Author Topic: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg  (Read 9223 times)

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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #125 on: September 24, 2017, 02:51:39 am »
Oh I don't know... I paid cash money for my first house - 32.5k in hundred dollar bills - about 30 years ago. Totally legit deal.

When I was in business, I routinely carried 10k in cash on my person, and seldom had less than 2k on me...

OK.  But your highest example is about well short of a quarter mil and you were buying a house.  Paying cash for a house is a rare transaction, especially if it is over $230k.  But hey, it could be.  She will have her chance to prove it.

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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #126 on: September 24, 2017, 02:58:55 am »
This entire conversation is an indictment and revelation of the fact that even among those who self-identify as Conservative or Constitutionalist - liberty is no longer valued.  Tyranny is valued because the idea of using government to confiscate property that they deem may be used in a crime, and to punish those we hate, and to make us safe and secure is all that matters to most of the population that now lives in this land.

We are conditioned already to accept and endure the scourge of Isms, for our own good and benefit.  It's amazing to read all the Apologetics and justifications for it.

And it illustrates that liberty on these shores, is lost - and as Adams warned in 1775 - is never regained.

In this case you are overstating it.  She was released, btw.  There will be more investigating, as there should be.  It is odd behavior to say the least.  If it is found to be drug money then the government will probably keep it and use it to fight the same kind of crime.  These people cost taxpayers a lot of money as well as the grief they create with their drugs.  Many lives end as a result of drug addiction.  They deserve to lose the money.

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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #127 on: September 24, 2017, 03:11:29 am »
OK.  But your highest example is about well short of a quarter mil and you were buying a house.  Paying cash for a house is a rare transaction, especially if it is over $230k.  But hey, it could be.  She will have her chance to prove it.

The point is that she shouldn't have to prove it. That should be the other way around. If there is no proof of a crime, she should be on her way, and unmolested.

Offline DB

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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #128 on: September 24, 2017, 03:26:18 am »
OK.  But your highest example is about well short of a quarter mil and you were buying a house.  Paying cash for a house is a rare transaction, especially if it is over $230k.  But hey, it could be.  She will have her chance to prove it.

That $32.5k is about $70k in today's dollars. That isn't chump change.

What law did she break that gave the government the authority to take the money now without due process?

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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #129 on: September 24, 2017, 03:30:12 am »
In this case you are overstating it.  She was released, btw.  There will be more investigating, as there should be.  It is odd behavior to say the least.  If it is found to be drug money then the government will probably keep it and use it to fight the same kind of crime.  These people cost taxpayers a lot of money as well as the grief they create with their drugs.  Many lives end as a result of drug addiction.  They deserve to lose the money.

These cases too often involve the government not bringing any actual charges that bring a conviction. Yet they still take the money.

What criminals do doesn't justify a violation of our basic rights under the constitution.

Offline anubias

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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #130 on: September 24, 2017, 04:34:03 am »
Confiscating that money is theft. Period.

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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #131 on: September 24, 2017, 06:56:41 am »
Confiscating that money is theft. Period.

I'm sure folks like El Chapo or Al Capone would like that idea.  But I won't join in this love-in with murderers.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 06:58:10 am by TomSea »

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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #132 on: September 24, 2017, 07:49:39 am »
Confiscating that money is theft. Period.

Not if she is convicted.  In that case it is no more theft than if we confiscate bank robbery money.  Drug money is ill gotten gain.  It does not rightly belong to them.  If I could choose what to do with it, I'd say either spend it on law enforcement or drug rehab.

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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #133 on: September 24, 2017, 07:54:24 am »
I'm sure folks like El Chapo or Al Capone would like that idea.  But I won't join in this love-in with murderers.
The only love in we are having is with the United States Constitution, Amendments 4, 5, and 14. Read them some time.

Capone was finally hauled in over tax evasion, not murder or racketeering.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #134 on: September 24, 2017, 07:57:23 am »
These cases too often involve the government not bringing any actual charges that bring a conviction. Yet they still take the money.

What criminals do doesn't justify a violation of our basic rights under the constitution.

Government should not keep the money if there are no charges brought and no conviction.  But that has not happened here.  Time will tell.  So far there has been no violation of rights.  I will not condemn law enforcement until proven guilty in this case.  They are not guilty based on the past guilt of others any more than she is.  It was reasonable to hold the money while they investigate.  Anything else would have been idiotic.

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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #135 on: September 24, 2017, 08:01:41 am »
Not if she is convicted.  In that case it is no more theft than if we confiscate bank robbery money.  Drug money is ill gotten gain.  It does not rightly belong to them.  If I could choose what to do with it, I'd say either spend it on law enforcement or drug rehab.
With current asset forfeiture laws, no charges ever need be filed against her for the assets to be seized. This is the point we are arguing. The LEOs can take stuff without even charging a crime, much less getting a conviction, and the person has to sue to get it back--and that might not happen even then.
The asset is treated as having committed a crime and is forfeit, without a conviction, or even having charges levied against the owner. The owner has to prove the asset is innocent, if they get their day in court.
Needless to say, such laws provide a profit motive as the department seizing the asset under current law gets a cut.


If they proved the asset is the result of or involved in criminal activity that is another thing, but that isn't the way this works.

How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #136 on: September 24, 2017, 08:08:17 am »
Government should not keep the money if there are no charges brought and no conviction.  But that has not happened here.  Time will tell.  So far there has been no violation of rights.  I will not condemn law enforcement until proven guilty in this case.  They are not guilty based on the past guilt of others any more than she is.  It was reasonable to hold the money while they investigate.  Anything else would have been idiotic.

Then answer, what law did she break to justify the taking of her money based on the evidence they found searching her car?

Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #137 on: September 24, 2017, 01:57:50 pm »
Then answer, what law did she break to justify the taking of her money based on the evidence they found searching her car?

We'll get to that later.  Right now, there's a bunch of money and we need to get our hands on it!
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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #138 on: September 24, 2017, 04:46:03 pm »
With current asset forfeiture laws, no charges ever need be filed against her for the assets to be seized. This is the point we are arguing. The LEOs can take stuff without even charging a crime, much less getting a conviction, and the person has to sue to get it back--and that might not happen even then.
The asset is treated as having committed a crime and is forfeit, without a conviction, or even having charges levied against the owner. The owner has to prove the asset is innocent, if they get their day in court.
Needless to say, such laws provide a profit motive as the department seizing the asset under current law gets a cut.


If they proved the asset is the result of or involved in criminal activity that is another thing, but that isn't the way this works.

Not much surprises me anymore, but the fact there are people who actually think this is a good thing on a "Conservative" message board - does bewilder me.  It is an indictment of how ignorant we as a society have become of our foundations and why they were put in place the way they were.

I think we have truly arrived at the point where the Constitution truly is dead in all but name and lip service.

Tyranny is applauded and the tracks are being greased to empower the State to perform despotism, and we are reading the justification for its necessity.  Agents of the state must be PROVEN guilty and most of the time, even with enough evidence to charge - justice never comes.  Evil and treason are rewarded with more power and offices.  But a lowly citizen - why - they must PROVE their innocence and be willing to suffer confiscation of property and assets without being formally charged with a crime.  As we all know, if we are not guilty then we have nothing to hide from the state.  We must prove all our property was properly taxed and paid for - or it becomes the property of the state.  And no formal charges are needed anymore because the courts of public opinion are enough to warrant conviction and applause of the state's agents for keeping us 'safe'.  Liberty be damned.

Ah well.  History teaches that a people unmoored from their foundations will salute whomever it is they think will give them what they want - safety, security, prosperity and punishment upon their neighbors that they blame for their miseries.

This is how a nation high-step marches itself to ruin... to thunderous applause.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #139 on: September 24, 2017, 05:22:07 pm »
Not much surprises me anymore, but the fact there are people who actually think this is a good thing on a "Conservative" message board - does bewilder me.  It is an indictment of how ignorant we as a society have become of our foundations and why they were put in place the way they were.

I think we have truly arrived at the point where the Constitution truly is dead in all but name and lip service.

Tyranny is applauded and the tracks are being greased to empower the State to perform despotism, and we are reading the justification for its necessity.  Agents of the state must be PROVEN guilty and most of the time, even with enough evidence to charge - justice never comes.  Evil and treason are rewarded with more power and offices.  But a lowly citizen - why - they must PROVE their innocence and be willing to suffer confiscation of property and assets without being formally charged with a crime.  As we all know, if we are not guilty then we have nothing to hide from the state.  We must prove all our property was properly taxed and paid for - or it becomes the property of the state.  And no formal charges are needed anymore because the courts of public opinion are enough to warrant conviction and applause of the state's agents for keeping us 'safe'.  Liberty be damned.

Ah well.  History teaches that a people unmoored from their foundations will salute whomever it is they think will give them what they want - safety, security, prosperity and punishment upon their neighbors that they blame for their miseries.

This is how a nation high-step marches itself to ruin... to thunderous applause.

Good post @INVAR   It's shocking that so many are fine with such tyrannical behavior.

Offline the_doc

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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #140 on: September 24, 2017, 07:53:06 pm »
@anubias
@AbaraXas
@INVAR
@TomSea
Good post @INVAR   It's shocking that so many are fine with such tyrannical behavior.
Am I noticing that the Trumpers are the guys/gals who are most ardently defending CAF?

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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #141 on: September 24, 2017, 07:56:57 pm »
Not much surprises me anymore, but the fact there are people who actually think this is a good thing on a "Conservative" message board - does bewilder me.  It is an indictment of how ignorant we as a society have become of our foundations and why they were put in place the way they were.

I think we have truly arrived at the point where the Constitution truly is dead in all but name and lip service.

Tyranny is applauded and the tracks are being greased to empower the State to perform despotism, and we are reading the justification for its necessity.  Agents of the state must be PROVEN guilty and most of the time, even with enough evidence to charge - justice never comes.  Evil and treason are rewarded with more power and offices.  But a lowly citizen - why - they must PROVE their innocence and be willing to suffer confiscation of property and assets without being formally charged with a crime.  As we all know, if we are not guilty then we have nothing to hide from the state.  We must prove all our property was properly taxed and paid for - or it becomes the property of the state.  And no formal charges are needed anymore because the courts of public opinion are enough to warrant conviction and applause of the state's agents for keeping us 'safe'.  Liberty be damned.

Ah well.  History teaches that a people unmoored from their foundations will salute whomever it is they think will give them what they want - safety, security, prosperity and punishment upon their neighbors that they blame for their miseries.

This is how a nation high-step marches itself to ruin... to thunderous applause.
Yep. The really sad part of this is that it isn't hard to figure out when the government is doing something wrong. Just take how the worst of us are treated, and turn it around. Forget, for a second, about the scum of the Earth being kicked to crap, and turn it all around as if the same thing was being done to you. Would you get a fair trial and a fair shake? Would you, as someone innocent of wrongdoing believe you were being treated fairly? If not, there is something wrong with the way things are being done.

Our Government wasn't conceived to protect the Rights of the wealthy or the high and mighty, so much as to protect the Rights of the folks who are powerless, those people who don't have the wealth or power or even knowledge to fend for themselves. The idea that you have certain God-given Rights whether you are rich or poor, big or small, genius or dumb as a post, and that those Rights should be protected against all comers, including the Government itself, is the basis for our whole way of life in America. It especially applies to those who might be accused of a crime because that is when we are most vulnerable to being deprived of our freedom and all we own.

When those charged with the protection of those Rights craft laws which deny those concepts, they no longer protect our Rights. Those laws need to be removed which circumvent those Rights, and those entrusted to protect our Rights need to be held to the highest standards of protecting them or they need to find a different line of work.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #142 on: September 24, 2017, 08:01:54 pm »
The only love in we are having is with the United States Constitution, Amendments 4, 5, and 14. Read them some time.

Capone was finally hauled in over tax evasion, not murder or racketeering.

The keywords which require definition are "Unreasonable search and seizure"

One person's "reasonable," may be another person's "unreasonable"

Many very fine citizens think it is "reasonable" to seize the funds associated with criminal activity.

So do most courts.

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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #143 on: September 24, 2017, 08:06:28 pm »
The keywords which require definition are "Unreasonable search and seizure"

One person's "reasonable," may be another person's "unreasonable"

Many very fine citizens think it is "reasonable" to seize the funds associated with criminal activity.

So do most courts.

PROVING the funds are indeed part and profit from criminal activity would be a good place to start.

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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #144 on: September 24, 2017, 08:29:16 pm »
Then answer, what law did she break to justify the taking of her money based on the evidence they found searching her car?

If she has a good reason and can prove the money is hers then she should get it back.  They would be fools to let her just drive away with it.  Normal, law abiding people do not drive around with that kind of cash even if only from the perspective of self interest.  At least while they hold the money it is safe.  She is not losing any interest because she was not making any interest.  If she were prepared to make a large and legal purchase then that should be easy enough to prove.

I am surprised at how many people think the constitution intended to make law enforcement stupid and blind.  This is not about the government stealing money.  This is about illegal activity that at a minimum robs tax payers by not paying her portion.  It is probably even worse.  it is probably money that supports illegal drug activity -- activity that kills people, robs them of their soul and purpose if they live, and costs their families and society at large millions for rehab, for dealing with the crimes they commit while under the influence, etc.  Whatever money that industry loses is a good thing for all.  They owe it and then some.

Of course the case should make it through the court system and the money should not be kept if she is innocent.  To hold the money for a reasonable amount of time is just life.  A bank holds a deposit until the funds clear.  The lady was already playing fast and loose with the money by carting it around in the back of her car.  She is no worse off.  If she is cleared of wrong doing she is better off and lesson learned.

Defending this lady is like defending a guy wearing a suicide belt because you can't prove he was getting ready to use it illegally.   He claims he is planning on blowing up tree stumps.  Hello?  People who use explosives legitimately don't wear it that way.  People who use cash legitimately don't drive around with a quarter mil in their back seat.

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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #145 on: September 24, 2017, 08:38:42 pm »
PROVING the funds are indeed part and profit from criminal activity would be a good place to start.

Absolutely.  In the meantime it should be held and used by no one.  The lady is lucky she and her 4 kids were not murdered for the money.  If she is innocent she should be able to prove it.  Maybe she is an antiques buyer.  So where are her antiques?  This is not rocket science.  That kind of cash in the back of your car is very suspicious and carries many risks.  You might be robbed.  You might be murdered.  You might become a police suspect.  Or you might just become a yearly IRS audit victim.  If so, thank your own risky behavior.  There is no one else to blame.  Part of being an honest citizen is keeping good records of your money so you can give a proper accounting when asked.  It is part of the responsibility side of citizenship.  With rights come responsibilities.

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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #146 on: September 24, 2017, 08:53:48 pm »
If she is innocent she should be able to prove it. 

There's your problem, right there. Americans don't prove they're innocent, the legal system has to prove they're guilty. If they have no such proof, she should be on her way, unmolested... with her fortunes intact.

And how exactly, pray tell, does one prove one's cash money? Especially if it has been drawn over time from the banks? Speaking for myself, I certainly couldn't prove where my cash on hand came from. It was all legit, and came down from the bank as a formulaic part of household spending. Once it leaves the bank, there is literally no way to prove where it came from.

Quote
Maybe she is an antiques buyer.  So where are her antiques?  This is not rocket science.  That kind of cash in the back of your car is very suspicious and carries many risks.  You might be robbed.  You might be murdered.  You might become a police suspect.  Or you might just become a yearly IRS audit victim.  If so, thank your own risky behavior.  There is no one else to blame.  Part of being an honest citizen is keeping good records of your money so you can give a proper accounting when asked.  It is part of the responsibility side of citizenship.  With rights come responsibilities.

Meh. So how much cash is too much cash to be carrying around? Good deals are always cash. Having cash on hand is just good business, because if you don't have it right there, the deal will go by to the guy who does have it there.

Shoot, just having enough on hand to play in cars is tens of thousands.

And no, it is not incumbent upon me to prove where my money comes from or went - The IRS is the one who must prove that. I know. I have played that game many times.

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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #147 on: September 24, 2017, 08:58:13 pm »
If she is innocent she shouldn't have to be able to prove it. 
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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #148 on: September 24, 2017, 09:11:03 pm »
The keywords which require definition are "Unreasonable search and seizure"

One person's "reasonable," may be another person's "unreasonable"

Many very fine citizens think it is "reasonable" to seize the funds associated with criminal activity.

So do most courts.
Yep. Criminal activity, proven beyond a reasonable doubt, in a court of law.

That hasn't happened there.

It is not a requirement of Civil Asset Forfeiture laws. No person need even be charged with a crime. The asset is taken with the presumption that the asset is 'guilty' of being the result of illicit activity or used there in, and no proof is needed beyond that suspicion for the government to keep it.
Contrary to the presumption of innocence of a person, the asset is deemed 'guilty' and taken, and the only recourse is for the owner to sue the government to get it back, a proposition which is expensive and has no guarantee of returning the asset, even to someone who is innocent.


If the policeman wants to search your vehicle and you decline, is that probable cause? That is what the whole dog sniff is for--to get probable cause.

Some consider it so, because otherwise, you wouldn't have anything to hide.

As someone who commonly had a 1 ton van full of gear, computers and scientific equipment, and personal effects on the way to and from well sites, the last thing I needed would be for someone who had no regard for the contents of that vehicle, on which my making a living depended, dragging my stuff out on the side of the road and digging through it without regard for sensitive equipment. That, and when traveling from a well, I had commonly worked between 12 and 24 hours prior to loading up and driving home. Tired, but not to the point of falling asleep at the wheel, I might not be so patient, diplomatic, nor really see the need for someone to go digging through my stuff on a fishing expedition.
 
Argue with that, though, and now you are "resisting" or "interfering with an investigation", so protesting that 'there is nothing to find' is a crime, too. Now, you can be arrested for a chargeable offense.

Those who watch the shows like "Cops" may be inured to the fact that obviously the people being patted down, having their cars searched, handcuffed and having their pockets turned out invariably are doing something illegal. Yeah, what's the fun of showing mom and pop getting shook down and not getting arrested for drugs or paraphernalia? It makes for lousy reality TeeVee, but the message that gets across to the average viewer is that somehow this only happens to the guilty, never to innocent people. In the meantime, those same TV watchers will be subtly convinced this only happens to bad guys and never to people who are conducting legitimate business or simply in transit. 

If there is a reason, some probable cause other than being suspicious of everyone as a profession and seeing something they don't understand, that's one thing. Picking people at random isn't probable cause. Taking their stuff without charging them with a crime isn't right, and without convicting them, there is no standard of proof that anything is the result of illegal activity other than "suspicion" by someone who is paid to be suspicious. That's a far cry from "beyond a reasonable doubt".
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: Mother with 4 kids stopped with $237,000 cash in Rosenberg
« Reply #149 on: September 24, 2017, 09:12:30 pm »
If she has a good reason and can prove the money is hers then she should get it back.  They would be fools to let her just drive away with it.  Normal, law abiding people do not drive around with that kind of cash even if only from the perspective of self interest.  At least while they hold the money it is safe.  She is not losing any interest because she was not making any interest.  If she were prepared to make a large and legal purchase then that should be easy enough to prove.

I am surprised at how many people think the constitution intended to make law enforcement stupid and blind.  This is not about the government stealing money.  This is about illegal activity that at a minimum robs tax payers by not paying her portion.  It is probably even worse.  it is probably money that supports illegal drug activity -- activity that kills people, robs them of their soul and purpose if they live, and costs their families and society at large millions for rehab, for dealing with the crimes they commit while under the influence, etc.  Whatever money that industry loses is a good thing for all.  They owe it and then some.

Of course the case should make it through the court system and the money should not be kept if she is innocent.  To hold the money for a reasonable amount of time is just life.  A bank holds a deposit until the funds clear.  The lady was already playing fast and loose with the money by carting it around in the back of her car.  She is no worse off.  If she is cleared of wrong doing she is better off and lesson learned.

Defending this lady is like defending a guy wearing a suicide belt because you can't prove he was getting ready to use it illegally.   He claims he is planning on blowing up tree stumps.  Hello?  People who use explosives legitimately don't wear it that way.  People who use cash legitimately don't drive around with a quarter mil in their back seat.

You went off the rails of the constitution with your first sentence.

Based on the evidence reported she broke no law justifying them taking the cash. As soon as the law isn't the guiding line then you have lawlessness. Next you'll say that we should get permission, a permit, from government to carry large amounts of cash on our person. And then you wonder where our liberties went and why government is in every aspect of our lives these days. You can't have it both ways.

And regarding explosives, there are laws about carrying explosives around without a permit.