Author Topic: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States  (Read 32132 times)

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Online sneakypete

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@IsailedawayfromFR @edpc
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Your moral horse is riding pretty high, isn't it?

You are taking what @sneakypete said (which happens to be factually true) and twisted it to somehow claim he is defending slavery.

The left and other "sensitive fellows" HAVE to take things out of context and twist meanings  in order to justify their brain farts. They are people who don't think,they "FEEL,and "only impolite brutes and other uncivilized people non-Meterosexuals would dare to attack feelings!"


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You should be working for CNN or MSNBC.  You have your agenda, and just need to find ways to proclaim it.

And there you have it.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 10:05:58 AM by sneakypete »
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Schlapp repeatedly pressed Cuomo to “name the crime” that would be listed on the articles of impeachment for President Donald Trump. “There’s no need for a crime,” Cuomo responded.

Offline Sanguine

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I'm going to throw a big old bone in the "refight the War" pot.

The constitution of the confederacy mandated that all confederate states honor the institution of "negro slavery".  Any states accepted into the confederacy after the fact must become slave states.  They did not allow states to choose. 

Remember also, that confederate leaders also had plans to go into Cuba and Latin America in order to expand slavery. 

Hard to argue it as a "states rights" issue.
"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." – George Mason, Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 1788

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Online sneakypete

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@Oceander

As has been pointed out to you already, the Constitution also does not contain a right-to-vote clause.  According to your logic, anyone voting is in open rebellion against the Constitution.

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If the Constitution was intended to legally bind States under it's rule for eternity, then it would have stated as such.  Similar language can be found in the Articles of Confederation, but was pointedly removed from our Constitution.  It was done so for a reason, so that States would not be bound for eternity, but would always retain their right to self-determination above and beyond the power of the remaining States.


@Hoodat   @Oceander

The Founding Fathers were trying to set up a government that was obedient to the people,not a dictatorship like they were risking their lives to leave. WHY would they fight a war  with England for their Freedom,and then turn around and once again become slaves to the state?
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Schlapp repeatedly pressed Cuomo to “name the crime” that would be listed on the articles of impeachment for President Donald Trump. “There’s no need for a crime,” Cuomo responded.

Online sneakypete

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Apparently not, since a war was fought. Face the facts: there's nothing in the USC about seceding.

@Weird Tolkienish Figure

Ahhh,the old "Might makes right!" excuse!

Did Germany and the USSR have a right to invade and occupy Poland? Since they did,I guess by YOUR standards,they did have that right,huh?
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Schlapp repeatedly pressed Cuomo to “name the crime” that would be listed on the articles of impeachment for President Donald Trump. “There’s no need for a crime,” Cuomo responded.

Online txradioguy

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I'm going to throw a big old bone in the "refight the War" pot.

The constitution of the confederacy mandated that all confederate states honor the institution of "negro slavery".  Any states accepted into the confederacy after the fact must become slave states.  They did not allow states to choose. 

Remember also, that confederate leaders also had plans to go into Cuba and Latin America in order to expand slavery. 

Hard to argue it as a "states rights" issue.

:2popcorn:
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

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Online sneakypete

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@Cripplecreek

I know you're from Michigan but cmon man.   Trump was successful in NYC.   He knows how to work the system there.   There are a lot of jewish people in a lot of influential positions there.  You cannot get a big project done there if you do not work well with jewish people.   Its ridiculous.

@Cripplecreek @driftdiver

AND his children and his grandchildren are Jewish.

There is no lie or slur the left,including the Bush Republicans/Pod People won't tell to try to harm the man that is a danger to their power and status as "insiders".
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Schlapp repeatedly pressed Cuomo to “name the crime” that would be listed on the articles of impeachment for President Donald Trump. “There’s no need for a crime,” Cuomo responded.

Online txradioguy

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@Cripplecreek @driftdiver

AND his children and his grandchildren are Jewish.

History is rife with instances that prove what you're saying doesn't matter one whit.  People will turn against family, religion, race in order to immerse themselves in an ideology they believe in.

Your argument is a straw man.

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There is no lie or slur the left,including the Bush Republicans/Pod People won't tell to try to harm the man that is a danger to their power and status as "insiders".

Psst...hey Pete...hate to break it to you...Trump is one of those insiders himself.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline TomSea

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On that topic, if one has a chance to see that picture of that African-American police officer again, one of those guys in the background is holding a pretty inflammatory sign about Jews it seems.  These guys are bad and should not be admitted to these marches in my opinion. One can have a different opinion.

Online sneakypete

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I'm going to throw a big old bone in the "refight the War" pot.

The constitution of the confederacy mandated that all confederate states honor the institution of "negro slavery".  Any states accepted into the confederacy after the fact must become slave states.  They did not allow states to choose. 

@Sanguine

Of course they had the right to choose. Nobody was forcing them to join at gunpoint. At least not at first. Once the yankees invaded the only choice was to stick together.

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Remember also, that confederate leaders also had plans to go into Cuba and Latin America in order to expand slavery. 

ROFLMAO! Slavery already existed there. What the south was doing was planning on opening trade relations with Cuba and Latin America to counter the boycott the north had put on them. 

And of course once the war ended a number of Confederates left America and went to various Central and South American countries to live.


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Hard to argue it as a "states rights" issue.

What I have trouble understanding why you people have such a hard time understanding the concept of states having rights.
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Schlapp repeatedly pressed Cuomo to “name the crime” that would be listed on the articles of impeachment for President Donald Trump. “There’s no need for a crime,” Cuomo responded.

Online txradioguy

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On that topic, if one has a chance to see that picture of that African-American police officer again, one of those guys in the background is holding a pretty inflammatory sign about Jews it seems.  These guys are bad and should not be admitted to these marches in my opinion. One can have a different opinion.

Seen the pic.  IMHO it's Pulitzer quality just for the silent message it's conveying.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline TomSea

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The South was a White Supremacist society; if one makes incendiary remarks about the North, that is one fact that can not be gotten around. Read the remarks of Calhoun, etc. And slavery would have been on the way out eventually. States like NY got rid of slavery exactly for the reason that it enabled slave rebellion. States like SC were really outnumbered by slaves, then, one has to start talking about denying voting rights and right on down the line.

Offline Sanguine

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The South was a White Supremacist society; if one makes incendiary remarks about the North, that is one fact that can not be gotten around. Read the remarks of Calhoun, etc. And slavery would have been on the way out eventually. States like NY got rid of slavery exactly for the reason that it enabled slave rebellion. States like SC were really outnumbered by slaves, then, one has to start talking about denying voting rights and right on down the line.

Stay out of what you don't know, @TomSea.  If you want to harden attitudes against your stand, this is the way to do it.
"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." – George Mason, Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 1788

“Do right and risk the consequences.”
– Sam Houston

Offline edpc

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Thanks, CNN.

You made my point.

No, you've made mine.  Two of the bloodiest wars in this nation's history were fought - and won -against leaders who based their regimes around racial superiority over others.  Y'all's hero, Robert E. Lee, believed if slavery was supposed to end, god would make it so.  Consider the defeat of his army and destruction of the confederacy that wrath and fulfillment of will.
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Offline driftdiver

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History is rife with instances that prove what you're saying doesn't matter one whit.  People will turn against family, religion, race in order to immerse themselves in an ideology they believe in.

Your argument is a straw man.

Psst...hey Pete...hate to break it to you...Trump is one of those insiders himself.

@txradioguy @sneakypete
Yep, the opinion of the Trump haters is impartial and vastly outweighs what our eyes see.  Nope, there is no bias.  Their hate and ego has not made them blind.

Nope, no sirreee    /s

Trump certainly has his problems but to say he's an anti-Semite is ludicrous.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline Sanguine

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@Sanguine

Of course they had the right to choose. Nobody was forcing them to join at gunpoint. At least not at first. Once the yankees invaded the only choice was to stick together.

ROFLMAO! Slavery already existed there. What the south was doing was planning on opening trade relations with Cuba and Latin America to counter the boycott the north had put on them. 

And of course once the war ended a number of Confederates left America and went to various Central and South American countries to live.


What I have trouble understanding why you people have such a hard time understanding the concept of states having rights.

@sneakypete, I only have time this morning to make this one comment.  Sorry, but I will be back on this evening.

 I just showed, in black and white, that the states did not have the right to make this decision.  That negates the "states-rights" argument.  Just no real way around that.
"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." – George Mason, Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 1788

“Do right and risk the consequences.”
– Sam Houston

Silver Pines

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I'm going to throw a big old bone in the "refight the War" pot.

The constitution of the confederacy mandated that all confederate states honor the institution of "negro slavery".  Any states accepted into the confederacy after the fact must become slave states.  They did not allow states to choose. 

Remember also, that confederate leaders also had plans to go into Cuba and Latin America in order to expand slavery. 

Hard to argue it as a "states rights" issue.

@Sanguine

I don't have a problem with your post.  I'm a born-and-raised Southerner and I love the south.  But I just don't see the point of trying claim slavery had nothing to do with it.  Come on---it did.

I'm not interested in refighting the Civil War.  The Revolutionary War is more interesting to me personally.

Offline edpc

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The left and other "sensitive fellows" HAVE to take things out of context and twist meanings  in order to justify their brain farts. They are people who don't think,they "FEEL,and "only impolite brutes and other uncivilized people non-Meterosexuals would dare to attack feelings!"

Other times, keyboard warriors feel like they can be a Johnny-come-lately to a thread, blitz it with posts in self-aggrandizing large font, and think they have uttered brilliance.   Nobody is impressed with your penchant for ponderous, pretentious, pansophism posting.

Nothing was taken out of context. You said the war was not exclusively about slavery. I agreed, but pointed out how it was a large part of the confederacy's foundation - accurately - based on the words of their Vice President.
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Silver Pines

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The South was a White Supremacist society; if one makes incendiary remarks about the North, that is one fact that can not be gotten around. Read the remarks of Calhoun, etc. And slavery would have been on the way out eventually. States like NY got rid of slavery exactly for the reason that it enabled slave rebellion. States like SC were really outnumbered by slaves, then, one has to start talking about denying voting rights and right on down the line.

@TomSea 

You've been corrected on this before, but let's do it one more time.

Pockets of slavery existed in the North up until the end of the war, and Yankee slave ships continued to ply their trade during that time.

Many blacks who escaped to the North met with persecution and hatred from "White Supremacist" Northerners.

That moral high horse of yours has no legs, so you might as well jump off.

Offline Cripplecreek

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@TomSea 

You've been corrected on this before, but let's do it one more time.

Pockets of slavery existed in the North up until the end of the war, and Yankee slave ships continued to ply their trade during that time.

Many blacks who escaped to the North met with persecution and hatred from "White Supremacist" Northerners.

That moral high horse of yours has no legs, so you might as well jump off.

There was plenty of resistance to the confederacy in the south as there was resistance to the war in the north. People who want all things to be a nice neat black and white contrast will always be disappointed by reality.

Booker T Washington repeatedly spoke of the vast generosity of former slaveholders and their donations to the Tuskeegee school.

Nothing should make a man happier than knowing his government couldn't care less about him.
I'd rather lose defending the constitution than win at its expense.
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Offline ABX

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@Sanguine

I don't have a problem with your post.  I'm a born-and-raised Southerner and I love the south.  But I just don't see the point of trying claim slavery had nothing to do with it.  Come on---it did.

I'm not interested in refighting the Civil War.  The Revolutionary War is more interesting to me personally.

I'm not refighting either, but all one needs to do is look at the ordinances of secession of every Confederate state to confirm your point. Almost all listed slavery or equal rights of blacks as their 1st or 2nd reason. Unless one wants to say they were all lying, that's what the Confederate states said themselves, anything else is revisionism.  A few states didn't list any reasons at all in the ordinances but simply said they seceded but the reasons can be found in their legislative sessions debating the issue. Of these, only one, Missouri, listed something else, specifically Federal Soldiers occupying their capitol.

(click on each one to read the full ordinance, only the preamble is shown on the landing page- http://www.civil-war.net/pages/ordinances_secession.asp )

A few pull quotes (most go into a lot more detail over it too):

South Carolina:
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The Constitution of the United States, in its fourth Article, provides as follows:
"No person held to service or labor in one State, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due."
This stipulation was so material to the compact, that without it that compact would not have been made. The greater number of the contracting parties held slaves, and they had previously evinced their estimate of the value of such a stipulation by making it a condition in the Ordinance for the government of the territory ceded by Virginia, which now composes the States north of the Ohio River.

Mississippi:
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It has grown until it denies the right of property in slaves, and refuses protection to that right on the high seas, in the Territories, and wherever the government of the United States had jurisdiction.
It refuses the admission of new slave States into the Union, and seeks to extinguish it by confining it within its present limits, denying the power of expansion.
It tramples the original equality of the South under foot.
It has nullified the Fugitive Slave Law in almost every free State in the Union, and has utterly broken the compact, which our fathers pledged their faith to maintain.
It advocates negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst.

Georgia:
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The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slaveholding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery.....

...The prohibition of slavery in the Territories is the cardinal principle of this organization....

Texas:
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....She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery - the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits - a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slaveholding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them? .....



Offline goodwithagun

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@Sanguine

I don't have a problem with your post.  I'm a born-and-raised Southerner and I love the south.  But I just don't see the point of trying claim slavery had nothing to do with it.  Come on---it did.

I'm not interested in refighting the Civil War.  The Revolutionary War is more interesting to me personally.

I like to say, "Oh, the CW was about states' rights? States' rights to do what?" Of course, we all know the answer was the right to deprive human beings of their rights.
I stand with Roosgirl.

Online goatprairie

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@TomSea 

You've been corrected on this before, but let's do it one more time.

Pockets of slavery existed in the North up until the end of the war, and Yankee slave ships continued to ply their trade during that time.

Many blacks who escaped to the North met with persecution and hatred from "White Supremacist" Northerners.

That moral high horse of yours has no legs, so you might as well jump off.
"Pockets of slavery existed in the North up until the end of the war, and Yankee slave ships continued to ply their trade during that time."

Certainly, the border states like Kentucky, Missouri, etc. had slaves, but what non-border union states had slaves? And what northern ships were plying the slave trade many decades after it, slave ships,  had been abolished?
All irrelevant anyway. 
If the north had been hypocrites about slavery, they would not have passed the 13th amendment abolishing slavery.

Offline thackney

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"Pockets of slavery existed in the North up until the end of the war, and Yankee slave ships continued to ply their trade during that time."

Certainly, the border states like Kentucky, Missouri, etc. had slaves, but what non-border union states had slaves? And what northern ships were plying the slave trade many decades after it, slave ships,  had been abolished?
All irrelevant anyway. 
If the north had been hypocrites about slavery, they would not have passed the 13th amendment abolishing slavery.

http://slavenorth.com/newjersey.htm

...In 1830, of the 3,568 Northern blacks who remained slaves, more than two-thirds were in New Jersey. The institution was rapidly declining in the 1830s, but not until 1846 was slavery permanently abolished. At the start of the Civil War, New Jersey citizens owned 18 "apprentices for life" (the federal census listed them as "slaves") -- legal slaves by any name.

"New Jersey's emancipation law carefully protected existing property rights. No one lost a single slave, and the right to the services of young Negroes was fully protected. Moreover, the courts ruled that the right was a 'species of property,' transferable 'from one citizen to another like other personal property.' "[10]
Thus "New Jersey retained slaveholding without technically remaining a slave state."...
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Offline Cripplecreek

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"Pockets of slavery existed in the North up until the end of the war, and Yankee slave ships continued to ply their trade during that time."

Certainly, the border states like Kentucky, Missouri, etc. had slaves, but what non-border union states had slaves? And what northern ships were plying the slave trade many decades after it, slave ships,  had been abolished?
All irrelevant anyway. 
If the north had been hypocrites about slavery, they would not have passed the 13th amendment abolishing slavery.

Runaway slaves were an issue as well. They could be free in the north but courts ruled that they could be taken back south if caught.

Its why there are underground railroad houses around where I live here in Michigan. The anti slavery sentiment was pretty strong here in Michigan so runaway hunters weren't a huge concern

Nothing should make a man happier than knowing his government couldn't care less about him.
I'd rather lose defending the constitution than win at its expense.
Hitlers are born and die every day without notice. Its the morons who put them in power that are dangerous.
You don't escape guilt by declaring that you have no choice.
Lese-majeste is my middle name

Online goatprairie

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http://slavenorth.com/newjersey.htm

...In 1830, of the 3,568 Northern blacks who remained slaves, more than two-thirds were in New Jersey. The institution was rapidly declining in the 1830s, but not until 1846 was slavery permanently abolished. At the start of the Civil War, New Jersey citizens owned 18 "apprentices for life" (the federal census listed them as "slaves") -- legal slaves by any name.

"New Jersey's emancipation law carefully protected existing property rights. No one lost a single slave, and the right to the services of young Negroes was fully protected. Moreover, the courts ruled that the right was a 'species of property,' transferable 'from one citizen to another like other personal property.' "[10]
Thus "New Jersey retained slaveholding without technically remaining a slave state."...
That is correct, thanks for the info.  Nevertheless, even NJ had technically abolished slavery decades earlier and was in the process of completely eliminating the institution. What they created was some sort of weird "indentured servant" clause, but in effect the people were still slaves. The last 13 slaves/"indentured servants" were freed in 1865.
 Name a southern state that was in the process of abolishing slavery even on NJ's terms.


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