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Offline Jazzhead

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« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2017, 10:16:49 AM »
Very mild response for someone who normally goes ballistic about bigots and bullies.

Wonder why that is?

Hey, my position is consistent.   Bigotry such as the Christian baker's or the gay Seattle barista's is actionable under the law because in each case an innocent customer has been victimized by the store owner's arbitrary discrimination.   But your position isn't consistent.

Wonder why that is?   
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Offline txradioguy

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« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2017, 10:29:32 AM »
Hey, my position is consistent.   Bigotry such as the Christian baker's or the gay Seattle barista's is actionable under the law because in each case an innocent customer has been victimized by the store owner's arbitrary discrimination.

So you'd be here cheering loudly if the Christians verbally abused embarrassed and humiliated by this shop owner successfully sued for discrimination?

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But your position isn't consistent.

And I'm sure you can show where it isn't?

Please feel free to try and do so.

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Wonder why that is?

Because you're flailing...and a hypocrite.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 10:29:48 AM by txradioguy »
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline skeeter

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« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2017, 10:32:54 AM »
So you'd be here cheering loudly if the Christians verbally abused embarrassed and humiliated by this shop owner successfully sued for discrimination?

And I'm sure you can show where it isn't?

Please feel free to try and do so.

Because you're flailing...and a hypocrite.

The gay coffee shop owner wasn't being asked to cater at a church bake sale.

The baker wasn't simply being asked to sell a cake to a guy who happened to be gay.

There is no equivelance between the two situations.

« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 10:33:38 AM by skeeter »

Offline Jazzhead

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« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2017, 10:40:41 AM »
The gay coffee shop owner wasn't being asked to cater at a church bake sale.

The baker wasn't simply being asked to sell a cake to a guy who happened to be gay.

There is no equivelance between the two situations.

Sure there is.  In each case, the customer sought the service the store owner advertised to provide.   
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

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"Not forever.  Just for now"

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Offline txradioguy

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« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2017, 10:43:10 AM »
The gay coffee shop owner wasn't being asked to cater at a church bake sale.

The baker wasn't simply being asked to sell a cake to a guy who happened to be gay.

There is no equivelance between the two situations.

Really?  How do you figure?

If this had been a coffee shop owned by a Christian and he'd told the perverts to get out of his shop and done it in the loud manner this gay shop owner did...not only would have all the civil "rights" groups been all over this with lawsuits...Jazzy here would have been frothing at the mouth with his spittle flinging rants about Christian bigotry.

Instead he comes in and makes a very milquetoast response about the bias and bigotry of the coffee shop owner.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

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« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2017, 10:44:00 AM »
Sure there is.  In each case, the customer sought the service the store owner advertised to provide.

I don't recall the owner of the bakery advertising he made gay "wedding" cakes.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline LateForLunch

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« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2017, 10:50:56 AM »
I don't recall the owner of the bakery advertising he made gay "wedding" cakes.

Yeah, the law is the law. The coffee shop owner opened himself up to a potential lawsuit the moment he mentioned the customer's beliefs. It is standing precedent for case law that denial of products, services or civil entitlements because of religion is illegal. If the coffee shop owner had confined his criticisms to non-religious elements, he would be in the clear. The right to deny service to anyone has an unspoken addendum, "...legally deny service". One may not deny service to someone because they are Christian or any other religion.

I have been told by people who know that intention is 9/10ths of the law. The coffee shop owner demonstrated his intention to deny the customer service based on an arguably illegal premise. 'Dodged a bullet if the Christian doesn't sue. He has a strong case, IMO because of the his public statements. The question is whether it is worth the investment to pursue it.

Where is the ACLU when a Christian is mistreated based on his chosen beliefs/doctrine? Out playing golf or protecting transsexual Communist child-molesters no doubt.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 11:21:59 AM by mystery-ak »
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Offline Jazzhead

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« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2017, 10:55:44 AM »

Instead he comes in and makes a very milquetoast response about the bias and bigotry of the coffee shop owner.

I said I agreed with the poster who claimed the barista should be sued for his bias and bigotry.   How is that a "milquetoast response"?  Gay bigots, Christian bigots, I'll defend neither.  And neither should you.   

 
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

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"Not forever.  Just for now"

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Online mystery-ak

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« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2017, 11:05:46 AM »
@LateForLunch I don't think you edited enough...we can express an opinion without using derogatory names..please edit again

edited to add I went ahead and fixed it myself along with @txradioguy quote of it...
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 11:23:32 AM by mystery-ak »
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Offline txradioguy

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« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2017, 11:08:39 AM »
Yeah, the law is the law. The coffee shop owner opened himself up to a potential lawsuit the moment he mentioned the customer's beliefs. It is standing precedent for case law that denial of products, services or civil entitlements because of religion is illegal. If the coffee shop owner had confined his criticisms to non-religious elements, he would be in the clear. The right to deny service to anyone has an unspoken addendum, "...legally deny service". One may not deny service to someone because they are Christian or any other religion.

I have been told by people who know that intention is 9/10ths of the law. The coffee shop owner demonstrated his intention to deny the customer service based on an arguably illegal premise. 'Dodged a bullet if the Christian doesn't sue. He has a strong case, IMO because of the his public statements. The question is whether it is worth the investment to pursue it.

Where is the ACLU when a Christian is mistreated based on his chosen beliefs/doctrine? Out playing golf or protecting transsexual Communist child-molesters no doubt.

All he could have said was "I don't allow soliciting in here"...which was a legit reason since the people in question were leaving religious printouts/material in the establishment...and it would have been a non issue.

But instead...
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 11:21:23 AM by mystery-ak »
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline skeeter

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« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2017, 11:25:18 AM »
Really?  How do you figure?

If this had been a coffee shop owned by a Christian and he'd told the perverts to get out of his shop and done it in the loud manner this gay shop owner did...not only would have all the civil "rights" groups been all over this with lawsuits...Jazzy here would have been frothing at the mouth with his spittle flinging rants about Christian bigotry.

Instead he comes in and makes a very milquetoast response about the bias and bigotry of the coffee shop owner.

I totally agree about the emotional disparity in @Jazzhead's response.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 11:26:07 AM by skeeter »

Offline Jazzhead

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« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2017, 12:06:48 PM »
I totally agree about the emotional disparity in @Jazzhead's response.

"Emotional disparity"?  Is that what conservatives are reduced to complaining about?   

And do you really want to equate the barista's response with the bakers before knowing all the facts?   I can't tell if the Christians were proseletyzing or distributing literature in the barista's shop.   If they were, he would have been within his rights to throw them out.  Same with the baker if the customer had asked him to print on the cake a message praising gay sex.   

Unlawful discrimination arises when service is denied solely by reason of who the customer is.   That seems to have been the case with the baker -  he refused service prior to any discussion about the contents of the cake.   

"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

   - Duke Ellington, upon hearing of the death of Louis Armstrong

"Not forever.  Just for now"

    - Jay Farrar

Offline skeeter

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« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2017, 12:08:36 PM »
"Emotional disparity"?  Is that what conservatives are reduced to complaining about?   

And do you really want to equate the barista's response with the bakers before knowing all the facts?   I can't tell if the Christians were proseletyzing or distributing literature in the barista's shop.   If they were, he would have been within his rights to throw them out.  Same with the baker if the customer had asked him to print on the cake a message praising gay sex.   

Unlawful discrimination arises when service is denied solely by reason of who the customer is.   That seems to have been the case with the baker -  he refused service prior to any discussion about the contents of the cake.   

Now you're arguing on behalf of the barista. Funny I never saw you give the baker the benefit of a doubt.

'Nuff said.

Offline Jazzhead

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« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2017, 12:38:35 PM »
Now you're arguing on behalf of the barista. Funny I never saw you give the baker the benefit of a doubt.

'Nuff said.

The facts regarding the baker  are set forth in affidavits and briefs filed with the Court.   The facts regarding the barista's behavior are set forth in an article on a right-wing website.   The baker claims he's an "artist",  but refused service before there was any discussion concerning the artistry to be employed on the cake.   There's no evidence whatsoever that his customer badgered him or otherwise demanded he provide anything other than what he'd advertised.   

Regarding the barista, do you disagree that it is significant whether the customers were proselytizing or distributing literature in the barista's shop?   If they were, the barista - like any shop owner, gay, Christian or otherwise - has the right to boot 'em out.   If they weren't,  then the barista is advised to lawyer up,  if he can find a lawyer to defend his obnoxious bigotry.   
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

   - Duke Ellington, upon hearing of the death of Louis Armstrong

"Not forever.  Just for now"

    - Jay Farrar

Offline thackney

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« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2017, 01:24:12 PM »
Unlawful discrimination arises when service is denied solely by reason of who the customer is.   That seems to have been the case with the baker -  he refused service prior to any discussion about the contents of the cake.

False, he did offer to sell them anything that was in his store.  He was unwilling to be the supplier of a Gay Wedding Cake.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/06/29/colorado-baker-describes-harassment-after-refused-to-bake-cake-for-gay-wedding.html

He did not refuse them service.  He refused to make the specific product they wanted.
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Offline bolobaby

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« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2017, 01:37:11 PM »
Sue him just like if he was a Christian baker.

They won't. Christian's aren't hateful people hell-bent on destroying people they disagree with.

That's liberals.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2017, 01:46:15 PM »
"Emotional disparity"?  Is that what conservatives are reduced to complaining about?   
 
You fell into the trap, which is now sprung.

Although you have tried mightedly to say you are a conservative, you have grouped yourself otherwise.
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Offline Jazzhead

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« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2017, 02:14:11 PM »
You fell into the trap, which is now sprung.

Although you have tried mightedly to say you are a conservative, you have grouped yourself otherwise.

No, I'm mocking a so-called conservative who's using the same emotionally-laden arguments you'd expect from a liberal.  What I oppose is arbitrary bigotry, not the exercise of religious faith.  That's a conservative position.   
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

   - Duke Ellington, upon hearing of the death of Louis Armstrong

"Not forever.  Just for now"

    - Jay Farrar

Offline Jazzhead

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« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2017, 02:18:45 PM »

He did not refuse them service.  He refused to make the specific product they wanted.

That's not correct - he refused to sell them a wedding cake, an item which he advertised to provide.  According to the court briefs, he never discussed with the customer the design or message on the cake.   

That said, the death threats and harassment he's been subjected to are beyond the pale.   This is a legal question which can and will be resolved in the courts.   It is not a subject for mob justice.   
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

   - Duke Ellington, upon hearing of the death of Louis Armstrong

"Not forever.  Just for now"

    - Jay Farrar

Offline thackney

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« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2017, 02:24:24 PM »
That's not correct - he refused to sell them a wedding cake, an item which he advertised to provide.  According to the court briefs, he never discussed with the customer the design or message on the cake.

You can pretend all you want that any claimed wedding is the same.  But in that state of Colorado, at that time, it wasn't a recognized wedding.


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That said, the death threats and harassment he's been subjected to are beyond the pale.   This is a legal question which can and will be resolved in the courts.   It is not a subject for mob justice.

We agree on that point.

But they were not refused service because they were gay.  They were offered anything they had in the store to sell.
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Offline Jazzhead

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« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2017, 02:33:29 PM »
But they were not refused service because they were gay.  They were offered anything they had in the store to sell.

On that we must respectfully disagree.   They were refused a specific item on the baker's menu of advertised services, without regard to any artistry or message to be placed on the cake.   The baker was making a political statement at his customer's expense in violation of the law.   That he is cloaking it as his exercise of "religion" doesn't change its unlawful character.

Of course,  I may be wrong.  The Court's decision will be rendered later this year.   

"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

   - Duke Ellington, upon hearing of the death of Louis Armstrong

"Not forever.  Just for now"

    - Jay Farrar

Offline Cyber Liberty

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« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2017, 02:57:34 PM »
That's not correct - he refused to sell them a wedding cake, an item which he advertised to provide.     

You keep saying that like a broken record, but I don't think you have proven, either by a scan of an ad or a screen-grab of an online ad to prove your point.  Until you provide a link proving that wedding cakes were being advertised for sale to all comers, then I have say you've failed to put up, with the familiar second half to that equation.
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Offline thackney

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« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2017, 03:16:32 PM »
On that we must respectfully disagree.   They were refused a specific item on the baker's menu of advertised services, without regard to any artistry or message to be placed on the cake.   The baker was making a political statement at his customer's expense in violation of the law.   That he is cloaking it as his exercise of "religion" doesn't change its unlawful character.

Of course,  I may be wrong.  The Court's decision will be rendered later this year.

Yet the "law" of the time agreed with the Baker.  It wasn't a legal marriage in that state.
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Offline Jazzhead

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« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2017, 03:31:58 PM »
Yet the "law" of the time agreed with the Baker.  It wasn't a legal marriage in that state.

So what?   
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

   - Duke Ellington, upon hearing of the death of Louis Armstrong

"Not forever.  Just for now"

    - Jay Farrar

Offline Cyber Liberty

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« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2017, 03:35:30 PM »
So what?   

If I order somebody to rob a bank or I'll kidnap his wife, that would be illegal because I'm creating an illegal act.  The baker was being ordered to participate in what was then not a legal act, so that's what.  My example is a little extreme, but it will suffice to show the folly of your flippant response.
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