Author Topic: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services  (Read 21575 times)

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Online Bigun

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2017, 09:10:01 pm »
Is not the essence of the debate when the fetus becomes a child? @thackney   As of now, that moment is defined as at viability outside the womb.

By law yes. In reality no!
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2017, 09:12:38 pm »
I'm not hiding, period @IsailedawayfromFR   If you want to know how the law is interpreted and applied, ask a doctor.
No, it is not how the law is interpreted.  Don't need to interpret the plain English language.  I can read  It says 20 weeks. 

It is how 20 weeks is declared as the viable vs non-viable.  Sucking out the brains of a viable human being vs just a piece of tissue seems to me to be something quite important to anybody with any morality, doesn't it?
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #52 on: October 15, 2017, 09:16:41 pm »
Is not the essence of the debate when the fetus becomes a child? @thackney   As of now, that moment is defined as at viability outside the womb.
There you go again.  Viability outside the womb.  Is there viability inside the womb?  If so, how does one determine that? Remember, life begins at conception as per @Jazzhead .
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Offline thackney

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #53 on: October 15, 2017, 09:21:47 pm »
Is not the essence of the debate when the fetus becomes a child? @thackney   As of now, that moment is defined as at viability outside the womb.

I was responding to:

"You're not the boss of her, and neither is the doggone government."

My point was when it comes to protecting another life, that wasn't a true statement.
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Offline Suppressed

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #54 on: October 15, 2017, 09:33:38 pm »
Remember, life begins at conception as per @Jazzhead .
@IsailedawayfromFR

IIRC, @Jazzhead said implantation, not conception.
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Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #55 on: October 15, 2017, 09:40:18 pm »
There you go again.  Viability outside the womb.  Is there viability inside the womb?  If so, how does one determine that? Remember, life begins at conception as per @Jazzhead .

No one is debating the viability of a fetus inside the womb @IsailedawayfromFR   The discussion I was participating in is about abortion and when abortion falls outside the definition of legal.  The legality or illegality of the procedure is based on the viability of the fetus outside the womb.  And, for the last time ... if you want to know how viability is determined prior to an abortion, ask a doctor. 

We have yet to see how the administration's definition of life beginning at conception changes established abortion "protocol".  It may change it profoundly, or not at all since the fundamental question in abortion is not if the fetus is life, but when the life becomes viable outside the womb.

You appear to be very passionate about this issue.  While working to change the current law, might I suggest some of your passionate energy be spent expanding "choice" to include other options and services--such as financial and emotional support for the expectant mother and easier avenues for adoption?

This is all I have to say on this.

Thanks.


Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #56 on: October 15, 2017, 09:41:13 pm »
I was responding to:

"You're not the boss of her, and neither is the doggone government."

My point was when it comes to protecting another life, that wasn't a true statement.

Got it.  Thanks! 

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #58 on: October 15, 2017, 10:38:01 pm »
No one is debating the viability of a fetus inside the womb @IsailedawayfromFR   The discussion I was participating in is about abortion and when abortion falls outside the definition of legal.  The legality or illegality of the procedure is based on the viability of the fetus outside the womb.  And, for the last time ... if you want to know how viability is determined prior to an abortion, ask a doctor. 

We have yet to see how the administration's definition of life beginning at conception changes established abortion "protocol".  It may change it profoundly, or not at all since the fundamental question in abortion is not if the fetus is life, but when the life becomes viable outside the womb.

You appear to be very passionate about this issue.  While working to change the current law, might I suggest some of your passionate energy be spent expanding "choice" to include other options and services--such as financial and emotional support for the expectant mother and easier avenues for adoption?

This is all I have to say on this.

Thanks.
I thought we were talking about life, which begins at conception, and whether murder is committed when it is terminated due to unnatural causes.

I know you think it is just tissue, but most people think otherwise.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 10:38:45 pm by IsailedawayfromFR »
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #59 on: October 15, 2017, 11:15:47 pm »
I thought we were talking about life, which begins at conception, and whether murder is committed when it is terminated due to unnatural causes.

I know you think it is just tissue, but most people think otherwise.

I have never, ever heard a woman exclaim: "I'm having a fetus!"  **nononono*

The truth of it is known, inherently, by any and every woman.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #60 on: October 16, 2017, 12:06:17 pm »
I have never, ever heard a woman exclaim: "I'm having a fetus!"  **nononono*

The truth of it is known, inherently, by any and every woman.

The abortion issue should be about creating the conditions for abortion to be unnecessary, or as rare as possible.   Instead, it has become an existential struggle of women seeking to protect their right to self-determination against encroachment by the state in the name of religion. 

Stated simply, women cannot gain full equality with men if the state forces them to reproduce.   That is a choice that can only be made by women themselves.   For that reason,  pro-lifers cannot win this battle - and if they truly want to save lives, the paradigm must shift from coercion to persuasion. 
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Offline mountaineer

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #61 on: October 16, 2017, 12:21:15 pm »
Stated simply, women cannot gain full equality with men if the state forces them to reproduce.   That is a choice that can only be made by women themselves.   
If it were the state impregnating them, you might have an argument.
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Offline verga

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #62 on: October 16, 2017, 01:09:37 pm »
I am of no importance.  I maintain simply that a woman has dominion over the decision to reproduce.  Not the state.  Not until quickening or, perhaps, the point where pain can be felt.
@Jazzhead If a woman does not wish to reproduce than she should either not engage in intercourse, or have herself sterilized. Once conception has occurred the only decision is what to name the child.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #63 on: October 16, 2017, 01:40:44 pm »
@Jazzhead If a woman does not wish to reproduce than she should either not engage in intercourse, or have herself sterilized. Once conception has occurred the only decision is what to name the child.

That may well be your position as a father vis a vis your daughter.  It is not a position that may be taken as a coercive matter by the state.  Women are not chattel.  The government may not deny a woman's fundamental liberty to decide FOR HERSELF whether to carry a non-viable fetus to term.

Don't like that?  Then utilize your powers of persuasion.   (I'd suggest a bit more empathy and compassion, but, hey, if you think sexist bullying helps, then go for it.)   
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Offline TomSea

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #64 on: October 16, 2017, 01:49:43 pm »
That may well be your position as a father vis a vis your daughter.  It is not a position that may be taken as a coercive matter by the state.  Women are not chattel.  The government may not deny a woman's fundamental liberty to decide FOR HERSELF whether to carry a non-viable fetus to term.

Don't like that?  Then utilize your powers of persuasion.   (I'd suggest a bit more empathy and compassion, but, hey, if you think sexist bullying helps, then go for it.)   

 88finger point

What's next? Muslims are our neighbors and friends while you slam a religion that feeds millions of the hungry a day?

Resorting to name-calling for arguments and again, accuses others of being coercive while he stands up for the state to take lives away just like in Germany in the 1930s and 1940s.

How sick, it's not a human life, we might as well have Cecil Richards, head of Planned Parenthood here, same demented arguments, "well, let's not trouble a woman from killing her child".

Offline TomSea

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #65 on: October 16, 2017, 01:56:12 pm »
Abortion as a sake of convenience, to throw a life away.  That is what we are talking about.

Why limit it to that? Allow parents to kill their children until their 18th birthday? Being facetious of course.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #66 on: October 16, 2017, 02:03:24 pm »
The abortion issue should be about creating the conditions for abortion to be unnecessary, or as rare as possible.   Instead, it has become an existential struggle of women seeking to protect their right to self-determination against encroachment by the state in the name of religion. 

Stated simply, women cannot gain full equality with men if the state forces them to reproduce.   That is a choice that can only be made by women themselves.   For that reason,  pro-lifers cannot win this battle - and if they truly want to save lives, the paradigm must shift from coercion to persuasion.

Of all the nonsensical things you have said in defense of killing unborn children under the faux argument that it's good for women, and that somehow small government pro-life conservatives are villains, this is the DUMBEST.

You just don't care what the truth is, do you, @Jazzhead?   You just keep repeating the lies ad nauseum.

The only question is whether you believe the stuff you vomit, or are you just playing a sick game.......

I am perhaps the only feminist on this board.  I have been fighting for equality for women since my childhood.  I am fully aware of the inequities, and I will defend women's equality to the death.

But what you are arguing is pure GARBAGE.  Your pretense of wanting women equal is an exercise in abject absurdity.

You don't care one tiny bit about women, nor our supposed "rights." 

And while I'm at it, you don't care about African-Americans either.  Because what you are arguing for here, is the death of millions of minority children, as per the wishes of Margaret Sanger, to annihilate the black population.

Congratulations for being the most backwards, racist, sexist person on this board.

Keep it up.  Keep belittling women.  Keep advocating permanent emotional and physical damage for women.

Your vile, deceitful words make me sick.
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Offline TomSea

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #67 on: October 16, 2017, 02:04:51 pm »
Ron Paul, though many of us may not like what he often says,  was a practicing gynecologist, he says life begins at birth and that he knew from personal experience, there have been doctors who performed many abortions but then, they stopped because they came to the conclusion they were doing a gross long.

We are really seeing a feminist argument put up here.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2017, 02:14:45 pm »
Of all the nonsensical things you have said in defense of killing unborn children under the faux argument that it's good for women, and that somehow small government pro-life conservatives are villains, this is the DUMBEST.

You just don't care what the truth is, do you, @Jazzhead?   You just keep repeating the lies ad nauseum.

The only question is whether you believe the stuff you vomit, or are you just playing a sick game.......

I am perhaps the only feminist on this board.  I have been fighting for equality for women since my childhood.  I am fully aware of the inequities, and I will defend women's equality to the death.

But what you are arguing is pure GARBAGE.  Your pretense of wanting women equal is an exercise in abject absurdity.

You don't care one tiny bit about women, nor our supposed "rights." 

And while I'm at it, you don't care about African-Americans either.  Because what you are arguing for here, is the death of millions of minority children, as per the wishes of Margaret Sanger, to annihilate the black population.

Congratulations for being the most backwards, racist, sexist person on this board.

Keep it up.  Keep belittling women.  Keep advocating permanent emotional and physical damage for women.

Your vile, deceitful words make me sick.

You support the notion of women as chattel.  You are one phony feminist.   

Abortion is as terrible as you say it is.  Still, it is a woman's choice, not that state's.   Why are you so afraid of your ability to persuade others to do the right thing?   (Hint - lay off the name calling.   The women you despise are human beings, caught on the horns of a terrible dilemma,  often without a partner or other shoulder to cry on.  Spend your time and energy to HELP THEM, not hector me because I dare to disagree with you.)       
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Offline verga

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2017, 02:33:25 pm »
That may well be your position as a father vis a vis your daughter.  It is not a position that may be taken as a coercive matter by the state.  Women are not chattel.  The government may not deny a woman's fundamental liberty to decide FOR HERSELF whether to carry a non-viable fetus to term.

Don't like that?  Then utilize your powers of persuasion.   (I'd suggest a bit more empathy and compassion, but, hey, if you think sexist bullying helps, then go for it.)   
@Jazzhead Your position is completely amoral.
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #70 on: October 16, 2017, 02:34:13 pm »
You support the notion of women as chattel.  You are one phony feminist.   

Abortion is as terrible as you say it is.  Still, it is a woman's choice, not that state's.   Why are you so afraid of your ability to persuade others to do the right thing?   (Hint - lay off the name calling.   The women you despise are human beings, caught on the horns of a terrible dilemma,  often without a partner or other shoulder to cry on.  Spend your time and energy to HELP THEM, not hector me because I dare to disagree with you.)     

There is no such thing as a real feminist who supports the harm that abortion does against women, femicide, racism, and degradation............ not to mention the murder of innocents.

You're talking about politically leftist pseudo-feminism.  That's what you believe in, and are arguing, and it's entirely made up of lies.

You have ZERO respect for women, and I'll put my 68 years of being a woman and fighting for equality against your phony internet copy and paste leftist nonsense any day.

You vomit what you are told.  I LIVE what I believe.

It is YOU who want women in bondage, and every single time you get on a pro-life thread and argue for the death of children you prove that your desire is to keep women from true freedom.

Wake up, little boy.  You know nothing, and you advertise it every time you get on these threads and spew your leftist lies.

Liberals hate women.  Stop being a hater.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

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Offline musiclady

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #71 on: October 16, 2017, 02:36:41 pm »
@Jazzhead Your position is completely amoral.

@Jazzhead's position is amoral, sexist, and bullying. 
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #72 on: October 16, 2017, 02:44:13 pm »
@Jazzhead Your position is completely amoral.

I support individual liberty.  I oppose abortion.   That means I seek to persuade, not coerce.  If that makes me "amoral", then so be it.   
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #73 on: October 16, 2017, 02:51:04 pm »
I support individual liberty.  I oppose abortion.   That means I seek to persuade, not coerce.  If that makes me "amoral", then so be it.

Just for the record, as a woman who believes in equality and respect for women, I am done arguing with you....... a typical sexist liberal who wants women in bondage, and tries to bully people on the internet into believing liberal swill.  (Stop it with that "persuasion" poppycock).

Just realize that we've got your number here, @Jazzhead.

You don't care about women.   You care about leftist politics.   You want the state to keep women in slavery just like every other leftist shill.

Carry on..........
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #74 on: October 16, 2017, 02:52:02 pm »
There is no such thing as a real feminist who supports the harm that abortion does against women, femicide, racism, and degradation............ not to mention the murder of innocents.


Stop hyperventilating.  Calm down.  And stop lying about my position:  I DO NOT SUPPORT ABORTION. 

You think criminalizing abortion is consistent with American values of individual liberty as protected by our Constitution.   I disagree - when the fetus is not yet viable the woman must have the freedom to decide for herself.  It is her body,  and she has dominion over her body, not the state.  How can you be a "feminist" and believe otherwise?

Note that NOTHING I have stated above prevents you and other pro-lifers from doing your utmost to persuade a woman in dire circumstances to do the right thing.  IT CAN BE DONE.  What are you so afraid of?  Make your moral arguments, lend your sympathy, support and compassion.  My point is simply and only that you cannot demand that your moral argument be imposed at the point of a government gun.   
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 03:00:01 pm by Jazzhead »
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