Author Topic: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States  (Read 32048 times)

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Offline sneakypete

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"Pockets of slavery existed in the North up until the end of the war, and Yankee slave ships continued to ply their trade during that time."

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Certainly, the border states like Kentucky, Missouri, etc. had slaves, but what non-border union states had slaves? And what northern ships were plying the slave trade many decades after it, slave ships,  had been abolished?
All irrelevant anyway. 
If the north had been hypocrites about slavery, they would not have passed the 13th amendment abolishing slavery.


@goatprairie

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I know that General US Grant owned slaves right up to the day the he was ordered to free them,after the war was over. I suspect he owned them in his home state of Illinois,but can't remember for sure. He may have owned them in DC because that is where his family was during the war.

There were others,too.

Lincoln himself has stated the war had nothing to do with slavery,and if it would keep the union together,he would be content to allow it to remain.

I don't know about you,but *I* think Lincoln was the  ultimate authority on what Lincoln was thinking.

To be fair to everyone because who really knows the motives of any individual of the mid 1800's,there were some people that thought slavery should just be phased out slowly instead of just ended abruptly to allow time for the slaves being held them to be educated about what to expect and how to live as free people in order to keep them from being taken advantage of again once freed.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 07:52:32 PM by MOD3 »
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Offline Hoodat

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I've read the tenth amendment a number of times. Strange, I didn't find anything written about the right of states to secede whenever they felt like it.
Don't you think something as momentous as a  state seceding from the union would have something codified in the U.S. constitution allowing it to do so instead.

@goatprairie

You won't find anything about individuals having the right to vote either.  Don't you think something as momentous as an individual having the right to vote would have something codified in the US Constitution?

Come to think of it, there is nothing in the Constitution that grants the right to free speech either.  Go figure.  Oh sure, it places a limitation on what the legislature can do.  But it doesn't give you the right to free speech.


You've really got to twist the meaning of the amendment to interpret it as the fed. gov. okaying secession.

Let's take a closer look at that wording, shall we?

Amendment X:  The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Rights not delegated by the Constitution nor prohibited by it to the states?  Gee, that would include the right to secede.  And as it specifically says, that right would be "reserved to the states respectively".  No twisting there.  It is exactly what it says.

Just imagine living in a country where at any time some  majority of people in a state could vote for secession. Don't you think that would be kind of a crazy country?

Yet that is exactly what the United States was intended to be.  It is an additional check on the national government that makes it accountable to the States.
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Offline Hoodat

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A fact made even more clear by the fact that the Articles of Confederation, which were overthrown and done away with by the rump convention which brought forth the new Constitution,  clearly do say "perpetual  union".

So where is that perpetual union now?  Looks like all 13 states were effectively allowed to opt out of that perpetual union.


The New Constitution, which was duly adopted and is now the supreme law of this land, makes no mention of that at all!

Yep.  They made a point of doing away with all that 'perpetual union' nonsense.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-

Offline Hoodat

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Not according to Nixon's own political advisor.

And the guy who crafted Nixon's 'southern strategy' verifying this is far more validation than anything else.

Nixon won a grand total of five Southern states in 1968 - less than half.  So much for a Southern Strategy.

Besides, Republicans were the ones who had been championing civil rights for the last three decades.  Why would a bunch of racist Southern Democrats switch parties to vote for the same GOP that got the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 passed?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 08:49:21 PM by MOD3 »
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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I have read a lot of the comments on this thread, and find a woeful amount of intelligent conversation from those who propose the Confederacy was a racist-only group and that there is not rights by the states to uphold their sovereignty.

This aspect perpetuates other threads in which these two topics, slavery and secession are brought up.

It remains a fact that there is nothing but an expressive sentiment about slavery and another one about the freedom of a sovereign state to secede.

Hate to say it to you guys, but slavery is not the issue.  It is about freedom.  A state has, just like any of you, an absolute right to choose who it/he/she wishes to subjugate it/he/she to.
Yearning to stay free takes place in many ways at many different times, whether by withstanding planes or bayonets

Offline goodwithagun

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I have read a lot of the comments on this thread, and find a woeful amount of intelligent conversation from those who propose the Confederacy was a racist-only group and that there is not rights by the states to uphold their sovereignty.

This aspect perpetuates other threads in which these two topics, slavery and secession are brought up.

It remains a fact that there is nothing but an expressive sentiment about slavery and another one about the freedom of a sovereign state to secede.

Hate to say it to you guys, but slavery is not the issue.  It is about freedom.  A state has, just like any of you, an absolute right to choose who it/he/she wishes to subjugate it/he/she to.

What specific freedom did the southern states want that they felt it necessary to secede?
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Offline Bigun

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What specific freedom did the southern states want that they felt it necessary to secede?

The freedom to govern their own affairs in all the areas they had not specifically ceded to the federal government for starters!

Offline goodwithagun

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The freedom to govern their own affairs in all the areas they had not specifically ceded to the federal government for starters!

What areas?
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Offline Bigun

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What areas?

I just told you with great specificity! 

Offline Hoodat

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What specific freedom did the southern states want that they felt it necessary to secede?

It doesn't matter.  That is the equivalent of asking what someone is going to say before allowing them free speech.

States are either prohibited from seceding, or they are not.  And so far, I have not seen one single shred of Constitutional evidence indicating any such prohibition.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-

HonestJohn

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It doesn't matter.  That is the equivalent of asking what someone is going to say before allowing them free speech.

States are either prohibited from seceding, or they are not.  And so far, I have not seen one single shred of Constitutional evidence indicating any such prohibition.

But you've seen plenty of historical evidence that it is.  1,264,000 pieces of evidence.

Offline goodwithagun

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I just told you with great specificity!

Somebody upthread (a few pages ago) posted links to all the seceding states' documents for joining the CSA. They all have one thing in common.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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What specific freedom did the southern states want that they felt it necessary to secede?
Do you understand what freedom is?

Please let me know what your definition is.

Mine is to be free.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 10:02:19 PM by IsailedawayfromFR »
Yearning to stay free takes place in many ways at many different times, whether by withstanding planes or bayonets

Offline goodwithagun

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Do you understand what freedom is?

Please let me know what your definition it.

Mine is to be free.

I'm sure that what the enslaved people thought as well  :shrug:
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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@Cripplecreek 

History has also recorded that former General Nathan Bedford Forrest was very popular with the freed blacks in Tennessee after the war.

For those of you who don't know,he was the guy that started the KKK.

That general was a real military genius.  I have read up on him and he epitomizes how to win.  It does not surprise me that civilians rallied around him.  He must have been charismatic bigtime.
Yearning to stay free takes place in many ways at many different times, whether by withstanding planes or bayonets

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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I'm sure that what the enslaved people thought as well  :shrug:
Exactly who do you think enslaved people are?  Give me a good definition.
Yearning to stay free takes place in many ways at many different times, whether by withstanding planes or bayonets

Offline goodwithagun

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Exactly who do you think enslaved people are?  Give me a good definition.

Are we still talking about the Civil War :shrug:
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Online catfish1957

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But you've seen plenty of historical evidence that it is.  1,264,000 pieces of evidence.

I've resisted responding to your anti-Confederate rhetoric, claiming my ancestors were treasonous, etc.

Guess what buddy....  6 of 7 of my direct civil war ancestors did not own slaves, but fought with valor for their homeland.

So answer this.   A foreign power invades your land.  (Which the north did first in VA), threatening your economic well being, and way of life.  You just lay down? 

You have been seriously brainwashed by the PC history revisionist. 
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Are we still talking about the Civil War :shrug:
You chose to say it, so say it, with gusto.
Yearning to stay free takes place in many ways at many different times, whether by withstanding planes or bayonets

Offline goodwithagun

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I stand with Roosgirl.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Are you intoxicated or illiterate?

You made a statement.  I asked for a definition.

Do you require remedial help?
Yearning to stay free takes place in many ways at many different times, whether by withstanding planes or bayonets

Offline Bigun

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Somebody upthread (a few pages ago) posted links to all the seceding states' documents for joining the CSA. They all have one thing in common.

So what!  That doesn't have one damned thing to do with the subject of this conversation!

Offline goodwithagun

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It doesn't matter.  That is the equivalent of asking what someone is going to say before allowing them free speech.

States are either prohibited from seceding, or they are not.  And so far, I have not seen one single shred of Constitutional evidence indicating any such prohibition.

I agree that states have the right to secede. My issue isn't about states' right to seced; it's about why these particular states chose that path.
I stand with Roosgirl.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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So what!  That doesn't have one damned thing to do with the subject of this conversation!
I think he left to have another drink.
Yearning to stay free takes place in many ways at many different times, whether by withstanding planes or bayonets

Offline goodwithagun

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Are you intoxicated or illiterate?

You made a statement.  I asked for a definition.

Do you require remedial help?

Haha! I was about to type the same thing to you but backspaced!
I stand with Roosgirl.


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