Author Topic: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States  (Read 32286 times)

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Offline thackney

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That is correct, thanks for the info.  Nevertheless, even NJ had technically abolished slavery decades earlier and was in the process of completely eliminating the institution. What they created was some sort of weird "indentured servant" clause, but in effect the people were still slaves. The last 13 slaves/"indentured servants" were freed in 1865.

The indentured servants, slaves for a limited time period happened in other Northern States as well.

http://slavenorth.com/paemancip.htm

...Yet the passage of the 1780 act ending slavery in the state reversed this trend and started indentured labor on a sudden, sharp recovery. From fewer than 400 at the end of the Revolution, Philadelphia's indentured servant population reached 2,000 by the end of the century....

....The indenture system in Pennsylvania became more severe after 1780, because the terms of service were longer. Formerly it had been limited to about seven years, and it rarely exceeded four among immigrants. Indentures generally had not lasted past age 21, for males, and 18, for females. This allowed at least the pretense of the bondsman or woman learning a trade (housework, almost always, in the case of the women) in exchange for their labor and being sent out into the world with at least a decade of productive labor or family life ahead. This was no quibble in an age when debility at 40 was common and many laboring people did not live to see 30.

Yet in Pennsylvania after 1780, the bound labor contract began to take 28 as the age of freedom. The abolition act had made it so, setting this as the age of release of children of slaves, and it would have seemed unjustified not to also do so in other cases. Shortly after the act was passed, the overseers of the poorhouse in Philadelphia began binding out children of black paupers up to age 28....

Name a southern state that was in the process of abolishing slavery even on NJ's terms.

While there was limited abolitionist support in the South, I am not aware of any state government actions along those lines in states that formed the Confederacy.
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Offline Bigun

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No, you've made mine.  Two of the bloodiest wars in this nation's history were fought - and won -against leaders who based their regimes around racial superiority over others.  Y'all's hero, Robert E. Lee, believed if slavery was supposed to end, god would make it so.  Consider the defeat of his army and destruction of the confederacy that wrath and fulfillment of will.

YOU sir are woefully ignorant on this subject!

Robert E. Lee letter dated December 27, 1856:

Quote
I was much pleased the with President's message. His views of the systematic and progressive efforts of certain people at the North to interfere with and change the domestic institutions of the South are truthfully and faithfully expressed. The consequences of their plans and purposes are also clearly set forth. These people must be aware that their object is both unlawful and foreign to them and to their duty, and that this institution, for which they are irresponsible and non-accountable, can only be changed by them through the agency of a civil and servile war. There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race. While my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more deeply engaged for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, physically, and socially. The painful discipline they are undergoing is necessary for their further instruction as a race, and will prepare them, I hope, for better things. How long their servitude may be necessary is known and ordered by a merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild and melting influences of Christianity than from the storm and tempest of fiery controversy. This influence, though slow, is sure. The doctrines and miracles of our Saviour have required nearly two thousand years to convert but a small portion of the human race, and even among Christian nations what gross errors still exist! While we see the course of the final abolition of human slavery is still onward, and give it the aid of our prayers, let us leave the progress as well as the results in the hands of Him who, chooses to work by slow influences, and with whom a thousand years are but as a single day. Although the abolitionist must know this, must know that he has neither the right not the power of operating, except by moral means; that to benefit the slave he must not excite angry feelings in the master; that, although he may not approve the mode by which Providence accomplishes its purpose, the results will be the same; and that the reason he gives for interference in matters he has no concern with, holds good for every kind of interference with our neighbor, -still, I fear he will persevere in his evil course. . . . Is it not strange that the descendants of those Pilgrim Fathers who crossed the Atlantic to preserve their own freedom have always proved the most intolerant of the spiritual liberty of others?

Note the date of the letter!

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There was plenty of resistance to the confederacy in the south as there was resistance to the war in the north. People who want all things to be a nice neat black and white contrast will always be disappointed by reality.

Booker T Washington repeatedly spoke of the vast generosity of former slaveholders and their donations to the Tuskeegee school.

@Cripplecreek

Agree on all points.

Offline mystery-ak

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Let's not re-fight the Civil War on this thread..if you want to do that start a new thread in the History Cat.
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Offline Bigun

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There was plenty of resistance to the confederacy in the south as there was resistance to the war in the north. People who want all things to be a nice neat black and white contrast will always be disappointed by reality.

Booker T Washington repeatedly spoke of the vast generosity of former slaveholders and their donations to the Tuskeegee school.

Bears repeating!  So I did!   

Offline dfwgator

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Let's not re-fight the Civil War on this thread..if you want to do that start a new thread in the History Cat.


Thank You!

HonestJohn

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Or we could look back at the Trump campaign and see the slurs against HRC......dollar bills floating around a jewish star that DT insisted was only a sheriff's badge.  The references to Goldman Sachs (oh the irony), and Trump's insistence that he didn't know anything about David Duke.   I am sure there were other subtle and not so subtle anti semitic inferences.
We can pretend there is no danger in Unite the Right and other alt-right actions........but we do so at our own peril.   Unless there are those who are unfazed by the coming plight of the Jewish people.
JMHO

Let's not forget the active robocalls made for his campaign by white supremacists... and whose contents were blatantly keeping in the that tradition.

Offline TomSea

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Let's not forget the active robocalls made for his campaign by white supremacists... and whose contents were blatantly keeping in the that tradition.

Let's do forget it. Your point of view in calling Irish Catholics like Pat Buchanan whom have no ties to the Democratic Party who has real baggage in Jim Crow and the Klan,  is ornery as well.
Now, let me get this straight, the master negotiator was out maneuvered by Turkey? Turkey?

HonestJohn

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@EC

If there is ONE "universal truth" that applies to all people and all nations everywhere it is that people who seek power over others are people who love having power over others. They might claim,and even believe themselves that they want to lead because they want to make things better for everyone,but that is only a small part of the bigger truth,which is they seek power so they can exercise power.

Up until recent decades,America was pretty unique in that we had the ability and the will to limit those who sought power and abused it. Those days are over. The REAL power in America today lies in the hands of the media and the mobs they agitate. Elected leaders are mere figureheads.

To put it in plainer language,we are now ruled by Mob Rule,and the people who own and control the media own and control the mobs.

Proof of that is even Trump is afraid to mention black or leftist violence by name,and the media is howling after him like a wolf pack that smells blood,trying to get him to name the "other hate groups whose violence he mentioned".

It is now no longer acceptable to criticize or demonize anyone but conservatives,and as much as white conservatives are abused,non-white conservatives almost need to be put into the political equivalent of witness protection programs to protect them from physical attack by the "peace-loving left".

IF/WHEN the revolution finally happens,the very first people that need to tracked down and hanged where found are the members of the media. The ONLY difference between them and the Nazi Propaganda Ministry of the Nazi's is the Nazi's loved snappy uniforms and had an official public leader that made public appearances and gave speeches. We have Soros and a few others,and they hide in the shadows and send others out to do their dirty work for them and to take all the risks.

Does anyone know what is said about 'the media'?

And notice the injection of Soros as another tie in to help get the meme across.

Offline edpc

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'How long their servitude may be necessary is known and ordered by a merciful Providence.'

How does this in any way contradict my paraphrasing?
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Offline endicom

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HonestJohn

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@Weird Tolkienish Figure

No,they're not. They don't even claim to be conservatives. The ones cheering are proud to announce they are Nazi's or some other form of cretin.

It is the MEDIA that calls them conservatives,and unfortunately,we have no one with balls in public office because if we did,they would stand up on their hind legs and call them on it.


No, they claim the conservative mantle and the press runs with it.

Offline Bigun

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'How long their servitude may be necessary is known and ordered by a merciful Providence.'

How does this in any way contradict my paraphrasing?

Your out of context paraphrase attempted to portray General Lee's position as something it patently was not!

Offline Smokin Joe

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Interesting example.  When you're married and things go badly, one partner just can't say 'OK, we're divorced' and walk away without consequence.  Especially if it's contested by the other.
Partners go to court. Nations go to war. i.e. 1776.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression


There are no "Socialists", no "Progressives", only Communists, with every negative image that totalitarianism might muster, demanding fealty and conformity to their views, with a legacy of 150,000,000 dead and counting.

Offline mystery-ak

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Offline dfwgator

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Silver Pines

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I'm not refighting either, but all one needs to do is look at the ordinances of secession of every Confederate state to confirm your point. Almost all listed slavery or equal rights of blacks as their 1st or 2nd reason. Unless one wants to say they were all lying, that's what the Confederate states said themselves, anything else is revisionism.  A few states didn't list any reasons at all in the ordinances but simply said they seceded but the reasons can be found in their legislative sessions debating the issue. Of these, only one, Missouri, listed something else, specifically Federal Soldiers occupying their capitol.

(click on each one to read the full ordinance, only the preamble is shown on the landing page- http://www.civil-war.net/pages/ordinances_secession.asp )

A few pull quotes (most go into a lot more detail over it too):

South Carolina:
Mississippi:
Georgia:
Texas:

@AbaraXas

Thank you for posting that.

That makes it about as clear as it's going to get, I think.  Why pretend otherwise?  Is it that we want to believe we were right?

The thing is, the desire to protect and perpetuate slavery wasn't right, and it was doomed to defeat one way or another.

Now let me go get a Diet Mt. Dew and settle down for the accusations of self-hating White, BLM lover, Southern traitor, etc.

Offline TomSea

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It's a joke to go after anyone as a bigot; how many of us have done anything that could be called racist or bigotted?  Good for anyone that can claim they are not.
Now, let me get this straight, the master negotiator was out maneuvered by Turkey? Turkey?

Online skeeter

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Trump to make a statement shortly

I hope he spells out each and every hate group - ALL of them. Thats the discussion America needs to have.

Offline GourmetDan

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A classic case of "Let's you and him fight."

Unfortunate that so few recognize what is really happening and look behind the curtain...
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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"January 20th 2017 will be remembered as the day the people became the rulers of this nation again."  --  President Donald J. Trump

Offline Bigun

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@AbaraXas

Thank you for posting that.

That makes it about as clear as it's going to get, I think.  Why pretend otherwise?  Is it that we want to believe we were right?

The thing is, the desire to protect and perpetuate slavery wasn't right, and it was doomed to defeat one way or another.

Now let me go get a Diet Mt. Dew and settle down for the accusations of self-hating White, BLM lover, Southern traitor, etc.

I'm still waiting for someone to show me the word or phrase in the U.S. Constitution which would prevent a state from seceeding even today. 

Offline mystery-ak

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I hope he spells out each and every hate group - ALL of them. Thats the discussion America needs to have.

He is supposed to but they will all claim it's too little too late.
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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"January 20th 2017 will be remembered as the day the people became the rulers of this nation again."  --  President Donald J. Trump

Offline mystery-ak

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Can someone explain to me who the alt-right is...are the Nazis and White Supremacist part of them?
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