Author Topic: Supreme Court to hear case of baker's refusal to make wedding cake for gay couple  (Read 8731 times)

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Online roamer_1

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If it were truly discriminatory for a restaurant bakery etc to refuse service...then every fast food joint in America would be sued out of existence for this sign:



Note that it says nothing at all about pants. Jussayin.

Wingnut

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Time for SCOTUS to stop the lower activist courts from continually ruling that  gay rights trump everyone else's rights.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 08:20:11 pm by Wingnut »

Offline thackney

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Well, I *don't* agree with the principle in the context of a public lunch counter that refuses to serve blacks.  I think it's a stupid policy and if *I* owned a lunch counter it would not be one of my policies, but it is a privately owned business and as such should be able to run the business any damn way they please.  People who agree with that policy can eat there and people who disagree can go elsewhere.

Refusing to serve blacks at a lunch counter is a false analogy.  They did not refuse the couple baked goods, they offered other products besides a same-sex wedding cake.

The lunch counter analogy only works if the guy demanded a special sandwich for "blacks only".
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Thanks, again, Thackney, for the link.   A business owner can discriminate on the basis of the content of the message.  A t-shirt printer, for example, can reserve the right not to print an obscene message.  Where Masterpiece likely erred is in refusing the customer's business on an absolute basis.   It didn't reject a message the customer wanted placed on the cake - the business was refused solely on the basis of the owner's political opposition to same sex marriage, which the court concluded was unlawful discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.
A wedding cake is a message all to itself. If the business owner objects on a religious basis to same-sex marriage, to produce a wedding cake would conflict with their beliefs.
 
How can the State hold the business owner liable for a political opposition to a union the State, itself, did not recognize as legitimate at the time the service was refused?
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline RoosGirl

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Agreed. And let the market decide.
Likely as not, real bias will be greeted with little success and the business will fold up. Simple and effective, without any need for lawyers at all.

Exactly my point.  I doubt the business would be in business for long.  And, I would rather give my money to someone who more closely held the same beliefs as me than someone who hated me but was forced to serve me.

Offline Jazzhead

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If it were truly discriminatory for a restaurant bakery etc to refuse service...then every fast food joint in America would be sued out of existence for this sign:



That's not arbitrary discrimination.   That's discrimination for a reason - the customer isn't wearing shoes.

It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Offline RoosGirl

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Refusing to serve blacks at a lunch counter is a false analogy.  They did not refuse the couple baked goods, they offered other products besides a same-sex wedding cake.

The lunch counter analogy only works if the guy demanded a special sandwich for "blacks only".

I understand, but I would rather it be looked at as a more general idea; that of businesses being forced to serve anyone.  I believe a business should be able to deny service to any person for any reason, even if most of think the reasons are stupid.

Offline txradioguy

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That's not arbitrary discrimination.   That's discrimination for a reason - the customer isn't wearing shoes.

The baker's decision wasn't arbitrary either.  It was for a legitimate Constitutionally protected right.
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If a Christian believes that homosexuality is a sin, then he/she shouldn't practice it.   I have nothing whatsoever against scriptural belief - up to the point where such belief serves as an excuse for violating the law's protections. 

The baker's obligations under the law are clear.  Render under Caesar what is Caesar's, and treat your fellow citizens with the dignity and respect you'd expect from others.

@Jazzhead

However, God's law is above man's law.  Christians won't break God's law in order to follow man's law.

Personal participation in the sin, whatever it might be, isn't the only issue.   

Aiding, abetting, facilitating, furthering the cause of (etc.) any sin is to be avoided.


Offline Jazzhead

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@Jazzhead

However, God's law is above man's law.  Christians won't break God's law in order to follow man's law.

Personal participation in the sin, whatever it might be, isn't the only issue.   

Aiding, abetting, facilitating, furthering the cause of (etc.) any sin is to be avoided.

Fine.  But be prepared to pay the fine or other legal consequence of unlawful, arbitrary discrimination.   Perhaps the baker will be rewarded for his actions in Heaven.  But on earth, he's obliged to obey the law.   If he say's he's in business to bake wedding cakes for the general public, then he should live up to his word, without unlawfully discriminating.   
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Offline XenaLee

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@Jazzhead

However, God's law is above man's law.  Christians won't break God's law in order to follow man's law.

Personal participation in the sin, whatever it might be, isn't the only issue.   

Aiding, abetting, facilitating, furthering the cause of (etc.) any sin is to be avoided.

Exactly.
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Offline Jazzhead

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The baker's decision wasn't arbitrary either.  It was for a legitimate Constitutionally protected right.

Of course it was.  He advertised that he bakes wedding cakes.  But just not for this couple.   
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Offline XenaLee

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Fine.  But be prepared to pay the fine or other legal consequence of unlawful, arbitrary discrimination.   Perhaps the baker will be rewarded for his actions in Heaven.  But on earth, he's obliged to obey the law.   If he say's he's in business to bake wedding cakes for the general public, then he should live up to his word, without unlawfully discriminating.

Fine.   Then we (Christians, who still make up a majority of the nation) will just change the damned law.  And enjoy the screeching from the left when we do.

Discrimination laws should not apply or outweigh the constitutionally guaranteed rights granted by our founders re: freedom of religion.  Period. 

No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Fine.  But be prepared to pay the fine or other legal consequence of unlawful, arbitrary discrimination.   Perhaps the baker will be rewarded for his actions in Heaven.  But on earth, he's obliged to obey the law.   If he say's he's in business to bake wedding cakes for the general public, then he should live up to his word, without unlawfully discriminating.
So, let me get this straight. The Baker, according to you, should be fined and punished for refusing to bake a cake celebrating a union that is anathema to his (First Amendment protected) religious beliefs AND not recognized by the State (of Colorado, the law), which it was not at the time (which is why the "wedding" was in Mass. and the reception in Colo.).

So, either you would void his First Amendment freedom of religion

Or force him to comply with a law to not discriminate against something politically when the State did, in fact, do just that.

If Caesar didn't claim it, how can it be 'Caesar's"? And don't pull any ex post facto stuff out of your beanie, either.
 
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Of course it was.  He advertised that he bakes wedding cakes.  But just not for this couple.
What foul? The state of Colorado didn't acknowledge the "wedding" either.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online roamer_1

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And don't pull any ex post facto stuff out of your beanie, either.

It is a beanie, you know. Not a yarmulke.

Offline INVAR

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Fine.  But be prepared to pay the fine or other legal consequence of unlawful, arbitrary discrimination.

And what if we refuse?

We fought a bloody revolution against people with your mindset.  You want a rematch?

Perhaps the baker will be rewarded for his actions in Heaven.  But on earth, he's obliged to obey the law.

We are not obligated to obey any law that contravenes the Law of God which our entire nation's legal construct was based in principle upon.

Tyrants could pass a 'law' that we must all bow down towards Washington when a bell rings or to turn in all white male babies under two years of age for disposal, and we are under no obligation to obey such a command.

  If he say's he's in business to bake wedding cakes for the general public, then he should live up to his word, without unlawfully discriminating.

I'm all for discriminating against evil and those who push it.  You can shove your advocacy to criminalize our  freedom of religion, association, conscience and service as 'unlawful'.  We retain our liberties with extreme prejudice against the likes of wannabe meddlesome tyrants like you.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Smokin Joe

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It is a beanie, you know. Not a yarmulke.
I can spell beanie!
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Silver Pines

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Fine.  But be prepared to pay the fine or other legal consequence of unlawful, arbitrary discrimination.   Perhaps the baker will be rewarded for his actions in Heaven.  But on earth, he's obliged to obey the law.   If he say's he's in business to bake wedding cakes for the general public, then he should live up to his word, without unlawfully discriminating.

Sorry, we have freedom to practice religion in this country.




Offline INVAR

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If Caesar didn't claim it, how can it be 'Caesar's"? And don't pull any ex post facto stuff out of your beanie, either.

Marriage never belonged to Caesar to begin with.

He appropriated what was never his to exert authority over.

As such, he has no authority in regards to marriage. 

He or his agents or his courts unless they are upholding the Divine Authority first and foremost - of which Homosexuality is an abomination and not applicable to be considered part of the sacrament/covenant made with husband and wife and God.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

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I can spell beanie!

Help Cecil Help!....  I'm coming Beanie Boy!

Offline Smokin Joe

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Help Cecil Help!....  I'm coming Beanie Boy!
888high58888 (I almost put " and Cecil, too!") ^-^
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 09:10:43 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline txradioguy

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Of course it was.  He advertised that he bakes wedding cakes.  But just not for this couple.

No different than McDonalds saying we sell hamburgers...unkess you don't have a shirt on...or shoes.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Wingnut

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It is a beanie, you know. Not a yarmulke.

Did you hear the one about the Priest, The Evangelist and the Rabbi who lived on the same block and all bought New Cadillacs?
Well, one Saturday the Priest came out to his driveway with a spector and holy water pail and proceeded to bless his new Caddy.  The Evangelist was mowing his grass and witnessed the Priest's acts and not to be out done, walked over to his new car and began the laying on of hands ritual invoking the Holy Spirit to safeguard his ride.  Now the Rabbi who was washing his Cadillac and watch both of the priest and Ministers actions put his hose down and went into the garage to fetch a hacksaw.  He walked to the rear of the car, bent down and proceeded to cut a 1/4 inch off his tailpipe.


Online roamer_1

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Did you hear the one about the Priest, The Evangelist and the Rabbi who lived on the same block and all bought New Cadillacs?
Well, one Saturday the Priest came out to his driveway with a spector and holy water pail and proceeded to bless his new Caddy.  The Evangelist was mowing his grass and witnessed the Priest's acts and not to be out done, walked over to his new car and began the laying on of hands ritual invoking the Holy Spirit to safeguard his ride.  Now the Rabbi who was washing his Cadillac and watch both of the priest and Ministers actions put his hose down and went into the garage to fetch a hacksaw.  He walked to the rear of the car, bent down and proceeded to cut a 1/4 inch off his tailpipe.

LOL! Almost as good as 'Should we tell him where the rocks are?"

 888high58888