Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services

[sneakypete]

So right to life as a human is determined by technology to support the life outside the mother?

And right to life changes as technology changes?

It is not a religious issue.

@thackney

Huh,when did pregnancy become technical?  It's physical,although technology is used to monitor and protect both the mother and child.

[DCPatriot]

Ain't you "special",comrade?

Really? You want to go THERE? How about God,in the Old Testament,telling the Christian soldiers to take the babies of a defeated city by their heels and bash their brains out against the city walls to make sure those "evil"' people no longer existed? Come on,Bubba,let's here you call your God a baby killing murderer! Show some balls and be consistent!

Come on, Pete.   Breathe.

They come back with "...that's Old Testament...."

But before civilization took hold they had their own take on the adage:  "Give me your children and I'll give you the future".

If one has suffered the horrors of war with the same tribe every 15-20 years, it suddenly dawns on one where the warriors and leaders come from.   Kill them all!

Is God capable of giving such an order?  For a greater good.  A greater peace?

[Jazzhead]

Helloooooo??  What about all the FACTS I posted about the purpose of abortion relative to Invar's statement??

That's what you asked me about, and what I responded to, and you evaded the entire subject to use your dried up old liberal talking points.

Respond to my post, please....... about abortion's goal to allow women to be promiscuous without consequence by killing their babies.

The reason most women abort is not to "allow them to continue to be promiscuous".   I simply cannot believe your self-characterization as a feminist, spouting slut-shaming nonsense like that. INVAR I expect it from - but you?   

  What Margaret Sanger may have said close to a century ago isn't the point - woman abort for a myriad of reasons, mostly reflecting desperate circumstances such as abandonment by a partner in circumstances where the woman is afraid of the possibility of raising a child in poverty and alone.   Such women need help and support to do the right thing. 

Why not provide it?     

[musiclady]

The reason most women abort is not to "allow them to continue to be promiscuous".   I simply cannot believe your self-characterization as a feminist, spouting slut-shaming nonsense like that. INVAR I expect it from - but you?   

  What Margaret Sanger may have said close to a century ago isn't the point - woman abort for a myriad of reasons, mostly reflecting desperate circumstances such as abandonment by a partner in circumstances where the woman is afraid of the possibility of raising a child in poverty and alone.   Such women need help and support to do the right thing. 

Why not provide it?   

EXCUSE me!!!  I know you're bound and determined to sing the same old song here, but it has been pointed out to you, and if you are even slightly honest, you KNOW that the people who are actually PROVIDING the support for these women ARE the Pro-lifers.  It is WE who are providing help and support to "do the right thing," NOT the pro-abortion left that you ally yourself with.

The idea that I am "slut shaming" is preposterous and disgustingly dishonest.

The ideals of Margaret Sanger live on, and pervade the abortion mills where women are given NO help to do the right thing, and are many times forced to abort their babies by lies, and will suffer their entire lives because of the crime they committed against their own baby.

If we are talking about compassion and caring, you are looking to the wrong people, Jazz.  You are looking to a murderous enemy, and not to the community that saves lives and ministers to women, men and takes care of their needs.

Why are you so willfully blind to the truth about what is really going on?  WHY??

IF you care about these women, start volunteering at a pro-life Christian crisis pregnancy center and do something that shows compassion and not the faux concern of the political left that has gotten fat and rich on the corpses of millions of innocent children.

You are on the WRONG side, if you are even close to what you claim to be.

Edited to ping you @Jazzhead

[roamer_1]

The reason most women abort is not to "allow them to continue to be promiscuous". 

In the aggregate, that is indeed the purpose. Those who preach promiscuity know full well the consequences bourn by that woman in the grandular sense. And her choice is incidental in the grand scheme. Either she will abort, adding to her sin without understanding - to continue the curse that is upon her, or she will become enthralled to the state, to raise yet another generation of state dependent children to rise up and carry the curse forward.

[roamer_1]

Really? You want to go THERE? How about God,in the Old Testament,telling the Christian soldiers to take the babies of a defeated city by their heels and bash their brains out against the city walls to make sure those "evil"' people no longer existed? Come on,Bubba,let's here you call your God a baby killing murderer! Show some balls and be consistent!

The answer to your question is ultimately found in the question: Why were some merely conquered and others annihilated? Annihilated to the point that everything was burned and nothing taken as spoil. How strange, eh?

[INVAR]

Really? You want to go THERE? How about God,in the Old Testament,telling the Christian soldiers to take the babies of a defeated city by their heels and bash their brains out against the city walls to make sure those "evil"' people no longer existed? Come on,Bubba,let's here you call your God a baby killing murderer! Show some balls and be consistent![/size]

Hey Pete, I love you man.  I really do.

I get where you are coming from having been an Atheist for awhile myself.  I get the hostility and recognize in part why it is there - I was there myself once.

I do not expect you to get where I am coming from - you make no pretense whatsoever to be something you are not.  Despite our differing beliefs in terms of Providence or lack thereof, your comments on this board showcase your moral center in regards to liberty is a lot closer to where mine is in comparison to the few who claim Christ but advocate behaviors anathema to Him.

I know it's hard to stomach or comprehend initially why it is God demanded sacrifices in the OT and commanded his nation to decimate whole tribes and cities down to every man, woman and child - and I do not expect you to  accept or understand why it is that was done.   Do note that it was not to force anyone to convert or die.  It was judgment, even if you and I in our feeble understanding think it was unjust.

God is consistent.  It is humans who are not.

[TomSea]

Trump administration: ‘Life begins at conception’

The Department of Health and Human Services has published a draft of a new strategic plan that states in its introduction that life begins at conception.

The personhood of the unborn child is central to the abortion debate — as even the justice who wrote the landmark Roe v. Wade opinion has acknowledged — because, if established in law, it would nullify a “right” to abortion.

http://www.wnd.com/2017/10/trump-administration-life-begins-at-conception/

Again, that this is even being spoken about is because HHS has chosen to make it a part of its platform.

Keep On Trumpin'

[Hoodat]

The legal definition on when an abortion is permitted, and when it is not, is inherently arbitrary.

Nothing at all arbitrary about it.  The Constitution is clear.  It is a decision left to the States.

The intent is to provide the woman with a meaningful opportunity to decide, so it is usually described as a designated period of time following implantation.

That may be your intent.  But it is not the intent of the Constitution of the United States of America.  I prefer going by what the Constitution says instead of forfeiting my rights as a citizen to the tyranny of people like you who think they know best.

My own view is that, morally, the limit should be set at about the time the fetus can feel pain.

Not everyone shares your view.  Which is why we have a system of government where society is shaped by the voice of the people through their State and Local legislatures.  So that the will of the people in one state is not overruled by tyrants such as yourself who have no qualms about imposing your will on people in other parts of the country at the point of a gun.  It is what separates you from people such as myself.  I will choose the Constitution over tyranny every time.  I would never ever subject the people of any State to my position on abortion contrary to the will of the people of that State.  Yet you have no qualms at all about doing exactly that.

And I don't believe your claim either.  If they found out today that this newly created life experienced pain about the same the heart began beating, then I highly suspect that your view would suddenly change.  Because you have already stated multiple times that abortion must remain legal without regard to anything else.

[Hoodat]

That's how I choose to view faith - that God helps things work out for the best.   

Wow, this paints the Holocaust in a totally different light.

A woman who aborts a fetus because her partner has abandoned her .  .  .

The partner abandoned her because he considers abortion to be a valid method of birth control.  Take it off the table, and you will have a heck of a lot less men knocking up women and then abandoning them.  Once again, you fail to recognize that abortion benefits the man - not the woman.

[Hoodat]

@TomSea

Blah,blah,mindless blah. ALL cultures seem to be "the culture of death",and there is no culture where this is more true than the Christian culture that celebrates the death and the alleged resurrection of Jesus.

Jesus isn't dead.  Don't know where you are getting your information from, but this Christian doesn't celebrate Christ's death.  I celebrate the relationship I have with the Father through the Son, and because of that, the relationship I have with Holy Spirit.

It is about relationship.  It always has been, ever since the Garden.

It would be a fair statement to say that Christianity is a death cult that embraces murder and other forms of death so God can resurrect the dead.

No, not a fair statement, but an ignorant statement.

Without Resurrection,Christianity has nothing to offer but guilt and punishment.

But it does have the Resurrection - a testimony of God's love for you.


Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

Matthew 13:44

You are the treasure @sneakypete .  That is how God looks at you.  No guilt.  No punishment.  Only love.

[Hoodat]

Ignore them, buddy!   Ignore the trolls who get their jollies this morning savaging you while they're sipping coffee.

You serve as an important member here at TBR, @Jazzhead

You keep the haughty 'local'  Christian coalition flummoxed....the ones that find it necessary to preach/condescend everyone with an alternate opinion.

@DCPatriot  @Right_in_Virginia

What about the Christians here who happen to believe in our Constitution - who believe that the Commonwealth of Virginia should determine its own laws when it comes to fraud, theft, murder, assault, cohabitation, ear piercings, tattoos, car insurance, rape, marriage, and abortion?

Because that is what I have been arguing since the very beginning.  I prefer to go by what the Constitution says.  Perhaps like Jazzhead, you do not.

[musiclady]

@DCPatriot  @Right_in_Virginia

What about the Christians here who happen to believe in our Constitution - who believe that the Commonwealth of Virginia should determine its own laws when it comes to fraud, theft, murder, assault, cohabitation, ear piercings, tattoos, car insurance, rape, marriage, and abortion?

Because that is what I have been arguing since the very beginning.  I prefer to go by what the Constitution says.  Perhaps like Jazzhead, you do not.

Christians who believe in the Constitution are the ones who have been debating against abortion here, @Hoodat.

And WE are the ones the anti-social conservatives despise and call "trolls."

That's why I don't feed either of them. 

[Hoodat]

But no one on this thread is defending abortion.

No one but you.  When you declare again and again that abortion must remain legal despite what the people want or what the Constitution says, then you are defending abortion.

The issue is whether the state, at the behest of "Christians" like yourself,  should determine whether a woman will bear a child, or whether the woman should decide for herself.

Nope.  The question is whether the people of State (with Christians representing but a small minority) have the right to determine their own laws when it comes to abortion, just as they do with everything else.  (See:  shoplifting, running red lights, hitting people over the head with baseball bats, shouting "FIRE!" in a crowded theater, taxing the sale of newspapers, awarding State scholarship money to attend private religious institutions, etc.)

btw, the woman has already made her decision.  She willfully chose to engage in the activity which caused her pregnancy.
With everything else in life, actions have consequences.  If we could only abort jail sentences after we get caught robbing banks.  Or abort our houses burning down after we failed to replace faulty wiring.  Or abort the need for a lung transplant because the ones we have now are rife with cancer from years of smoking cigarettes.

If they had only warned us that smoking causes cancer.  Or that having unprotected sex causes cancer.

Not all of us here, not even all of us who believe in Christ,  think that as conservatives it is the role of the state to enforce Biblical morality.

Conservatives believe the role of a State is to do what the people want, which is why we have State legislatures.  Go figure.

Contrast that with your view that the State doesn't get a choice in the matter, but must accept the tyranny you dish out without regard to any written law.

Incidentally, what is your view on laws against stealing?

Rather, that task is best performed by individuals speaking with and helping other individuals,  empathic to the circumstances in which women find themselves, facing the fear and anguish of spending the next 20 years of their lives raising a child alone without the financial and emotional means to do so.

Let me see if I got this right.  You deny the voice of the people in shaping society through representative government.  Yet you have the effrontery to tell us that we need to voice our views to others?  Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds?

I feel quite safe in saying that is not the attitude that Christ would have

Based on what?

[Hoodat]

Really? You want to go THERE? How about God,in the Old Testament,telling the Christian soldiers to take the babies of a defeated city by their heels and bash their brains out against the city walls to make sure those "evil"' people no longer existed? Come on,Bubba,let's here you call your God a baby killing murderer! Show some balls and be consistent!

Old Testament Christian soldiers?

[bigheadfred]

@sneakypete

GOD is a baby killer.  But they were some really big babies.

[Smokin Joe]

Horseshit.  You are, and have gone to great lengths to defend abortion and define helping a woman kill the baby she does not want because she chose to have sex outside of marriage or when it is not convenient, as 'compassion' .

You just defended abortion, contrary to the previous sentence you uttered.  You talk out of both sides of your face to disguise what you really stand for.


By all means then, we should dispense immediately with all laws that make murder illegal,  make stealing legal, make bearing false witness legal, make slander legal and adultery preferred and marriage illegal since those are enforcements of biblical morality whether you choose to recognize them as such or not.

You do not believe in that at all.   I recall you insisting in a previous discussion that trying to talk a woman out of killing her infant was 'coercion' from "self righteous bigots" and that no one but the woman has any right to interfere with her decision.   You insisted abortion must be kept legal at all costs, and that all women must have the state-sanctioned "right" to determine whether or not to kill her baby with the full taxpayer assistance of medical professionals.

Not surprising that you find the truth offensive. Like the one whom you are a willing pawn in service, he too is outraged when Truth shines a light on lies.

You follow a Jesus of your own imagination.  You have willfully discarded and ignored His own words and admonitions about repentance and sinning no more, and have then gone to declare such a statement to be self-righteous judgmentally. 

The sheep hear His voice.  You sir, speak in another voice altogether.  That is why you declare the Truth to be a 'racket'.  You do your father's bidding willfully.

"There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death". - Proverbs 16:25

That is all you promote here.  The way of death, not life.

All of this raises the question of whether a woman has the 'right' to compel a doctor who will not perform abortions for religious reasons to do so. It isn't baking a cake, but it is the same principle.

[bigheadfred]

@INVAR @sneakypete

I do not expect you to  accept or understand why it is that was done.   Do note that it was not to force anyone to convert or die.  It was judgment, even if you and I in our feeble understanding think it was unjust.

I understand it. And I agree with it.

[DCPatriot]

@DCPatriot  @Right_in_Virginia

What about the Christians here who happen to believe in our Constitution - who believe that the Commonwealth of Virginia should determine its own laws when it comes to fraud, theft, murder, assault, cohabitation, ear piercings, tattoos, car insurance, rape, marriage, and abortion?

Because that is what I have been arguing since the very beginning.  I prefer to go by what the Constitution says.  Perhaps like Jazzhead, you do not.

I believe it's a State's Rights issue, period.

I said I was avidly Pro-Life, but I don't advocate for the repeal of Roe v Wade.

Start by mimicking those heart-breaking mistreated animal PSA's, where for $19 a month, you can save and care for them.

If the St. Jude or Shriner's PSAs don't grab you by the throat....you're not human.

Get young girls to see the value of their offspring...not some excess tissue to destroyed.

Maybe that horse has left the barn...but "there's got to be a pony in there somewhere."

[sneakypete]

Jesus isn't dead.  Don't know where you are getting your information from, but this Christian doesn't celebrate Christ's death.  I celebrate the relationship I have with the Father through the Son, and because of that, the relationship I have with Holy Spirit.

It is about relationship.  It always has been, ever since the Garden.

But it does have the Resurrection - a testimony of God's love for you.

@Hoodat

WAIT A MINUTE! If Jesus didn't die,how could he have been Resurrected?

[sneakypete]

Old Testament Christian soldiers?

@Hoodat

Maybe it was the "NEW,AND IMPROVED NEW TESTAMENT? I haven't read that superstitious nonsense since I was in the 5th grade,and that was a couple of years ago.

I do believe it was the ORIGINAL TRUE TESTAMENT of Gods thoughts and actions,though. Best I remember,God was around before Jesus. If he wasn't,he wouldn't have been able to impregnate another man's wife.

BTW,can  you imagine the conversation when Mary's husband came back home and discovered a pregnant wife? "Uh,hun,I was faithful to you,honest! It was GOD that knocked me up in my sleep while I was dreaming off  you! HONEST!"

Has to be THE best cover story EVER.

[sneakypete]

All of this raises the question of whether a woman has the 'right' to compel a doctor who will not perform abortions for religious reasons to do so. It isn't baking a cake, but it is the same principle.

@Smokin Joe

There is no question at all. She has an absolute right to ASK,not "compel" him to give her an abortion,just like he has an absolute right to tell her to go urinate up a rope. He's a doctor,not a slave or servant.

[Bigun]

I believe it's a State's Rights issue, period.

I said I was avidly Pro-Life, but I don't advocate for the repeal of Roe v Wade.

Start by mimicking those heart-breaking mistreated animal PSA's, where for $19 a month, you can save and care for them.

If the St. Jude or Shriner's PSAs don't grab you by the throat....you're not human.

Get young girls to see the value of their offspring...not some excess tissue to destroyed.

Maybe that horse has left the barn...but "there's got to be a pony in there somewhere."

Roe is not based on anything in the Constitution.  Its something made up out of whole cloth by its writers and as such isn't worth the paper it's written on IMHO. 

The feral government has no dog in this at all.

[INVAR]

I do believe it was the ORIGINAL TRUE TESTAMENT of Gods thoughts and actions,though. Best I remember,God was around before Jesus. If he wasn't,he wouldn't have been able to impregnate another man's wife.

Actually - (I do not expect you to buy this - but hey - I'm just stating what I understand), Jesus was WITH the Father at Creation.  In fact, HE was the One whom created and did everything, doing the will of the Father. John 1:1-3 tells us that The Word was with the Father at the beginning and made everything, and when you jump down to verse 14 it tells us that He emptied Himself of divinity to become flesh, and whom became names Yeshua, or the Christ.

BTW,can  you imagine the conversation when Mary's husband came back home and discovered a pregnant wife? "Uh,hun,I was faithful to you,honest! It was GOD that knocked me up in my sleep while I was dreaming off  you! HONEST!"

Has to be THE best cover story EVER.

Good discernment!  You are actually more right than you know.

Joseph ( the guy who was betrothed *engaged* to Mary) was a bit put off by his intended being knocked up:

"Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly." Matthew 1:19

Yup.  Was probably not a pleasant time in the old homestead in Nazareth a that time.  I took an Angel in a dream to explain to Joseph that the kid was from God and not from another man having his way with his fiancé.

[bigheadfred]

Sooo...both times I knocked up my wife and she was saying oh God! oh God! it wasn't me???? (Hangs head)