Author Topic: US demands raise fears that leaving NAFTA could hurt economy  (Read 948 times)

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Offline Suppressed

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US demands raise fears that leaving NAFTA could hurt economy
« on: October 12, 2017, 12:58:31 pm »
US demands raise fears that leaving NAFTA could hurt economy
By Paul Wiseman | AP October 11 at 4:03 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/us-demands-raise-fears-that-leaving-nafta-could-hurt-economy/2017/10/11/362a8392-aebf-11e7-9b93-b97043e57a22_story.html

[...]

The end of NAFTA would send economic tremors across the continent. American farmers depend on Mexico’s market. Manufacturers have built complicated supply chains that cross NAFTA borders. Consumers have benefited from lower costs.

[...]

If the United States left NAFTA, trade barriers to Canada and Mexico would pop back up. Some of the tariffs wouldn’t be especially high. But Mexican tariffs on many American farm products could soar — to as high as 37 percent on corn, for example, notes Caroline Freund, a senior fellow at Peterson.

[...]

Excerpt.
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Offline Suppressed

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Re: US demands raise fears that leaving NAFTA could hurt economy
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2017, 12:59:51 pm »
Trump is itching to help his buddies in the unions and the automakers on the backs of ordinary Americans, so I fear he'll go ahead and blow this up.  After all, you've got to destroy a few economies to make a crony-omelette!
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“In the outside world, I'm a simple geologist. But in here .... I am Falcor, Defender of the Alliance” --Randy Marsh

“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline driftdiver

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Re: US demands raise fears that leaving NAFTA could hurt economy
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2017, 01:14:15 pm »
Trump is itching to help his buddies in the unions and the automakers on the backs of ordinary Americans, so I fear he'll go ahead and blow this up.  After all, you've got to destroy a few economies to make a crony-omelette!

@Suppressed
Yeah it would be terrible to stop exporting all these jobs to Mexico.  Horrible.  I'm sure American workers who suddenly have more employment opportunities would find this terrible.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline Applewood

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Re: US demands raise fears that leaving NAFTA could hurt economy
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2017, 01:41:43 pm »
Leaving NAFTA could hurt the economy?  Whose economy? 

Can't be ours.  NAFTA caused serious damage to our economy and I'm not sure it helped Mexico's or Canada's either.  Getting out of it can't make our economy any worse than it is and might actually help.

Every time we enter into these trade agreements, we get screwed.  No more.

By the way, what happened to TPA/TPP?

Offline Suppressed

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Re: US demands raise fears that leaving NAFTA could hurt economy
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2017, 01:43:14 pm »
@Suppressed
Yeah it would be terrible to stop exporting all these jobs to Mexico.  Horrible.  I'm sure American workers who suddenly have more employment opportunities would find this terrible.

I know you believe in magic and that starting a trade war will just magically make everyone in the world decide to buy American at inflated prices rather than go where they can get the best deal, but for the real world, this is an idea of such colossal stupidity, it makes the brain hurt.

Actual data, actual experience, show that this would be dumb...but like the socialists who cry "It's wasn't TRUE socialism" every time their idea fails, we have trade suppressors yelling that this time, it won't bomb!
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“In the outside world, I'm a simple geologist. But in here .... I am Falcor, Defender of the Alliance” --Randy Marsh

“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline driftdiver

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Re: US demands raise fears that leaving NAFTA could hurt economy
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2017, 01:46:43 pm »
I know you believe in magic and that starting a trade war will just magically make everyone in the world decide to buy American at inflated prices rather than go where they can get the best deal, but for the real world, this is an idea of such colossal stupidity, it makes the brain hurt.

Actual data, actual experience, show that this would be dumb...but like the socialists who cry "It's wasn't TRUE socialism" every time their idea fails, we have trade suppressors yelling that this time, it won't bomb!

@Suppressed aka fearmonger

People like you said it would be good for America.  That our middle class would grow and enjoy greater prosperity.

You were right in only one way, our middle class has a lot more free time since the jobs left our country.

NAFTA is about wealth redistribution and that is it.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline Suppressed

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Re: US demands raise fears that leaving NAFTA could hurt economy
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2017, 01:49:29 pm »
@Suppressed aka fearmonger

People like you said it would be good for America.  That our middle class would grow and enjoy greater prosperity.

You were right in only one way, our middle class has a lot more free time since the jobs left our country.

NAFTA is about wealth redistribution and that is it.

So you believe that other Americans should give handouts to people just because they haven't changed to another job?  You believe France will pay more for something they could get cheaper elsewhere just because we're Americans?

You can't get something for nothing.  What you're saying is that the jobs aren't real...that they can't exist on a fair playing field, and that the only reason they exist is when we falsely prop them up on the backs of American consumers.

Just great.  Affirmative action for unions.
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“In the outside world, I'm a simple geologist. But in here .... I am Falcor, Defender of the Alliance” --Randy Marsh

“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: US demands raise fears that leaving NAFTA could hurt economy
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2017, 09:08:29 pm »
Consider the source of the article...

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: US demands raise fears that leaving NAFTA could hurt economy
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2017, 09:43:30 pm »
Leaving NAFTA could hurt the economy?  Whose economy? 

Can't be ours.  NAFTA caused serious damage to our economy and I'm not sure it helped Mexico's or Canada's either.  Getting out of it can't make our economy any worse than it is and might actually help.

Every time we enter into these trade agreements, we get screwed.  No more.

By the way, what happened to TPA/TPP?
Last time I bought brake drums I was asked if I wanted Mexican or Chinese. You can't get 'em new made here. How many factories, from ERTL toys to GM and Ford have moved south of the border?
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: US demands raise fears that leaving NAFTA could hurt economy
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2017, 11:48:12 pm »
Lots of strong opinions on NAFTA from both sides.

I just wonder if anyone has actually read it.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: US demands raise fears that leaving NAFTA could hurt economy
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2017, 12:07:33 am »
Lots of strong opinions on NAFTA from both sides.

I just wonder if anyone has actually read it.
I just know the road is supposed to go through to Canada just a mite west of here, and when it passed, it wasn't long before manufacturing jobs left the US for points South. So good jobs went there, and their people came here and snarfed up a lot of the less good jobs, and that didn't leave a lot.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline kevindavis007

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Re: US demands raise fears that leaving NAFTA could hurt economy
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2017, 12:56:20 am »
@Suppressed aka fearmonger

People like you said it would be good for America.  That our middle class would grow and enjoy greater prosperity.

You were right in only one way, our middle class has a lot more free time since the jobs left our country.

NAFTA is about wealth redistribution and that is it.


Sorry I shouldn't be forced to pay extra. Besides in 10 years I expect factories to be 90% automated.
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Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: US demands raise fears that leaving NAFTA could hurt economy
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2017, 01:05:05 am »
I just know the road is supposed to go through to Canada just a mite west of here, and when it passed, it wasn't long before manufacturing jobs left the US for points South. So good jobs went there, and their people came here and snarfed up a lot of the less good jobs, and that didn't leave a lot.

Disclaimer: I'm a free trade kind of guy.  I haven't read NAFTA.  I certainly don't assume it is a free (fair) trade agreement just because it has "Free Trade Agreement" in the name (see Affordable Care Act).

A couple of years ago I looked around and I found a couple interesting historical graphs.  One showed, IIRC, the US manufacturing jobs as a portion of global -- this showed a steady decline since WWII, with no spikes (for example, after 1994 when NAFTA was signed).  The other showed US manufacturing output -- a steady increase over the same time.  This made sense to me, we're becoming more productive while emerging markets are starting to emerge (so we produce more in terms of raw output, but less in terms of percent share of the increasing global output).

Tonight I found this chart (history of US manufacturing jobs) from the Bureau of Lying Statisticians:



What I see here is that the several years after NAFTA were the most stable in terms of US manufacturing jobs.  Then, during two big economic busts we lost manufacturing jobs and didn't seem to get them back.  Some will argue that since we didn't lose jobs as soon as the ink was dry then NAFTA was not a bad thing.  Others will argue either that it took time for the (negative) effects of NAFTA to be felt, or that NAFTA is the reason jobs don't come back after a recession, as evidenced by the fact that the big drops happened after it was signed.  Me?  I don't know.  Like I say, I haven't even read it.

My avatar shows the national debt in stacks of $100 bills.  If you look very closely under the crane you can see the Statue of Liberty.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: US demands raise fears that leaving NAFTA could hurt economy
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2017, 01:22:07 am »
Disclaimer: I'm a free trade kind of guy.  I haven't read NAFTA.  I certainly don't assume it is a free (fair) trade agreement just because it has "Free Trade Agreement" in the name (see Affordable Care Act).

A couple of years ago I looked around and I found a couple interesting historical graphs.  One showed, IIRC, the US manufacturing jobs as a portion of global -- this showed a steady decline since WWII, with no spikes (for example, after 1994 when NAFTA was signed).  The other showed US manufacturing output -- a steady increase over the same time.  This made sense to me, we're becoming more productive while emerging markets are starting to emerge (so we produce more in terms of raw output, but less in terms of percent share of the increasing global output).

Tonight I found this chart (history of US manufacturing jobs) from the Bureau of Lying Statisticians:



What I see here is that the several years after NAFTA were the most stable in terms of US manufacturing jobs.  Then, during two big economic busts we lost manufacturing jobs and didn't seem to get them back.  Some will argue that since we didn't lose jobs as soon as the ink was dry then NAFTA was not a bad thing.  Others will argue either that it took time for the (negative) effects of NAFTA to be felt, or that NAFTA is the reason jobs don't come back after a recession, as evidenced by the fact that the big drops happened after it was signed.  Me?  I don't know.  Like I say, I haven't even read it.
The sharp decline at 2001 (9/11), more decline came while the EPA was slowly ramping up emissions standards during the Bush years,  a sudden drop when the market crash happened in 2008, the slight increase during the Obama years might relate to one of the biggest Oil Booms the country has had since Spindletop. When it was done, North Dakota had gone from producing 150,000 BOPD to over 1 Million BOPD, with all the tubular goods, tools, new drilling rigs and modification packages to turn a basic rig into a walking rig for multi-well pads, and all the vehicles to handle all that from cars to Semis. Even so, a lot of Heavy Equipment was foreign made (lots of Kubota, and CAT was building in China) and a lot of parts were being made elsewhere. Tubular goods (drill pipe, casing) were coming from China, too, but the inferior durability and quality of the metallurgy soon had companies using American made tubulars again.

Overall, those jobs haven't recovered, and with the pressure to keep prices constant during the stagnant Obama Economy (Where people fell off the unemployment rolls instead of found work, and thus were not counted as unemployed) left people flooking for ways to improve their bottom line, and for the big boys, moving into new factories in a place where labor was cheaper was pretty seductive--so much so that that 'Great Sucking Sound' Mr. Perot talked about had reached the pitch of a jet at takeoff.   
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis