl »
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Offline SZonian

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #739 on: November 09, 2017, 10:32:07 pm »
I'll state my opinion the same as you do, little man.   I'm no gun-grabber, but I'm not going to stick my head in the sand at our epidemic of gun violence, either. 

 The use of insurance is a time-honored and traditional way to allocate and mitigate risk.   I offered my proposal for purposes of discussion, and have entered into this conversation in good faith.   The Second Amendment - by its plain language - does not support your extreme and selfish position.  It has been held by Justice Scalia himself to be subject to reasonable regulation.   The gun-grabbers don't want what's reasonable,  but I do.   I only support regulation that is efficacious and does not unduly burden the right to self-defense cited by Justice Scalia.   
Who gets to define what "reasonable regulation" is? 

"Common sense" ain't so common anymore, thus, 2nd Amendment supporters should rightfully eschew any discussion with those words included. 

I am equally suspicious/dismissive of the use of the word "reasonable" in this context.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #740 on: November 09, 2017, 10:32:25 pm »
I'll state my opinion the same as you do, little man.   I'm no gun-grabber, but I'm not going to stick my head in the sand at our epidemic of gun violence, either. 

 The use of insurance is a time-honored and traditional way to allocate and mitigate risk.   I offered my proposal for purposes of discussion, and have entered into this conversation in good faith.   The Second Amendment - by its plain language - does not support your extreme and selfish position.  It has been held by Justice Scalia himself to be subject to reasonable regulation.   The gun-grabbers don't want what's reasonable,  but I do.   I only support regulation that is efficacious and does not unduly burden the right to self-defense cited by Justice Scalia.   

You did not enter this conversation in "good faith."  First, you pretended like you really thought we were correct about the right to keep and bear arms.  Then, you bring up this cooked up insurance scheme, proving your attitude and desire to register then grab guns has not diminished in the least, you're just test driving a new tactic.  This is, what, the fourth or fifth stab you've taken at it?

You failed.  Again.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 10:37:48 pm by Cyber Liberty »
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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #741 on: November 09, 2017, 10:33:47 pm »
I'll state my opinion the same as you do, little man.   I'm no gun-grabber, but I'm not going to stick my head in the sand at our epidemic of gun violence, either. 
 

   EPIDEMIC!!!!
 888ohnoes


Quote
I only support regulation that is efficacious and does not unduly burden the right to self-defense cited by Justice Scalia.   

The hell you say. What about those who can't afford insurance.. especially for the 4 or 5 guns it takes to live out here... You make them criminal, or deny them self defense and even subsistence.

Offline austingirl

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #742 on: November 09, 2017, 10:34:03 pm »
epidemic of gun violence. 

Darn it, why are those guns going around shooting?
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #743 on: November 09, 2017, 10:34:57 pm »
Who gets to define what "reasonable regulation" is? 

"Common sense" ain't so common anymore, thus, 2nd Amendment supporters should rightfully eschew any discussion with those words included. 

I am equally suspicious/dismissive of the use of the word "reasonable" in this context.

I might accept the term "reasonable," but not from somebody I've seen twist logic into every pretzel imaginable to come out with the same desired end result.
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Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #744 on: November 09, 2017, 10:35:26 pm »
Insurance is a time-honored and traditional way to allocate and mitigate risk.
And as anyone who has insurance knows, it's also a time-honored and traditional way for insurance companies to control policy holders' behavior. That would be infringement, and thus unconstitutional.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #745 on: November 09, 2017, 10:36:45 pm »
Darn it, why are those guns going around shooting?

Sounds like the guns have the Tingle for a Pringle....
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #746 on: November 09, 2017, 10:39:26 pm »
You did not enter this conversation in "good faith."  First, you pretended like you really thought we were right about the right to keep and bear arms.  Then, you bring up this cooked up insurance scheme, proving your attitude and desire to register then grab guns has not diminished in the least, you're just test driving a new tactic.  This is, what, the fourth or fifth stab you've taken at it?

You failed.  Again.

Oh, bullshit.  Indeed,  your dishonesty is why I cannot respect you - ascribing to me motivations you've conjured up out of thin air is textbook bad faith. 

 You're simply lying when you accuse me of wanting to "grab guns".   I want no such thing.  I propose a regime of registration and insurance for exactly the purpose I stated - to allocate and mitigate risk.   The Constitution does not give anyone the right to expose others to deadly risk without compensation.   
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 10:42:17 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline SZonian

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #747 on: November 09, 2017, 10:40:45 pm »
I might accept the term "reasonable," but not from somebody I've seen twist logic into every pretzel imaginable to come out with the same desired end result.
There are already over 20k firearm laws on the books across this country.  Most, if not all, are intended to prevent the events of the past couple of months and not one has succeeded in preventing them.  I think there's more than enough "reasonable regulations" on the books already.

And it stands to reason that the same people ('RATS) using the words "common sense regulation" would be the ones defining "reasonable regulation".
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #748 on: November 09, 2017, 10:46:19 pm »
The correct response is to both,  within the confines, of course, of the Second Amendment.   Even car owners with the safest driving records still have to maintain insurance.   

As to whether what I propose "creates more problems",  that's the purpose of having discussions like this.  You've already gotten me to think about the virtues of fault-based vs. no-fault insurance.  Contrary to what the usual suspects say, I do not have any hidden agenda to confiscate guns or to make it harder for the law-abiding to defend themselves or enjoy their hobbies.   But gun violence is an epidemic.  Stating flatly that registration and insurance can't address the problems that exist is unhelpful and myopic.  Insurance is a time-honored and traditional way to allocate and mitigate risk.


No, the correct Constitutional response is to prosecute those criminal actors which survive and leave everyone else out of it. The Constitution does not allow for regulating the right to own a firearm, nor does it allow for anyone to lose "life, liberty or property" without due process of law, which includes being accused, tried and convicted of a crime. Writing new laws to make people guilty of something unnecessary which will not stop anyone from murdering someone in order to infringe their rights is liable to get someone unnecessarily killed, sooner or later, over something which should not have ever been an issue. In the meantime, though, the Constitution does allow for the arrest, trial, and prosecution of those who are out there performing acts of murder and violence, and those people can and do lose some of their Liberty as a result of either their actions or those of the court.

Passing another law when the Government cannot and will not enforce the very laws which it should be going by in order to stop lawbreakers which will only be created by the new law, not stopped by it, is a non-starter. I will crawl over broken glass naked in a blizzard to get to the polls to vote against anyone who votes for such nonsense, and will devote my resources to their electoral defeat.   

My rifle IS my insurance from statist jerkoffs who think they can regulate it out of my hands.
"From my cold dead fingers" means something.

I'll be damned if I am going to have my rights, especially one which SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED nibbled away at. Stuff the insurance. I will own a rifle as long as I breathe. Take your insurance scheme and shove it. You would have honest people pay for the crimes of others. No effing way. End of discussion.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #749 on: November 09, 2017, 10:46:50 pm »
Who gets to define what "reasonable regulation" is? 


Ultimately, the courts.  To me, reasonable regulation must satisfy three requirements - it must be efficacious, it must achieve its purpose in the least obtrusive means possible, and it must be Constitutional (meaning in this context that it does not render the RKBA for personal defense a practical fiction, like the ban on handguns that was overturned in Heller). 

I support the reasoning and result in Heller.  I am no gun-grabber.     
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 10:47:27 pm by Jazzhead »
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